apache win32 port

[voidmain]

quote:Originally posted by Karen:

But, just out of curiosity, how much space would I need for a Linux partition on my 'puter?

I would suggest about 4GB minimum if you can spare it (but you can certainly install in a lot less than that).  And I certainly don't want to rush you into this. If you don't have the time to spend with it, it may not get a serious evaluation.

     

quote:Originally posted by Karen:

True, but I have to add, Linux and other altOS platforms could still be "out there" more than they are. Particularly in the arena where their best prospects already ARE - the web. You don't need a huge advertising budget.

This may shock you but what you refer to as the "altOS" has a bigger market share of the web than MS OSs have, as much as MS is trying to reverse this.  Go look at the www.netcraft.com charts.  You will see that Apache still has twice the web server market and virtually 0% of that Apache line is Apache/Win32. And I prefer to think of Win* has the "altOS". (-;

In fact in the good old days there was *no* Microsoft on the web, only UNIX.  I was on the web before there was an Internet Explorer or a Netscape.  I didn't get on in the beginning but I got on when the first graphical browser I new about was called "gopher" (and it was a text based graphical browser, but capable of hyperlinks/urls) and there was no HTTP protocol.  Then the HTTP protocol was developed and the first Xwindows based graphical web browser I used was Mosaic (which I believe Microsoft took the source code for and and created Internet Explorer 1.0).  Yeah, MS raped the university open source project to help really fan the monopoly flames.  Thanks for nothin'!

There have been a good chunk of Linux web servers out there long before MS came out with the garbage known as IIS.  MS does not yet have the monopoly on the web server end of things, and hopefully that will never change.

     

quote:Originally posted by Karen:

They started putting up these flashing/animated/screaming banners that were so annoying that people started looking for software to block them.

I have been filtering ads for years with no special software installed on my desktops.  I force all my desktops to go through my Proxy server (running on Linux) and it filters out all the ads.  Another neat trick I do is create master zones in my DNS server for ".microsoft.com", ".msn.com", ".doubleclick.net", ".hitbox.com" etc, but with nothing in them.  So every one of my home PCs believe that "www.microsoft.com" doesn't exist.  Yep, as far as my computers are concerned, Microsoft doesn't exist.
Just the way it should be.

And I don't have to put up with the popup windows either.  In KDE's Konqueror web browser there is an option to turn off JavaScript popups, or you can also set it to "ask" if you want the window to pop up.  In fact I disable JavaScript entirely in my browser by default, and then specifically turn it on for the sites I trust.

     

quote:Originally posted by Karen:

(OK, here's one of them - a screen shot of the "blue screen of death" with only the words "Resistance is NOT futile!" Would you click? More importantly, do you think a viewer who had recently encountered the BSOD would click? Of course, the page the click leads to is just as important. That's where you have to explain the easy GUIs and ease of installation in terms that won't scare off the "just looking, thanks" folks.)

Maybe the open source group should start recruiting an open source advertising team.  They have plenty of programmers that volunteer their time and expertise, they also have lawyers.  But I don't believe they have an advertising team. Actually, RedHat and other publically traded companies have advertising departments/budgets. But it would be cool if there were a "non-affiliated" advertising group. There are also many web sites out there dedicated to Linux.

     

quote:Originally posted by Karen:

Still, as you noted, this entails researching and finding the window manager program I want to use, finding programs to do the things I want to do... all this is provided (at great cost, but with NO extra work required) in most Windoze pre-installs. The "extra work" - no matter that it's not hard work - just doesn't appeal to the nail-focused computer user who already has a functional (if not ideal) hammer in their toolbelt.

I don't remember noting that at all.  All Linux distros that I have ever seen come with both of the GUI environments I gave you links to and you have the choice of using either at login time.  And the distros come with all of the development tools you could probably ever want/need including the SQL databases (MySQL, PostgreSQL).  And include Apache/php, perl, etc.  And include a great program development environment (GCC, and Kdevelop which is much like Visual C++).  Does Microsoft include a copy of SQL Server?  Does it include a copy of Visual Studio? Does it include an Office suite? Nope, Linux includes 200 times more applications than MS does.  And they can all be installed and up and running on your first boot after the Linux installation. But this is something you will have to see for yourself if/when you give it a try.  

Again I don't want to push you to try it until you are mentally ready and have some time to play.  The more you play, the more you will like, even if you are slightly frustrated and naive in the beginning.  If you stick with it I can bet that you will come to a point when you say "and why was it again I ever used Microsoft? This is so much easier...".  

Again, don't expect to have that attitude right out of the gate. Because something isn't exactly the same as MS when they boot Linux they may get frustrated but the lights usually come on rather quickly. And then if you get really froggy, you can go beyond the GUI. The Linux GUIs are actually more powerful than MS, but when/if you get beyond the GUI you will see *real* power.  You can't experience that in Windows because they build their GUI on top of a cardboard box.

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

[kjg]

ARRGGHH! My ISP went down in the middle of replying to you... for the REST OF THE DAY! Anyway...

 

quote:Originally posted by VoidMain:
This may shock you but what you refer to as the "altOS" has a bigger market share of the web than MS OSs have, as much as MS is trying to reverse this. Go look at the www.netcraft.com charts.

Sorry, I said that badly - I meant that the altOSs should be "out there" in terms of telling their "story" to the people browsing websites. I knew that the majority of servers aren't MS products. (If I hadn't known it before, I certainly found it out when I was looking for a web host!)

But actually, the Netcraft charts show a bit of cause for concern in terms of the market share trend. The third chart on the chars page (http://www.netcraft.com/Survey/Reports/200201/graphs.html) "Market Share for Top Servers Across All Domains" seems to indicate that Microsoft is taking market share away from other systems since (guessing by the hashmarks) about the beginning of 2001. Their market share has been increasing since then, while all other systems have been decreasing (albeit slightly). This might not be as bad as it looks - there's not enough detail in the "methodology" section to be sure, but from what is there, every separate domain name is counted as a separate server - which means shared hosting servers like the ones I'm on would count as 10 or 15 servers.

IF (big if) the MS server solutions are attracting many small "personal" websites - people who might not have even considered trying it on a server that didn't support the Microsoft products they were used to - that graph could be providing a distorted picture of the actual *usage* of servers.

 

quote:Originally posted by VoidMain:
Maybe the open source group should start recruiting an open source advertising team. They have plenty of programmers that volunteer their time and expertise, they also have lawyers. But I don't believe they have an advertising team. Actually, RedHat and other publically traded companies have advertising departments/budgets. But it would be cool if there were a "non-affiliated" advertising group. There are also many web sites out there dedicated to Linux.

This is an intriquing idea! Can't do anything about it right now, but if nobody steps up to the plate before I get some free time, I just might consider working on such a project.

 

quote:Originally posted by VoidMain:

Originally posted by Karen:
Still, as you noted, this entails researching and finding the window manager program I want to use, finding programs to do the things I want to do

 

quote:

I don't remember noting that at all.  All Linux distros that I have ever seen come with both of the GUI environments I gave you links to and you have the choice of using either at login time.

Sorry, my misunderstanding this time. When you were talking about which GUI you prefer, I thought you meant that when you got Linux, you had to also choose which GUI to use.

 

quote:Originally posted by VoidMain:

And the distros come with all of the development tools you could probably ever want/need including the SQL databases (MySQL, PostgreSQL).  And include Apache/php, perl, etc.  And include a great program development environment (GCC, and Kdevelop which is much like Visual C++).  Does Microsoft include a copy of SQL Server?  Does it include a copy of Visual Studio? Does it include an Office suite? Nope, Linux includes 200 times more applications than MS does.  And they can all be installed and up and running on your first boot after the Linux installation.

That's it! That's the "story" that needs to be put "out there" where the general browsing public can encounter it without searching (or going to "fuckmicrosoft" forums <G>     This is the point that needs to be ... er, hammered home whenever possible, to overcome the general misconception that non-MS operating systems (with the exception of Mac's of course) are something only a programmer could love. And this statement:

 

quote:Linux includes 200 times more applications than MS does.  And they can all be installed and up and running on your first boot after the Linux installation.

should be the CORE message of ANY marketing effort directed at J.Q. Public.

It'S a GREAT message. But, despite forums like this one and those devoted to Linux (or other altOSs, for that matter) it is NOT out there in any significant way.

Karen

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Karen ]

[voidmain]

quote:Karen said

This might not be as bad as it looks - there's not enough detail in the "methodology" section to be sure, but from what is there, every separate domain name is counted as a separate server - which means shared hosting servers like the ones I'm on would count as 10 or 15 servers.

Like I said, MS is trying to gain in this market like they are in every other market and have been making some success (not because they are better but because of advertising).  And IIS can run multiple virtual servers just like Apache can (multiple domains) so it's hard to break it out into how many physical OS installations there are.


   

quote:
That's it! That's the "story" that needs to be put "out there" where the general browsing public can encounter it without searching (or going to "fuckmicrosoft" forums <G> This is the point that needs to be ... er, hammered home whenever possible, to overcome the general misconception that non-MS operating systems (with the exception of Mac's of course) are something only a programmer could love. And this statement:

Well, the word *is* out there.  It's just not "hammered" down your throat like Microsoft software is. I wonder what percentage of the retail price of a copy of XP comes straight out of "your" pocket and straight into those commercials?  And it's one of the reasons the customer can afford it. "Free" doesn't generate a lot of revenue for advertising.

And to me there is one *big* issue that needs some work before it will really appeal to the *home* desktop user (in addition to application vendors porting their desktop software to Linux).  And that is the installation process itself.  Linux has gotten a lot better and as a high level systems person that works fairly equally with Microsoft and *NIX operating systems I believe that Linux has the best package management and dependency system (Add/Remove programs).  However I can see where it could be a nightmare for a new home user to comprehend.

Now, on the other hand, take someone like my father. The OS was installed when he got his computer (Win95).  *I* am the one who has to install applications for him and upgrade his OS to Win98, etc.  He couldn't create a shortcut if it jumped up and bit him in the nose.  He loves his Solitaire and Web browser though.  After the 400th time of talking him through updating his virus software and cleaning his system over the phone (he lives 300 miles from me) I started thinking.  Why the hell don't I just install Linux for him next time.  I won't have to worry about Viruses, Linux comes with many more and better Solitaire games.  He won't be able to tell the difference when he's sending email and browsing the web.  And he won't ever have to pay for another upgrade.  I've still been too chicken to do it.

I've definately got a leg up in Linux experience and it is very easy for me, however because of that I can't really tell how easy Linux has gotten and have fears that it may not be as easy as I think.  But I am encouraged by the youngsters on this site who have installed it, said it was easy, and said they were now very happy.  You will hopefully be my next experiment.    

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

[voidmain]

I just read over the beginning of this thread again and realized we sorta got off subjet about 2.49% into the thread.  Getting back to Apache/Win32 port and pondering some of what Karen has said on the off-track part of this thread I am starting to realize what the Apache developers have in mind (Karen may have revealed it in her first reply but I didn't fully understand until after the debate).  

I now am starting to think that the Apache port to win32 is a good thing, and all of the other free software ports to win32 might be a good thing.  Why?  Eventually, everyone will be using free applications and tools rather than MS applications and tools and the only thing left will be that crappy OS underneath.  When they find out there is a better (and free) hammer to go along with all those nice free nails they are using they would have no reason not to take that last step.

On the other hand, MS has a history of taking those applications, writing their own much crappier version and including it with their OS, and then claim that they invented it.  Then where would we be?  If nothing else it would prove that Open Source software is a good thing.  It causes MS to improve their product (if they want to stay in the game).  Hopefully my former vision will be the one that comes true...

[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

[kjg]

quote:Originally posted by VoidMain:
I now am starting to think that the Apache port to win32 is a good thing, and all of the other free software ports to win32 might be a good thing.  Why?  Eventually, everyone will be using free applications and tools rather than MS applications and tools and the only thing left will be that crappy OS underneath.  When they find out there is a better (and free) hammer to go along with all those nice free nails they are using they would have no reason not to take that last step.

On the other hand, MS has a history of taking those applications, writing their own much crappier version and including it with their OS, and then claim that they invented it.  Then where would we be?  If nothing else it would prove that Open Source software is a good thing.  It causes MS to improve their product (if they want to stay in the game).  Hopefully my former vision will be the one that comes true...

[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

Just a quickie reply... read the stuff in the link at the end of the "Is it just me" thread about MS's "product activation" scheme. That might be the thing that breaks 'em - especially, as you say, if things like Apache/Win32 start showing people there IS an alternative. One thing that argues for your "vision" is that, once you start trying to install these things, you start hanging out in the sorts of forums where this information is available. I found this site through DevShed, which I've been reading for answers/advice/tutorials on setting up my "replica" of pair's DB managment setup.

Or as some famous songwriter said... "How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm after they've seen gay Paree?"

   

Karen

[kjg]

quote:Originally posted by VoidMain:


Well, the word *is* out there.  It's just not "hammered" down your throat like Microsoft software is.

You say that like advertising is a bad thing! <G> Seriously, that's part of the reason I got out of the field. There's too much bad advertising out there. Advertising, in and of itself, can be either a good thing - letting people know that a product/service is available, and what the *true* benefits might be - or a bad thing - supporting bad products through presenting a false image of what it is, and/or what its benefits are. And increasingly, the bad is "loud" enough to drown out most of the good kind. And the sad thing is, the people who start out trying to do the good kind feel compelled to compete with the bad kind, and they end up going over to the dark side too.

 

quote:Originally posted by VoidMain:

And to me there is one *big* issue that needs some work before it will really appeal to the *home* desktop user (in addition to application vendors porting their desktop software to Linux).  And that is the installation process itself.  <snip>  However I can see where it could be a nightmare for a new home user to comprehend.

Yeah, that would certainly have to be addressed. "Telling" people that it's going to be better and easier, then giving them a nightmare will do more harm than not promising them anything. Bad word-of-mouth flies faster and farther than good-word-of mouth, because when people are pissed (and/or feel they've been mislead) they get LOUD about it.

 

quote:Originally posted by VoidMain:
Now, on the other hand, take someone like my father. The OS was installed when he got his computer (Win95).  *I* am the one who has to install applications for him and upgrade his OS to Win98, etc.  He couldn't create a shortcut if it jumped up and bit him in the nose.  He loves his Solitaire and Web browser though.

Same with me and my mother - but I don't have nearly the background you do, so sometimes I end up "helping" by "sharing her pain" while we scratch our heads over it. As a matter of fact, I have to go up and install a new modem for her in the next week or so. I finally managed to find a external 56K that will "talk" to her old Win95/486 on her antiquated serial port! I am only hoping I don't have to change the initialization string, because I tossed my notes on the proper ones a couple of years ago.

 

quote:Originally posted by VoidMain:

I've definately got a leg up in Linux experience and it is very easy for me, however because of that I can't really tell how easy Linux has gotten and have fears that it may not be as easy as I think.  But I am encouraged by the youngsters on this site who have installed it, said it was easy, and said they were now very happy.  You will hopefully be my next experiment.      

Well, as your next "project" I'll let you know how it feels from a barely-'puter-literate point of view when I get to the point where I can devote some time to installing it.

But first, I've got to get to the point of being ready to install it, so, to hasten that day... maybe you could answer a question for me??

The Apache server is installed, I'm running it as a console, got it "confined" to my local machine.  I haven't put in the PHP module yet because I *think* I have a problem (or maybe it's the way it's supposed to be, and I just don't know it). When I start it up, I get the DOS window that says it's running, as expected... but I can't type anything into it. I finally got a list of the compiled-in modules by opening a second DOS window, navigating to the directory and typing the command there. The server window WILL accept the shutdown command (control+c), but that's it. Is that normal?

That's not the only problem - some of the other commands returned "bad command or filename, you idiot" (OK, I'm lying about the last part) but I'm probably just typing them in wrong, or have to navigate to a subfolder or something. The fact that the list module worked tells me that it's probably MY error, not something wrong with the server.

But at least (after a couple of uninstall/re-installs on both) MySQL finally "found" MyODBC, and they seem to be really happy together. They make a really cute couple, too.

Karen

[kjg]

Hey, VoidMain... did I offend you somehow? If so, I'm sorry. And does this mean that I'm not going to be your next experiment?    

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I solved my Apache problem. As usual (for me), it was user error.

Karen

[voidmain]

I'm sorry Karen, I missed your last post.  And I don't get offended, I get even. (:

Now that I have read your last post I probably would not have been able to help you because after all, you are running Apache on Win32.  If you had been running it on *NIX I would have been more than happy to help you.

And I certainly am looking forward to the experiment although I am nervous about it.     Glad to hear you got it going.  Being familiar with the Apache config files will certainly be a plus when going to Linux (I prefer to edit them in a text editor to the graphical way because it is standard.  The instructions that you can give at that level will work across all installations.

[kjg]

quote:Originally posted by VoidMain:
[qb]I'm sorry Karen, I missed your last post.  And I don't get offended, I get even. (: [/b]

Ah, good! That's my preferred style of dealing with offensive people too. (Considering the fact that killing them leads to an inordinate amount of unpleasantness involving the police, that is.)

   

quote:Originally posted by VoidMain:
Now that I have read your last post I probably would not have been able to help you because after all, you are running Apache on Win32.

It was just a stupid GUIdiot mistake. The problem was that none of the resource materials I read ever imagined that anybody could be that dumb.

   

quote:Originally posted by VoidMain:
If you had been running it on *NIX I would have been more than happy to help you.

The word "incorrigible" once again springs to mind.      

   

quote:Originally posted by VoidMain:
And I certainly am looking forward to the experiment although I am nervous about it.      

 

Well, it will probably be a while, if I need 4 gigs - that's my whole hard drive, and I've only got about 1.7 gigs left. I've already uninstalled the bloatware Comcast put on my system, and I'm hoping to squeeze a little more out by clearing out the hidden files, but it still won't be enough. I'll probably have to wait until I'm ready to replace my computer - I was hoping to be able to convert before then, because I am NOT buying a machine with XP on it. Period.

I'm overdue, really - my CD drive is dying, and I can't get both the zip drive and the floppy to work at the same time. It's one or the other. I was hoping to just install a CD-RW and limp along for another year... don't have much use for floppies anyway, and with a RW, I wouldn't really NEED a zip drive.

BUT... there's still hope: I found a program called "WinLinux" - posted about it in the altOS section - that might get me started before I have to invest in a whole new system. If the whole thing isn't a scam or something that is.

 

quote:Originally posted by VoidMain:
Being familiar with the Apache config files will certainly be a plus when going to Linux (I prefer to edit them in a text editor to the graphical way because it is standard.  The instructions that you can give at that level will work across all installations.

That's good to know, because I did the whole thing in Notepad and I think I actually understood most of it. It's got great "comment-tation" and I also followed along with my "Apache for Beginners" book. It's more geared toward *nix users, but there are "tips" for Windows installation too. I'm planning to try to set up a test database tomorrow, and play with php a bit. I've taken a couple of days off - had to deal with critter problems yesterday, and had a root canal today. Which was LOTS of fun.

Really.

Wanna buy a bridge?

       

Karen

[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: Karen ]

[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: Karen ]