apache win32 port

[voidmain]

Isn't IIS a total waste of precious Internet bandwidth?!?  My IDS database (Snort/Acid) is flooded with CodeRed hits (among all sorts of other bullshit from Infected IIS servers).

99% of the security hits are from infected IIS servers. Believe me, I've been tempted to go to every one of the IP addresses in my database and use that backdoor root kit that is obviously installed on the systems to reformat their drives for them!

As far as Karen's situation, you may be right.  I started back when it "was" rocket science to get a Linux box up. I've just seen so many newbie success stories here that I really think she will not have a problem. If no progress is made after a couple hours of investment then save it for a rainy day.

[lu666s]

quote: My IDS database (Snort/Acid) is flooded with CodeRed hits (among all sorts of other bullshit from Infected IIS servers).

My clients wondered how come their stats got a hefty increase in october/november! I had to disallow a whole slew of critts in webalizer config.


 

quote: 99% of the security hits are from infected IIS servers. Believe me,

I do, in my case it was the same ratio.


 

quote: As far as Karen's situation, you may be right. I started back when it "was" rocket science to get a Linux box up. I've just seen so many newbie success stories here that I really think she will not have a problem.

I remember those times too. At first I hosted through a HSP resale, but then I decided for co-lo, in order to make it more profitable and to be able to offer custom configurations, not pre-packaged cookie-cuttery setup. Before that, clients thought I am a god, afterwards, they thought I am THE GOD himself!

It is way easier nowadays, almost less demanding than install of w2k/xpee, but it may be a dangerous plunge if Karen switches systems entirely without the possibility to fall back, especially as production is concerned. For all I know, it may take her a week, actually, to sit on the fence.

[voidmain]

Sounds like we have very similar experience.

 

quote:Originally posted by lu666s:

It is way easier nowadays, almost less demanding than install of w2k/xpee, but it may be a dangerous plunge if Karen switches systems entirely without the possibility to fall back, especially as production is concerned. For all I know, it may take her a week, actually, to sit on the fence.

I tried to say not to change where she is doing her developing immediately (if at all).  But to instead find another machine to install Linux on.  Certainly I did not say for her to wipe out what she has and install Linux on her current machine.  Finding and installing on a discarded PC would not be dangerous in the least.

[kjg]

quote:Originally posted by VoidMain:

As far as Karen's situation, you may be right.  I started back when it "was" rocket science to get a Linux box up. I've just seen so many newbie success stories here that I really think she will not have a problem. If no progress is made after a couple hours of investment then save it for a rainy day.

 

quote:Originally posted by lu666s:


It is way easier nowadays, almost less demanding than install of w2k/xpee, but it may be a dangerous plunge if Karen switches systems entirely without the possibility to fall back, especially as production is concerned. For all I know, it may take her a week, actually, to sit on the fence.

Well, of course, you're both right. It would probably be a good and wise thing to start thinking about setting up a linux system, and I'm probably not going to do it real soon. To clear up one possible misconception - I'm working on a private project that may not (probably won't) ever make me any money. But what I learn in doing it might, down the road. It will at least give me a skill set that isn't as common as the one I have now (basically, html coding).

BUT... (warning, philosophical ranting ahead. Those not philosophically inclined may wish to avert their eyes to avoid unpleasant thinking sensations)

My take on this whole apache/win32, and the larger issue of linux vs win is this: Computer users are (in my view) divided into two groups: Code-warriors and code-wimps. Code-wimps are, for the most part, at the mercy of code-warriors, because they can't do anything that some code-warrior hasn't figured out how to do AND build a snazzy GUI front-end for the wimps to use. That's how Micros(uck)oft has obtained a virtual monopoly on desktop systems - and that won't change until *nix and *BSD people are equally willing to build those easy GUIs for their stuff.

Here's why: A lot of people in here speak disparagingly of windows users (and I suppose even my "wimp" term is some what derogatory), but the fact is, probably 80% of the people who use computers these days DON'T CARE and DON'T NEED to care about the code, or what goes on behind the monitor screen, in order to do what they need to do in their daily jobs/life.

An analogy: your average homeowner should probably have a hammer around somewhere, because there's always a nail or two that needs pounding in. Their goal isn't (and shouldn't be) to have the best damn hammer out there, their goal is to get the nail pounded in. I say having the best hammer shouldn't be their goal, because it's an inefficient allocation of their time and resources to search one out. (Actually, in my experience with this project so far, I feel like I'm being required to manufacture the hammer myself - right down to specifying the chemical composition and tensile strength of the alloy used to make the striking surface.  :confused:  ) MOST people simply need a basic, generic hammer to pound in a few nails, the quality/composition/manufacturing methods that produce the hammer aren't important. Sure, a better hammer might serve them well, but the time involved in making one isn't worth it, if all you want to do is pound in a couple of nails. Heck, you could use a flat rock for that.

I'm basically a code wimp, and although I'm working to change that to an extent, I'll never be a code-warrior. The only difference between me and the other 80% of the people using computers in the world today is that I've had enough of choking on the garbage Micros(uck)oft puts on my system simply because I don't know enough to get something different. I refuse to be dependant on MS's code-warriors any longer, because it's become clear to me that they DON'T have my interests at heart. I'm fairly certain that I WILL end up going to some *nix variety, because I'm currently running WIN 98 and I REFUSE to upgrade to the new stuff. It won't be long before I'll need something that won't run on 98.

But it's going to take time, and I'm already feeling a bit overwhelmed with the "new stuff" I'm learning right now. (In fact, this rant is actually avoidance behavior of a sort, because what I really should be doing is figuring out why MySQL can't find the MyODBC I installed a couple of days ago. And finding out what this DNS stuff is, and once I find that out, figuring out what I'm supposed to do with it.)

So, I'm gonna go back to work and leave you with a quote that I've been turning to for inspiration in the last few days when "it" (whatever "it" is) WON'T work and I can't see WHY it won't work and I just feel like giving up on the whole idea and playing freecell for the rest of my life:

 

quote:There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against that power governments, and tyrants, and armies (and Microsoft --ed note) can not stand.
--G'Kar, Babylon 5, The Long, Twilight Struggle  

Karen

[voidmain]

Karen, please don't make these assumptions about needing to be a "code warrior" to use Linux until you have tried it yourself.  I think you will find that it is just as graphical and easy to use as M$ as there have been several non-technical testimonies here recently by newbies.

If after giving it a serious try and you still say the same thing then that is a different story.

And as far as "The Best Hammer" analogy:

I suppose if you go down to the corner store and they have a hammer bin back in the corner full of hammers that work better than any other hammers, and you can take as many of them as you want for free, and they come with documentation about how the hammer was built if you choose to read it so you could build your own hammers and sell them free of royalty.  

And then there is a hammer bin right at the front door with a big shiny sign that says "best hammers, only $199" and you bought this hammer, took it home, called up the hammer company to make sure they will allow you to use it and so they can get all of your personal info, then tried to drive the nail and missed and smashed your thumb because the hammer was improperly balanced, you would just continue on with this pain because it was the one at the front door and the one that everyone else used?

Sure there will be some documentation with the non-advertised version of the hammers in the back room as to their chemical composition, but you don't have to read it because you already have the hammer.  Those that want to know about the chemical composition of the hammer can build their own hammer using either the same composition or a better composition, unlike the proprietary hammer at the front door.

[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

[lu666s]

Karen,

Seems to me that you have a few misconceptions that are somehow outdated.

1. Most of the current linux distros have a good GUI interface or a choice of several and for normal use (email, browsing, aim-ing, etc) there are all the tools in the GUI that you need. Actually, many more than you would not expect for stuff that is not intended for the common user, development/programming tools inclusive.

2. As an add-on, you can fire up the xterm and do most of it also via commandline. It is often a real time saver.

3. As for apache/php/mySQL, there is virtually no difference as the config goes between winblows and linux, except maybe one -- it may be running more finicky on winblows because the original apps were developed for *nix and the win ports are kinda an afterthought.

There are only a few things that you my need to learn about linux to get fast on track -- filesystem directory structure. That is something that differs substantially and it is important to have an idea where things go and where you can find them; there are minor differences between distros, but all follow essentially the standard scheme. Second thing is the question of permissions and users. Not a rocket sci at all, just a common sense matter, but in winblows that is usually not an issue (unless one takes care to set the permission structure in NT/w2k/xpee, however most people stick with the default admin access not knowing any better). In some sense, you have been exposed to these two aspects since you have to deal with a FreeBSD remote server, if I am not mistaken.

You can digest these two aspects in one afternoon, and you are set and ready.

[kjg]

quote:Originally posted by VoidMain:
Karen, please don't make these assumptions about needing to be a "code warrior" to use Linux until you have tried it yourself.  
(snip)
And as far as "The Best Hammer" analogy: (lots of snips here -everybody reading this can read your post too)

I suppose if you go down to the corner store and they have a hammer bin back in the corner full of hammers that work better than any other hammers, and you can take as many of them as you want for free, ...

And then there is a hammer bin right at the front door with a big shiny sign that says "best hammers, only $199" and you bought this hammer, ... then tried to drive the nail and missed and smashed your thumb because the hammer was improperly balanced...

Oh, great analogy! But, I don't think it's entirely accurate - you have to take into account the pervasiveness of the Windows OS (this is where MS's evil anti-competitive practices come into play). To be more representative of the OS situation, you'd have to say that instead of just being in the front "splashy" bin, the $199 hammers are available at EVERY hardware store, and at MOST of them, they're the ONLY hammers available. The "better (and free) hammers in the bin in the back corner" scenario would only be found in a few out-of-the way, non-mainstream stores - and the consumer would have to know where to find them.

Yes, the information of where to find the better hammers (and operating systems) is out there if the consumer knows where to look. And it should be noted that it's not unreasonable to expect a certain level of consumer responsibility in doing his or her homework. But it isn't entirely the consumer's fault. For one thing, as you said,  when *nix started out, it WAS "rocket science" to use it, and only code warriors were capable of doing so. You say that's changed and, although I didn't know it, I'm not surprised to learn that a variety of providers are trying to move into the non-warrior niche with more user-friendly GUIs.

But, that isn't a well publicized fact, and while *nix users are justifiably proud of having found and "bought" the better system, this pride is sometimes expressed as an attitude of superior technological knowledge and abilities - which only feeds the public perception that the *nix OS is not "accessible" to the average Photoshop-, Excel- and Explorer- using Joe/Jane Q. Public. (A perception, I might add, that Micros(uck)oft is only too happy to perpetuate whenever the opportunity arises.) Given this wide-spread, and largely unchallenged misconception, is it any wonder that those J. Q. Publics (most of whom already have too many headaches and too many things to do), decide that they don't need yet another "headache."

There needs to be a serious effort to challenge the perception that switching from Win-whatever OS to Some-other OS involves a lot of headaches and "new stuff" to do and learn. Until there is, very few of the 80% (or whatever) of computer users that "just want to pound in the damn nail" aren't going to give switching any real consideration. I see some of that going on, but it's not nearly enough to compete with the ubiquitous Windoze propaganda out there. Not yet.

I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person, but even I wouldn't have gone looking for this info until my ISP raped my computer. OK, that's a bit harsh, but that's how it felt. I got bit by the Comcast takeover of the Roadrunner network. They sent me a CD that supposedly would install the communications software I needed for the new type of modem to communicate with my computer and their network. NOWHERE it the literature did it say that they would replace my IE and OE with their "branded" (and bloated) version, plus add a lot of other unidentified (or at least, opaquely-named) stuff to my hard-drive. Even the "install wizard" only said that the software would now "install the necessary updates to my browser" so that I could access the Comcast network. "Necessary" my a$$. The fact that Opera worked with their network "out of the box" so to speak makes it clear that they just wanted to put THEIR garbage in MY computer.

(oops, off on a tangential rant there... Sorry. Back to the originally scheduled rant...)

Going back to your "improperly balanced hammer that smashed my thumb" - as I kind of implied above, I probably WOULD "continue on with the pain" because it's very hard to find out that the REASON it smashed my thumb was that it was improperly balanced. I would have assumed that it was "user error" - another perception that MicroSlop likes to perpetuate whenever given the opportunity.

 

quote:If after giving it a serious try and you still say the same thing then that is a different story.

Actually, I'm expecting that I'll be able to deal with it without too much trouble - I went from Amiga to Windows with only a couple of years under my belt, and by the time I deal with setting up a MySQL database on a FreeBSD system running an Apache server (not to mention writing PHP interfaces), it'll probably feel like a piece of cake. I'm just not going to change everything at the same time. I'll deal with this database/server "new stuff" first, using the system I'm familiar with, THEN worry about dealing with new system "new stuff." It's like that old saying about time - the great thing about time is that it keeps everything from happening all at once!

Karen

[Gonusto]

Yea, I feel your pain.  My parents ISP at home got raped in exactly the same way . . . OUCH!


-Gonusto

[kjg]

quote:Originally posted by Karen:

There needs to be a serious effort to challenge the perception that switching from Win-whatever OS to Some-other OS involves a lot of headaches and "new stuff" to do and learn. Until there is, very few of the 80% (or whatever) of computer users that "just want to pound in the damn nail" aren't going to give switching any real consideration.

If I could edit my posts, I would change this to say that "very few ... are going to give switching any real consideration." Or maybe to say that "most of the 80% ... aren't going to give switching..." That's what I get for going back and rephrasing something without checking the WHOLE sentence!

And, why CAN'T I edit my posts? The FAQ says I'm supposed to be able to. Other people can edit their posts. (You don't have a "pout" icon, so I'll just have to fake it)   out:

Karen

[kjg]

quote:Originally posted by lu666s:
Karen,

Seems to me that you have a few misconceptions that are somehow outdated.

1. Most of the current linux distros have a good GUI interface or a choice of several and for normal use (email, browsing, aim-ing, etc) there are all the tools in the GUI that you need. Actually, many more than you would not expect for stuff that is not intended for the common user, development/programming tools inclusive.

Yeah, VoidMain mentioned that too, so I went to the site in his sig. It looks like I've allowed myself to be mislead by the Windoze propaganda machine (again). Still, it's a common misperception, and as I wrote above, more needs to be done to counter it to the "unwashed masses" who might NEVER visit a site like this. Gotta take it to the streets, people!

 

quote:Originally posted by lu666s:
2. As an add-on, you can fire up the xterm and do most of it also via commandline. It is often a real time saver.

:Shudder: I'm not ready for commandline yet. It took me several tries to get a listing of what modules were compiled into the Apache server I installed. (I want to duplicate (as far as possible) what my hosting company has, to avoid using something locally only to find that it wasn't available there.)

 

quote:Originally posted by lu666s:
3. ... There are only a few things that you my need to learn about linux to get fast on track -- Second thing is the question of permissions and users. ... In some sense, you have been exposed to these two aspects since you have to deal with a FreeBSD remote server, if I am not mistaken.

I've only skimmed through the hosting company's info on permissions, as I'm not ready to set up there. But I'm currently learning about htaccess and restricting my own apache and MySQL server to "localhost" only, so I have a sense of what you're talking about. Also set up a user for MySQL that I *think* will duplicate the "user" that will be accessing the database on the web (select only permissions on two tables).

The good news is, the more I learn, the more the "big picture" is slowly coming into focus and I'm starting to feel more comfortable with the *thought* of working without a microsoft "net". At least, my anxiety level about it decreases every day, and I'm beginning to believe that I'm gonna get there without tearing out ALL my hair. Hubby says I seem to be cursing a lot less too. Which is (in general) a good thing, if only because it keeps the dogs from trying to hide under his desk. <G>

Karen

[kjg]

quote:Originally posted by Gonusto:
Yea, I feel your pain.  My parents ISP at home got raped in exactly the same way . . . OUCH!
-Gonusto

Yeah, Comcast bites, in my opinion. My email still isn't working right. Half the time I can't connect to the server, the other half of the time it tells my my password is wrong. So I enter the SAME password, and it goes through fine. If it weren't for the fact that the DSL in this area is run by SBC - which has an even worse record for customer service - I might consider switching. Oh, well, things could be worse. I could still be on AOhelL. At least the internet connection is pretty reliable, and there's always webmail...

Karen

[voidmain]

quote:Originally posted by Karen:

Oh, great analogy! But, I don't think it's entirely accurate.[snip] To be more representative of the OS situation, you'd have to say that instead of just being in the front "splashy" bin, the $199 hammers are available at EVERY hardware store, and at MOST of them, they're the ONLY hammers available. The "better (and free) hammers in the bin in the back corner" scenario would only be found in a few out-of-the way, non-mainstream stores - and the consumer would have to know where to find them.

Very nice post (you could have installed Linux in that amount of time).                        

Actually I think I was pretty close.  What you are trying to say is you can't buy a "tool belt" without a $199 Microsoft hammer preloaded.  (-:   The hammers themselves would be akin to the shrink wrapped software you find on the shelves.  You can go into Best Buy and find both WinXP and Linux on the shelves, but you can't buy a computer (Toolbelt) without the MS hammer installed.

Also, you mention that the good (and free) hammers are hard to find. I guess you haven't seen my tag line.  That's like having a hammer tree in your living room.  You don't even have to go to the store. And if you pick an MS hammer off that tree you could end up in jail. On the other hand you are encouraged to pick as many of the good hammers off the tree as you like, free of charge, no strings attached.

Nobody has the advertising dollars that MS has and spending a lot of money on advertising is what made MS the monopoly that it is (along with some very shady business practices). They have *never* had a better product.  Look at the Apple vs MS history.  Or even the Amiga that you used to use (I worked with people who were more fanatical about Amiga than I have ever been with Linux).  

Most (if not all) of the techology MS does have has been purchased, not developed in house.  They go to great extents to stay away from standards bodies and to be as proprietary as possible.  Linux happens to be the first thing that's come along that they can't buy out, take over, manipulate, bully, etc. And it's got them squirming. It's actually quite pleasing to watch.

And the market share is currently more like 94%-98% in the desktop market, not 80%, but I expect that to change drastically over the next few years.  Big players are embracing it fully and more rapidly every day.

And I can't help but wonder what it was that drew you and others like you to a site called "fuckmicrosoft.com", especially not knowing that there are other alternatives?  I have to assume it must have been some sort of frustration.....

Do me a favor and take just a few seconds to look over some screen shots of a couple of the more popular GUI systems available for Linux (yes you have a choice):

http://www.kde.org/screenshots/index.html
http://developer.gnome.org/dotplan/

Does it look completely alien to you or look like it would be hard to learn to use? And there are boatloads (hammer bins full) of themes out there that can drastically change the look of either of these GUIs, or take on the look of other commercial GUIs. You can make KDE look/feel like Win*, and the first time you run it asks you how you want it to look and act, one of the options is Windows 98. On one of my machines I use KDE with the Aqua theme/style that makes it look very much like Apple's OSX.  On the laptop that I am currently typing this message I am using a completely different GUI called WindowMaker because it uses a lot less memory and makes my Laptop sing.

[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

[voidmain]

quote:Originally posted by Karen:

If I could edit my posts, I would change this to say....

You *can* edit your posts.  Click the ICON just to the left of the "" ICON above your message... The one of the pencil and paper.

[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

[kjg]

quote:Originally posted by VoidMain:


Very nice post (you could have installed Linux in that amount of time).                

 

You're incorrigible! But, just out of curiosity, how much space would I need for a Linux partition on my 'puter? I'm still not going to do it till I get my site development work done, my focus has got to be getting to the "place" where everything is working as intended, and I know HOW do do everything I need to do to maintain it. Still, I'm moving along at a fairly good clip, so it might be "Linux time" sooner than I originally thought        

 

quote:Originally posted by VoidMain:
Actually I think I was pretty close.  What you are trying to say is you can't buy a "tool belt" without a $199 Microsoft hammer preloaded.  (-:

 

Yeah, that's better. Glad you could read my mind well enough to figure out what I meant. You're exactly right - ALL the tool belts come with the Micros(uck)oft hammer preloaded.

 

quote:Originally posted by VoidMain:
Also, you mention that the good (and free) hammers are hard to find. I guess you haven't seen my tag line.

Actually, I visited there yesterday and looked around. But, that's in this forum - and as you noted, I'm here because I'm already frustrated with M(acrobull)S(hit)'s products. How many people that aren't actively looking to change are going to come here? Just a few rabid MS supporters coming to troll the board, as far as I can see. I've heard one or two people mention Linux in general forums, but not many. And *I* wouldn't have found this place if somebody hadn't mentioned it in the DevShed MySQL forum. (Or maybe it was the PHP forum... one of them, anyway)

 

quote:Originally posted by VoidMain:
Nobody has the advertising dollars that MS has and spending a lot of money on advertising is what made MS the monopoly that it is (along with some very shady business practices). They have *never* had a better product.

True, but I have to add, Linux and other altOS  platforms could still be "out there" more than they are. Particularly in the arena where their best prospects already ARE - the web. You don't need a huge advertising budget. Web-based advertising is ultra-cheap these days. Some say that's because it doesn't work. I say it's because most of the advertisers have been too enamored of flash at the expense of content. They started putting up these flashing/animated/screaming banners that were so annoying that people started looking for software to block them. So then they started using pop-ups and pop-unders, which only served to annoy people even more, leading to things like Opera's ability to refuse all pop-ups.

Advertising fact: If people are looking to buy a broom, all you really have to say in your ad is "we have brooms" - believe me, if they're looking - even if they're just wondering if maybe they oughta look into buying a new broom - they'll see your ad. If they're not looking, no amount of flash or pop-up/under sneakiness is going to make them pay attention your ad. I even have a personal anecdote to prove it: When our refrigerator died, "all of a sudden" all the newspapers were FILLED with appliance ads! What great timing on the advertisers' part, right? Wrong. Those ads were ALWAYS there, I just never saw them because I wasn't LOOKING for a refrigerator. My brain just filtered them out.

(Sorry for yet another mini-rant. This is a pet issue with me - before I went into web-work, I spent nearly 20 years in marketing and advertising, and the amount of money people blow on ad campaigns that CAN'T and WON'T do the job they want it to do constantly amazes me.)

I've already thought of a couple of static banner ads that would grab the attention of anybody in the state of mind I was a few days ago (i.e., I've had enough of this crap, what else is out there) - and part of me wants to stop what I'm doing and produce them (I get distracted easily - it's a tendency I have to fight a lot!) for the benefit of the "community."

(OK, here's one of them - a screen shot of the "blue screen of death" with only the words "Resistance is NOT futile!" Would you click? More importantly, do you think a viewer who had recently encountered the BSOD would click? Of course, the page the click leads to is just as important. That's where you have to explain the easy GUIs and ease of installation in terms that won't scare off the "just looking, thanks" folks.)

 

quote:Originally posted by VoidMain:
Look at the Apple vs MS history.  Or even the Amiga that you used to use (I worked with people who were more fanatical about Amiga than I have ever been with Linux).

Yeah, having to give up my Amiga because I couldn't find the programs or support I needed still stings sometimes. (And we're talking 10 years!)

 

quote:Originally posted by VoidMain:
And the market share is currently more like 94%-98% in the desktop market, not 80%...

My 80% was just a guess of share of computer users that are focused solely on "pounding in the nail" (the immediate task at hand) and would never think of looking around for different hammers as long as they've got one that works. After all (just for one example) I'm in that 94%-98% market share that MS *currently* enjoys, but they're not going to have me much longer.

 

quote:Originally posted by VoidMain:
... but I expect that to change drastically over the next few years.

I do too. I think the convergence of a couple of factors makes this a great "window of opportunity" for alternative OSs - the fact that "big boys" are rebelling at the extortionist licensing and upgrade policies of MS, and the ever-increasing number of people deciding to put up their own websites. Front Page and other Windoze-based editors are not universally supported on web-hosting companies. The one I went with (small pitch here - www.pair.com) doesn't support Front Page on the basic accounts, (and even where they do, you have to specifically *ask* for FP extension support to be added) and doesn't support ColdFusion or ASP at all. Several of the other hosts I looked at charge extra for FP and ASP support. That kind of thing is going to drive a lot of people to start looking around at what else is out there, I think. That, and the fact that the hosts that DO support Windoze, or (godess-forbid-it!) actually RUN on an MS platform seem to be down a lot. (Gee, can't imagine why...)

Originally posted by VoidMain:
[QB]Do me a favor and take just a few seconds to look over some screen shots of a couple of the more popular GUI systems available for Linux (yes you have a choice):

http://www.kde.org/screenshots/index.html
http://developer.gnome.org/dotplan/

Thanks a lot. Do you know how hard it is to clean drool off a keyboard? <G> Still, as you noted, this entails researching and finding the window manager program I want to use, finding programs to do the things I want to do... all this is provided (at great cost, but with NO extra work required) in most Windoze pre-installs. The "extra work" - no matter that it's not hard work - just doesn't appeal to the nail-focused computer user who already has a functional (if not ideal) hammer in their toolbelt.

Karen

[kjg]

quote:Originally posted by VoidMain:


You *can* edit your posts.  Click the ICON just to the left of the "" ICON above your message... The one of the pencil and paper.

[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

Oh, geez. I thought that was the "post" icon! Thanks for the tip. I came ->|<- this close to committing myself to an Assisted Computing Facility...

http://www.satirewire.com/features/siliconpines/acf.shtml