Nero for Linux!!!!!!

[piratePenguin]

I've gotten sick of arguing about the technical and other differences between free and non-free software, so now I just stick to what's given... non-free software developers insist on greed (generally), free software dev's do not, while GPL pushers insist on freedom.

That tends to do it for me.

[Calum]

i dont care about capitols.

or spelling apparently. :-)

it's a void argument by the way in a sense, because if Free software really is "better" then it will "win" in the end. and if it's not, then everything it claims about itself might well be rubbish. The proof is definitely in the pudding, and i am confident that Free Open Source Software can put its "money" (or whatever) where its mouth is.

[yahurd]

My point exactly, no one will ever consider releasing some proprietary software for Linux without making it compatible with the existing formats which are open therefore proprietary software on Linux is unlikely to create vendor lock-in.

don't you see how easy it would be for someone to make a proprietary fork that was really good, and then once it was the standard, change things?, although i may be getting a bit too used to Microsoft.

 

Where did I say that?

Would you please evidence to back up your claim, like a quote and a link to the post?

sure(if i could find it!)

 

How does Firefox win?

Perhaps it's because Opera has more known vulnerabilities than Firefox, but it doesn't matter since unlike Firefox they've all been patched.

I don't see how having more known unfixed vulnerabilities than Opera is good news for Firefox.

Obviously this only deals with known exploits because it's impossible to deal with the unknown exploits!

Sure, Opera might have more unfixed unknown vulnerabilities than Firefox, Firefox could have more unknown vulnerabilities than Opera.
You could argue that only the known vulnerabilities are more important since they can be used for an attack, there again so can the vulnerabilities that we don't know about but the attackers do either there's no point in arguing this because there is no way of proving which browser has the most unknown vulnerabilities we can only go on what we know.

what i mean is, Firefox is very secure in that it tells you when you visit phishing sites, Firefox 3 will have built in sandbox, and more features like that, and correct me if I'm wrong but aren't those vulnerabilities tied to a specific extension?

 

I don't know but tell that to a Mac OS fanboy and they'll probably list the features copied from Mac OS.

im pretty sure twin paneled file management and other things designed for productivity are kde creations

 

Netscape more innovative than Opera?
That's debatable.

Opera was released in 1996 just as Netscape was on the wain due to MS illegally bundling IE with Windows and lack of innovation on their part probably had a hand in it too. No doubt, Opera has borrowed from Netscape but it added new features, look at it another way Netscape has gone and Opera is still here which is mainly due to innovation.

if innovation dictated it Microsoft wouldn't exist, but it does so that cant be true, besides if Microsoft hadn't killed them they would STILL be innovating
but, lets agree to disagree

 

Running Windows doesn't mean anything. Actually, I agree with your remark regarding Windows being a piece of shit, all that fucking DRM!

I was making the point that a Windows fanboy might find that remark offensive.

THEY DONT EXIST!

 

Was it that funny? Well thanks, could you please highlight what you found funny so I'll remember to tell the joke again.

My motherboard doesn't currently dictate what I do with my software, my television doesn't tell me what to watch (not even ONE properly configured V-chip in this household), and my calculator doesn't tell me not to include Liquid Paper as an office expense. All of those have open initiatives in one form or another to prevent that from happening in the future. Why should I settle for whatever short-sighted purpose the original vendor decided to give my 1's and 0's? Why should I PAY to see their short-sighted purpose? If they want to help me adapt, by all means, charge for that. But I don't appreciate being told to pay for something I can't adapt to my needs. I wouldn't buy a car without asking questions about the engine, and if the hood won't open, I won't buy it.

to which you replied

Doesn't Windows look at the motherboard to ensure you don't upgrade your PC?

keep in mind orethrius's signature

Proudly posted from a Gentoo Linux system.

"Linux: Because 22,000 students in Indiana can't be wrong." -pofnlice
"moan bitch moan" -Pathos

System Vitals
Trigger 2.6 P4 @ 1024MB, 500+ GB, Gentoo
Darkstar 450 P3 @ 192MB, ~ 2 GB, Gentoo
Leviathan 1.8T64 @ 512MB, ~ 80 GB, Gentoo
Frankystein 1.6 P4 @ 384MB, ~ 40 GB, Gentoo, LCD Failure

so, no, his computer doesn't tell him what to do!
 

No, don't be silly. I wouldn't say that FreeDOS or even Mandriva are anything like Kubuntu!

that was my point! it is absurd to say that! just as it is absurd to say that windows controls orethrius's motherboard as he is 100% Gentoo!

 

You will obviously find that the performance of programs will differ between Windows and Wine. I haven't tried MS Office in WINE so I can't possibly comment on this.

One thing I can comment on is memory usage, I've found that MS Office mostly uses less memory than OpenOffice. I don't believe that this can vary much between WINE and Windows. A program mallocs what it wants, there is no reason why a should suddenly decide to use more memory under WINE or Windows because it doesn't actually know what OS it's running under. I suppose there could be difference between how much memory a GUI object uses but it shouldn't be that great.

There again, I suppose we're talking about personal experience again, yours will differ from mine.

what i mean is word is built into the operating system so before you even start it, it has been half-way opened! so of course it starts faster! on an os that it isnt built into it starts up 10 seconds slower than the windows openoffice!

 

OpenOffice 2.0? That's so last year!

I'm using OpenOffice 2.1 and it's a myth that all of those issues have been resolved.

Here's an example, OpenOffice formula doesn't support more that one line but MS Equation does.

Open Word, go to insert object, MS Equation, enter a formula containing several lines, save the file.

Now try to open the file in OpenOffice and see what happens to your formula!

Just because you haven't had any compatibility problems, it doesn't mean that other people haven't.

I understand that people only have such compatibility problems with OpenOffice.org because MS has locked them into using their products. Regardless of the the cause these compatibility problems still exist and are a major reason for people choosing MS Office over OpenOffice.org.

that is NOT playing catchup that is far ahead of microsoft office not opening odfs at all! openoffice opens its native files perfectly so to be fair you should compare native files not conversion!
also, you know i meant 2.x!

[Aloone_Jonez]

don't you see how easy it would be for someone to make a proprietary fork that was really good, and then once it was the standard, change things?, although i may be getting a bit too used to Microsoft.

No because the GPL wouldn't allow that to happen.
 

sure(if i could find it!)

Well that's because I've never said such a thing. :-)

I think you've misunderstood me (a recurring theme here).
 
http://www.microsuck.com/forums/showpost.php?p=121569&postcount=47
http://www.microsuck.com/forums/showpost.php?p=121583&postcount=49
http://www.microsuck.com/forums/showpost.php?p=121603&postcount=51

I was responding to LiquidOxygen and the only thing I corrected was that he was confusing his personal opinion for fact.

im pretty sure twin paneled file management and other things designed for productivity are kde creations

Damn, I fotgot to mention the origional inspiration for the creation KDE.

what i mean is, Firefox is very secure in that it tells you when you visit phishing sites, Firefox 3 will have built in sandbox, and more features like that, and correct me if

Good, may be I'll use it, if the sandbox is good enough to totally insulate my system from any bugs in the extensions and it includes full zooming, window tilling and a decient download manager.

I'm wrong but aren't those vulnerabilities tied to a specific extension?

No, they affect the whole program.

THEY DONT EXIST!

I didn't say they didn't exist.

My only point was that you found it offensive when I stated my opinion that Opera is better than Firefox. which you found obnoxious, you then stated your opinion the Windows is a piece of shit which a Windows supporter might find obnoxious.

What I mean is if you're offended when people go around saying things like "Firefox fucking sucks", then don't go around saying things like "Internet Explorer fucking sucks".

To be honest, it doesn't bother me if someone were to say "Opera fucking sucks", it's a piece of software for fuck sake! It it isn't like someone's said something bad about me or a member of my family! The software I use is just a means to an end as far as I'm concerned, it's just a tool to get a job done.

I first used Internet Explorer, then I found Firefox which was better to I started using it, eventually I came across Opera which is even better and is why I'm using it today, if tomorrow Firfox gets better than Opera than I'll switch to it immediately.

I suppose I can understand people getting emotional when it comes to arguing about proprietary vs open source as it's a whole ideology but I find it quite pathetic that people get so emotional when someone doesn't like some of the software they use.

so, no, his computer doesn't tell him what to do!

that was my point! it is absurd to say that! just as it is absurd to say that windows controls orethrius's motherboard as he is 100% Gentoo!

Alright, fair enough, I cocked that one up!

I was trying to make the point that, the motherboard manufacturers collaborate with MS; i.e. they only share their specs with them. So yes, if your motherboard doesn't support Linux then in effect it is telling you what OS to run! If your hardware was all open source then this wouldn't happen. I was making the point that many of the arguments that apply to open source software apply to hardware so if you believe that boycoting closed source software is a good decision then perhaps you should either rethink it or be more careful about your choice of hardware.

what i mean is word is built into the operating system so before you even start it, it has been half-way opened! so of course it starts faster! on an os that it isnt built into it starts up 10 seconds slower than the windows openoffice!

That, isn't true, I'm using Windows XP and I don't even have MS Office installed!

MS Office isn't like Internet Explorer, it isn't part of Windows, it's a separate piece of software!

Comparing the performance of programs under Windows vs WINE makes absolutely no sense whatsoever!

that is NOT playing catchup that is far ahead of microsoft office not opening odfs at all! openoffice opens its native files perfectly so to be fair you should compare native files not conversion!
also, you know i meant 2.x!

Point taken, but I was responding to your comment:

no you cant but you CAN open the .doc and save in .doc so it doesnt matter! from what you say it seems like you need to try 2.0 i dont think you have, you may have tried 1.x but 2.0 deals with all the issues

Whether it's right or wrong, many people won't migrate to OpenOfice.org because it won't 100% reliably open up or save MS Office documents. They don't give a fuck about ODF, been able to save in a format that no one else uses makes difference to the average user. They'd rather it save in MS Office formats which is what they (rightly or wrongly) consider to be the standard.

I was also making another point; OpenOffice.org lacks some of the features of MS Office, in this respect it is behind of Microsoft Office and is playing catch up.

[offtopic]I've been playing devil's advocate a lot of the time. Yes, I do support open source software, no I don't think there's anything wrong with proprietary software but I'm not realing trying to convert people here just hopegfully get them to look at things from another perspective.

I don't like Microsoft but if this forum was full of M$ Winblow$ $ux A$$ posts it would be pretty boring. What many people here don't realise is that when I first joined this forum, I didn't take it seriously, I made a few silly posts, then realised that this forum has a point but people can get carried away. All too often I see posts critisising Windows or Microsoft but contain more emotion i.e. hate than reasoning. Getting it off your chest is fair enough but saying things like "Microsoft is evil :insert totally unfounded bullshit reason here: they should be shot!" doesn't really give a good impression to people searching the forums; it won't encourage many people to adopt thier cause.

Some people may think I'm trolling but I prefer to call it spicing up the debate a little. [/offtopic]

[GenuineAdvantage]

Ah man, do we really give a fig what Win drones archive at their stupid jobs with whatever Win software anyways? Not me. Much like in the case of PC "gamers", it seems pretty self important to me to make such a stink about a software feature that isn't really that universally used and condemning software that lacks it. Same with photoshop. Like it really matters that some doofus can't photoshop some gag pics without the latest Photoshop CS XT PRXLT. Like it really matters that some dumbass needs to write his Psycholoconjobs 101 essays in .doc files since his dumbass professor demands it. Not everything revolves around a couple of applications.

[yahurd]

Ah man, do we really give a fig what Win drones archive at their stupid jobs with whatever Win software anyways? Not me. Much like in the case of PC "gamers", it seems pretty self important to me to make such a stink about a software feature that isn't really that universally used and condemning software that lacks it. Same with photoshop. Like it really matters that some doofus can't photoshop some gag pics without the latest Photoshop CS XT PRXLT. Like it really matters that some dumbass needs to write his Psycholoconjobs 101 essays in .doc files since his dumbass professor demands it. Not everything revolves around a couple of applications.

that does remind me, WHY do "gamers" think they are god, wtf???
on forums and in real life they think they are SOOOOOOOOO amazing
now that i think about it they hear "you slayed the beast" and "you did it, you win you rock" all day long ugh

[piratePenguin]

that does remind me, WHY do "gamers" think they are god, wtf???

BECAUSE THEY GOT 15 KILLS WITHOUT ONE DEATH IN UNREAL TOURNAMENT => GODLIKE!

(I can't even remember how many kills it takes for that anymore. Yey for me \o )

[Calum]

yahurd, MS office is a separate package and is in no way part of microsoft's "operating" systems.

jonez, what yahurd was saying about MS office (i think) is that, since microsoft do not publish the complete API for MS windows, their software developers (of non-OS packages) have access to priveleged information, ie: the full windows API, while third parties (Nero, Sun, Adobe etc) have only got access to the officially published part of the API. This obviously gives the developers of products like MS office the jump over products such as staroffice and openoffice.

This seems logical to me, but still, i think open source software should be able to close this gap simply by being better! :-)

[yahurd]

yahurd, MS office is a separate package and is in no way part of Microsoft's "operating" systems.

jonez, what yahurd was saying about MS office (i think) is that, since microsoft do not publish the complete API for MS windows, their software developers (of non-OS packages) have access to privileged information, ie: the full windows API, while third parties (Nero, Sun, Adobe etc) have only got access to the officially published part of the API. This obviously gives the developers of products like MS office the jump over products such as staroffice and openoffice.

This seems logical to me, but still, i think open source software should be able to close this gap simply by being better! :-)

yes that is exactly what i mean, however windows 98, on a fresh install, did some weird thing and i found Microsoft office in the registry and on a not fresh upgrade from 95 to 98, the computer (which had office 95) kept getting an odd "Microsoft word cannot open because a newer version is conflicting with Microsoft word 95. please either reinstall the current version or uninstall the newer version, it is recommended you reinstall the current version as uninstalling the newer version may damage the current installation" it could have been a trial but i get paranoid about windows 98

[yahurd]

No because the GPL wouldn't allow that to happen.

it has taken competitors a long while to become msoffice compatible because it was proprietary, all an office suite would have to do is open-save odfs, if it was fantastic and came from a well known source, and gained 80% marketshare in a year and then decided to make some proprietary extensions, viola lock-in

 

I was responding to LiquidOxygen and the only thing I corrected was that he was confusing his personal opinion for fact.

boy my face is red
 

Damn, I fotgot to mention the origional inspiration for the creation KDE.

you mean making Linux usable to beginners, gratis? doesn't mean they have done innovation after that amarok, for instance
 

full zooming

yes

 

window tilling

no

 

decent download manager.

probably not yet, but its getting better very quickly


 

My only point was that you found it offensive when I stated my opinion that Opera is better than Firefox. which you found obnoxious, you then stated your opinion the Windows is a piece of shit which a Windows supporter might find obnoxious.

guess i was a bit cocky

 

I was trying to make the point that, the motherboard manufacturers collaborate with MS; i.e. they only share their specs with them. So yes, if your motherboard doesn't support Linux then in effect it is telling you what OS to run! If your hardware was all open source then this wouldn't happen. I was making the point that many of the arguments that apply to open source software apply to hardware so if you believe that boycotting closed source software is a good decision then perhaps you should either rethink it or be more careful about your choice of hardware.

 

Trigger        2.6 P4 @ 1024MB, 500+ GB, Gentoo
Darkstar       450 P3 @ 192MB,  ~ 2  GB, Gentoo
Leviathan      1.8T64 @ 512MB,  ~ 80 GB, Gentoo
Frankystein    1.6 P4 @ 384MB,  ~ 40 GB, Gentoo, LCD Failure

hes all macs too!

 

it's wrong, many people won't migrate to OpenOfice.org because it won't 100% reliably open up or save MS Office documents. They don't give a fuck about ODF, been able to save in a format that no one else uses makes difference to the average user. They'd rather it save in MS Office formats which is what they wrongly consider to be the standard.

true, but it has a good compatibility and for internal use, a
 

I was also making another point; OpenOffice.org lacks some of the features of MS Office, in this respect it is behind of Microsoft Office and is playing catch up.

fair enough but would you mind stating those features? im just curious

[Calum]

yes, i have often noticed things like MSN messenger, ms outlook, visual basic etc directories in windows. i suspect it's all part of their plan to "cheat" by sticking some of it in the OS already. after all, you can't run MS office on anything but windows, so they can put some of the code in the OS. and of course this would make it even harder to run MS office under for instance wine, i would have thought.

[yahurd]

Whoooaaaaaaa!!!!

Guys, I didn't mean to start a war here....I just really like Nero, and I thought it was great that a mainstream program is being ported to Linux. Which means that Linux is finally being recognized as a viable option to Windoze.

its big news. that is the only way to react to big news and thank you as orethrius reminded me.

[Aloone_Jonez]

it has taken competitors a long while to become msoffice compatible because it was proprietary, all an office suite would have to do is open-save odfs, if it was fantastic and came from a well known source, and gained 80% marketshare in a year and then decided to make some proprietary extensions, viola lock-in

Why should you worry about a bit of competition?

If you believe that free software is better than proprietary software then that won't happen and if they've written a superiour product then I'm all for it. Still I can't see this happening on Linux, not with all the GNU fanboys around, for example if MS released MS Office for Linux could you seriously see it included with many distros?
 

probably not yet, but its getting better very quickly

Will it resume downloads that have been suspended due to a power failure or temporary disconnection?

fair enough but would you mind stating those features? im just curious

I'm sure there are many but the one I've noticed (and mentioned before in this thread) is the formula editor isn't as user friendly and it doesn't support more than one line. Apart from being a general pain in the arse, it gets worse when you need to open a Word document with formulae containing more than one line.

You also mentioned about how MS Office doesn't support ODF, well there are third party filters available and MS are actually supporting an open source project to create a filter for Word 97!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument_software#Microsoft

[yahurd]

Will it resume downloads that have been suspended due to a power failure or temporary disconnection?

as i said, not yet but soon

You also mentioned about how MS Office doesn't support ODF, well there are third party filters available and MS are actually supporting an open source project to create a filter for Word 97!

my point is, in the support for competiters programs, openoffice is lightyears ahead.

[Aloone_Jonez]

Still, aren't you surprised that Microsoft, (yes Microsoft of all people) are supporting an open source project to add ODF support to MS Word?

I suppose as OpenOffice.org's user-base grows particularly over in the far east, businesses here will need to be able to inter-operate with them so MS will eventually have no choice but to support it.