"The Apple Eradication Society forums?"

[Pantso]

I though that it would be more appropriate to start this topic in the Mac forum, since it mostly concerns us Mac owners.

Now, I've been seeing a lot of hatred lately towards Apple as well as OS X. Sometimes I see your points, which are mostly based on your weakness to find something wrong with OS X. So, you decided to bring the "ethics" issue to the surface and start this flame war on why Apple is using the open source community to make Jobs richer.

My point is that I'm really tired of some inane, cocky and elitist comments. Sorry, but I guess that it's time for me to leave, since these forums have really become a cesspool. So long fellow Mac owners. It was good, while it lasted.

EDIT: I changed my mind. I won't leave my fellow Macies and open-minded Linux users alone.    

EDIT2: Sorry if i offended anyone and i certainly hope we stop this meaningless debate.  

[ April 15, 2003: Message edited by: Panos ]

[ April 15, 2003: Message edited by: Panos ]

[ April 15, 2003: Message edited by: Panos ]

[Pissed_Macman]

Don't go! There are some people who have been overly critical of Apple (I hope you don't count my Safari thread as that) but you can't just give up and leave. As one of the last sane people here, you should help stop the spread of misinformation.

[Pantso]

I don't want to go Macman. It is just that I feel that us Mac owners are not exactly welcome here anymore. When someone starts a thread in the Mac forum, like your Safari one, all I see is others hijacking the thread and posting rubbish such as how harmful Apple is to the open source community and such bullshit. Way off topic! Who asked for their opinion anyway? Start a fucking new topic!   :mad:  

That's all I'm saying. I won't go if you fellow Macies stay. I wouldn't leave you alone with the beasts anyway.     I'll stay as long as we back each other up. Remember, we didn't start this. Unfortunately, others did.  

[Calum]

i don't have anything against mac users and i don't have any 'hate' towards apple. all anti mac or anti apple comments i make are based in fact and are responses to apple casting the first stone.

if you wish to make snooty comments about how everybody's just jealous of your mac and how everybody else started the fight in the first place then far be it from me to stop you wasting your time.

i am not the one posting inflammatory words in new topics on these forums.

[flap]

Don't be ridiculous. How is (justifiable) suspicion toward Apple an assault on Mac users? And this 'elitist' thing is absurd too. Does berating Microsoft over the quality of their software or their contempt for freedom constitute 'elitism'?

Anyway, let's stop criticising the behaviour of MS + Apple in case we hurt their advocates' poor little feelings.

[Faust]

Sorry if you saw my earlier comments as an insult to macs Panos.
But if i see an ad that I take as insulting to my favorite OS I will get upset just as you will.
Referring to peoples comments as "inane cocky and elitist" wont calm people down either.  Nor will telling them that their points are based on "weakness."
BTW I dont "hate" Apple - nor I think do many if any others on these forums - but again seeing an ad that insults Linux will upset me.

edit : please stay.
the following however are what i take to be elitist comments as well:
just because apple gave nix a great GUI you get jealous...
which are mostly based on your weakness...
the last "sane" people here...
i've finally found joy in a unix system and i found it when i purchased a macintosh...
and of course the various "stupid intel architecture" threads.  The last one is especially bad and you mac users start flaming others for using intel architecture all the freaking time...

[ April 15, 2003: Message edited by: Faust ]

[Calum]

apple's attitude insults me and until they stop it i won't see any reason not to insult them if i want.

mac users who throw themselves in the line of fire have nobody to blame but themselves if they feel offended since my possible bone of contention is not with mac users, but possibly with apple (i say possibly because their motives are really unclear to me compared with those of microsoft, for all i know apple might just be very confused).

[flap]

quote:Originally posted by Panos:
My point is that I'm really tired of your inane, cocky and elitist comments.

Elitism is looking down on others because they're not part of, and have no way of joining, a particular group which is perceived to be better than others. It's not elitism if Apple can easily join the free software fraternity simply by ceasing to produce proprietary software. A better example of elitism could be, oh I don't know, a company producing an operating system and allowing only its employees to see the holy source code, and allowing only those who have the money to pay them for a licence to use it.

Why do you think Microsoft should be criticised but Apple should be able to get away with what they're doing without anyone raising objections? Do you think we object to Microsoft purely because of the quality of their software?

[Faust]

What seems to be the case is in the following statements (please inform us which one you take contention with.):
1: Apple uses Free Software to design a better browser and improve their OS by using khtml and a BSD kernel.
2: Apple then tries to compete directly against Free Software, the majority of which is *NIX based as exemplified in the statement "sends other unix boxes to /dev/null" and others.
3: By doing 2 Apple has hurt the Operating Systems it was helped by.
4: Apple should be trying to attack Microsoft instead of casting aspersions on Free OS's
5: Apple has fulfilled a bare minimum of their requirements under the Freedom license.
6: In doing 5 Apple has "weasled out of" giving effective support in their alliance with Free Software - for example by not Freeing Safari itself and by just Freeing the HTML "rendering" component

Which of the 6 is in the opinion of the Mac users incorrect?  Please give reasons why, and notice that I have been polite so please no flaming me.

[Calum]

hear hear! i agree 100% with that.

[Faust]

As do I... well obviously I posted it.  As before please post your rebuttals against those 6 points Macman / Panos - if you dont then I'll have to assume that they're good points and I'm pretty sure at least 1 of them must piss you off.
Surely everyone can see that the enemy is MS and that infighting is pointless?  Then why does Apple use Free Software to gain an advantage then fulfill the bare minimum "requirements" in return?
If i walk past a car crash all I'm "required" to do is report it - but surely its unethical to not help the victims by just fulfilling my "bare requirements?"
Other than the "bare requirements" what _has_ apple done for the Free Software community?

EDIT : again mac users, please dont think that I "hate" you or your OS, as I dont.  Also please dont take my terseness as rudeness - my posts are blunt and to the point because I have an essay due thursday not because i want to be "rude" in any way.

[ April 15, 2003: Message edited by: Faust ]

[Pantso]

quote:Originally posted by Faust:
What seems to be the case is in the following statements (please inform us which one you take contention with.):
1: Apple uses Free Software to design a better browser and improve their OS by using khtml and a BSD kernel.
2: Apple then tries to compete directly against Free Software, the majority of which is *NIX based as exemplified in the statement "sends other unix boxes to /dev/null" and others.
3: By doing 2 Apple has hurt the Operating Systems it was helped by.
4: Apple should be trying to attack Microsoft instead of casting aspersions on Free OS's
5: Apple has fulfilled a bare minimum of their requirements under the Freedom license.
6: In doing 5 Apple has "weasled out of" giving effective support in their alliance with Free Software - for example by not Freeing Safari itself and by just Freeing the HTML "rendering" component

Which of the 6 is in the opinion of the Mac users incorrect?  Please give reasons why, and notice that I have been polite so please no flaming me.

Before answering, let me just say that I do not in any way support proprietary software. I wish everything was GPL'ed but above all I'm trying to be realistic. Recently, I made a fairly large donation to the FSF and today received a thank you letter. Inside the author of the letter (Bradley M. Kuhn) speaking on behalf of the FSF, states among others the following and I quote:

 

quote: "We also continue our work in the trenches as we defend the rights of users and developers of GPL'ed software. While our enforcement efforts once were done informally only a few times a year, the popularity of Free Software has unfortunately led to more GPL violations. In 2002, through the formal GPL Compliance Lab we launched in late 2001, we have pursued approximately fifty violations of the GPL on FSF copyrighted code. In addition, we are arduously drafting version 3 of the GPL (GPLv3). We hope to address the threats to software freedom that we see on the horizon today, just as GPLv2 saw ahead to the threads of this past decade. This new work, however, requires careful and copious legal and technological expertise.

I urge anyone in this forums, to present me a case were Apple has violated the GPL or LGPL licenses. If and when that happens, I'll be the first one to turn against Apple.

Now, to Faust's points:

1. The first part is true and Apple have come up with Safari as you know. The improved and enhanced code as you also know will be part of future KDE and subsequently Konqueror releases. Does that benefit you and me? Well, I think it does. The second part is also true since Darwin is BSD-based and I also agree to the fact that it too, should be GPL'ed and not released under the restrictive license that it is released now.

2. I disagree there. Apple is a corporation, meaning that they're trying to sell. I don't see anything wrong there. The same thing could be done amongst Linux vendors who have in the past and are still competed and competing against each other.

3. I also disagree. Thanks to the hard work invested by Apple's software engineers into Darwin, as well as the close cooperation between the latter and BSD developers has brought positive results as well as improvements on both and will continue to do so.

4. Oh, it is and Safari is already a big step towards that direction. The rumoured arrival of iWorks and the arrival of Keynote, will have a great impact on M$'s profits.

5. Again I urge you to present me a case of violation of the GPL, LGPL and other FSF licenses.

6. The only layer in Safari that isn't free is the coordination layer between Safari and OS X. Can you imagine what would happen if Apple released that or Aqua's code or Quartz's? Do you remember what happened in the case of Xerox's GUI?

That's all I had to say. I don't have anything against people who make valid remarks and points. I do hate however, those who resort to flaming and insults. I will stay, as long as these forums do not turn into Apple-bashing forums instead of M$-bashing ones.  

[Pantso]

The Webmaster of this page must be a prophet or something. Take a look at what's burried inside the main page's HTML code:

Code: [Select]

   :confused:      :confused:      :eek:      :eek:  

No offense of course to more logical and open-minded people like Calum for example and many others who know who they are. Needless to say that I agree.  

[ April 15, 2003: Message edited by: Panos ]

[psyjax]

1: Apple uses Free Software to design a better browser and improve their OS by using khtml and a BSD kernel.

True. What's wrong with this? They didn't exactly change BSD very muvh, but rather built a proprietary GUI layer on top of it.

2: Apple then tries to compete directly against Free Software, the majority of which is *NIX based as exemplified in the statement "sends other unix boxes to /dev/null" and others.

Oh, and RedHat dosn't compeat directly with the other linux distros? As a matter of fact I think I remember some andti BSD stuff on their page a while back.

There is nothing wrong with trying to build a better mouse trap. IBM makes UNIX boxes, they aren't necesserly being hurt bu the competition, are they?

There is nothing wrong with competition. That's why Apple is good, and M$ sux.

3: By doing 2 Apple has hurt the Operating Systems it was helped by.

On the contrary, it has popularized them and brought them to the forefront. Before OS X,  Linux, and *NIX were a mystery to common users. Apple made it Chic. and most of all called it the "next step"

Dozens of Sourceforge projects sprung up makeing OpenSource software for OSX, on OSX. But with the goal of portability to other *NIX's. The *NIX community gained a whole bunch of chilldren from the Mac users.

4: Apple should be trying to attack Microsoft instead of casting aspersions on Free OS's

Keynotes, and Safari are both steps away from their M$ dependancy. And it's not like i have seen M$ do anything worthwhile on the Mac lately ('ccept the VPC fiasco).

And apple has not case any aspersions. They have praised openSopurce software for it's merits. As a matter of fact a large part of their OS is Free! And there is a whole comunity of people who develop and benifit from it!

Just go to the OpenDarwin websites... there are people who actually like it, and run the stuff exclusively.

5: Apple has fulfilled a bare minimum of their requirements under the Freedom license.

There is no such thing as "bare mininimum" when it comes to legality. They fullfiled the requirement.

If you feel this way, maybe you should take your complaint to the GPL people and demand that they redraft their licence.

6: In doing 5 Apple has "weasled out of" giving effective support in their alliance with Free Software - for example by not Freeing Safari itself and by just Freeing the HTML "rendering" component

This is silly. They work with the KHTML community to make safary. The head of the project, was the head of the Camino project over at Mozilla.org.

The KHTML get all of the stuff apple improves on. Apple gets to keep the NON-HTML stuff it makes.

Big deal, the licence says this, and all the people who adopted it have to live with the results. If you don't agree take it to court or revise it.

Which of the 6 is in the opinion of the Mac users incorrect?  

None are incorect perse, but you take a negative stance on what could also be construed as a posative thing.

There is proprietary software for Linux, why can't apple make proprietary software for Darwin? I.e. the Aqua layer etc.

If Apple didn't keep trying to turn a proffit, there would be no great OS at all. And they would probably be struggling like Mandrake.

Also, apple contributed some 30years of R&D to the world, so you can hardly say they never gave anything back to OSS. They gave you the idea of a GUI! And don't bring up "X11 was started in 1983!" because X11 had no clue what it was up to rather than a novel way to display terminal shells untill Apple schooled the world as to hou a GUI should work.

It's only natural that they should do it bigger and better agian. And I honestly thing linux/*NIX users are a bit jeulous, and salivate over the Aqua source, because KDE/Gnome do not work nearly as well, and Mac users only need the terminal when they WANT to use it. Not when the HAVE to.

[Faust]

Thankyou for posting a clarification of the issue and of your views.
1: We fully agree with one another.  The improvements will be of benefit and Darwin should be "more free" than it is now.
2: Here I disagree, yes they're a corporation and they're trying to sell.  But attacking nix systems this way seems to be like shooting the little fish instead of shooting the BIG fish. Yes also I do as well disagree with any Linux vendor that attacks another Linux vendor.  But *competition* is fine - healthy competition improves each side.  This isnt however showing Apple as good, it is showing the competitiors as bad which I disagree with.  it should be "apple is better" not "other nixs are crap"  If any Linux distribution calls another distribution crap then they can get fucked.  If they however say "we believe we are a good alternative" then I'm fine.  The statement is not just "trying to sell" it is "trying to kill the competition" and with the low market share Linux has on the desktop this is not only quite frankly not healthy for Linux but it will help *less* than attacking MS.  As the Mandrake CEO said (re a questionable Red Hat move I believe) "why go after the small fish? MS is the person to beat."
There is *nothing* in that ad that seriously shows how Apple is better than MS - it only shows its "advantages" over other nix OS's
3: Again I disagree.  By saying such things as "sends other Unix boxes to /dev/null"  Apple is making an apeal to nix users - ie linux.  Windows users dont know what /dev/null is so the ad is a direct attempt to grab some of the Free nixs market share.  Why publish it in Linux Format if you dont want to grab some of Linuxs market away?
4: OK, OS X is obviously going to make a dent in MS (if stupid windoids can lose their prejudices...) but see my response to 2.
5: Im not saying it *hasnt* fulfilled Im saying it has fulfilled a *bare minimum.*  eg; if company policy is that I give $2 to the starving in Tanzania once a year, than if I do so I will have fulfilled my bare minimum requirements.  But it is _still_ stingy.  With apples lawyer army there could be no possibility of "slipping off the tightrope into illegality"
6: I dont see how MS could "steal" Apples new GUI as in the Xerox example if it was under the GPL making such theft illegal but well assume thats irrelevant for now...  maybe Apple is understandably cautious after the Xerox "incident."  That said your response to point 6 is good and i'll accept it.  

Thankyou again for responding...  It is nice to have a rational response instead of mindless flames, and I dont feel Apple needs "bashing" perhaps just a reminder that Linux does not need to be attacked for Apple to suceed.  It *is* undeniably a smooth, refined, intuitive, and pretty OS i must admit, but I still prefer Linux and I dont want to see my lovely OS being "cast aside" as "irrelevant" or any such.
Again please stay as you do provide these forums with good input, and good input produces good output (in both shells and biology...)