A civilised political discussion

[skyman8081]

PLEASE READ THIS POST FIRST

In an attempt to see if it is possible to have a civilised political discussion, without resorting to flaming.  Until now, this has largely been thought to be impossible, due to the anonymitity and lack of consequences of posting on the internet.

Therefore ANY AND ALL parties who wish to participate agree, by posting in this thread, that they will refrain from any and all form of Flaming, Ad hominem or any logical fallacy, Name-Calling of any kind, or swearing, whatsoever.  At the first sign of those signs, this thread will be binned.  This is why I am requesting the lounge mods to bin the thread at the first flame, derogatory term, improper logic, or swear word.


With that preface in place, I will seed this discussion, remember the rules.

While I do not agree with everything that President Bush has done while he was in office.  I do feel that he best represents my interests as a citizen of the United States of America, and if I had the ability to vote in the 2004 election, I would vote for him.

[xyle_one]

Good for you  

It is still very up in the air for me as to who I am going to vote for.

[ September 01, 2004: Message edited by: xyle_one ]

[flap]

How do you think he represents your interests?

[ September 01, 2004: Message edited by: flap ]

[Paladin9]

Why I dont like Bush:

1. Going out of his way to ban gay marrige.  Bush supporters often say that Bush is spreading "freedom" in the middle east.  I guess he wants to do the opposite here at home.  Banning gay marrige does not sound like a "free" thing to do to me.

2. Tax cuts.  Just about everyone (except people who are loyal to Bush) say that Bush's tax cuts really are only for the upper class.  Fuck that.  

3. WAR.  We are in a nastly little situation in Iraq right now.  I am not sure that pulling out is a good idea, but Bush REALLY fucked up by starting the war in Iraq in the fist place.

4. Environment.  Bush, like a lot of republicans, shit all over the environment.  It is really not that hard to keep it clean people.

That is all for now

[hm_murdock]

quote:Why I dont like Bush:

1. Going out of his way to ban gay marrige. Bush supporters often say that Bush is spreading "freedom" in the middle east. I guess he wants to do the opposite here at home. Banning gay marrige does not sound like a "free" thing to do to me.

Freedom is only for the people that Bush and the Fundamentalist "Religous Right" smile upon.

 

quote:2. Tax cuts. Just about everyone (except people who are loyal to Bush) say that Bush's tax cuts really are only for the upper class. Fuck that.

Not much more I can say... Bush is an upper-class whore. He does what they want and they give him money for it.

 

quote:3. WAR. We are in a nastly little situation in Iraq right now. I am not sure that pulling out is a good idea, but Bush REALLY fucked up by starting the war in Iraq in the fist place.

Yes, but... I think it was good that Hussein was finally actually dealt with. I've seen all of Bush's evidence that Saddam Hussein had WMDs and supported terrorism, but I've also seen the evidence brought back by the UN saying that he had no big bombs, and hadn't supported the terrorists. Either way, I think that it's still good that he's now in custody. If for no other reason than his own personal safety. He was a tyrant and gassed his own people. That's not our business, but that's never stopped us from making it our business in the past.

 

quote:4. Environment. Bush, like a lot of republicans, shit all over the environment. It is really not that hard to keep it clean people.

And beyond that, they're hostile toward people who believe in a clean environment. Remember, keeping the earth clean cuts into profit margins.

[WMD]

Environment looks fine to me. *shrugs*
What's wrong with it? (Don't bother with things that started before Bush was around.)

Gay Marriage: Cheney doesn't support Bush's amendment.  Since many believe Bush is Cheney's puppet, either this is a break from that, or the ban won't ever see the light of day.

Taxes:  You know what top 1% that John Kerry talks about, that he'll take the cuts away from?  Take a guess what percentage of the total they pay....it's 32% now.  That's more than before the tax cuts!  (Yes, that's possible.)
Here: http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=5746&type=1
This means that: The top 1% of income earners pay about 32% of all income taxes. The top 5% pays 51.4%. The top 10% of high income earners, pay 63.5%. The top 20% of income earners pays 78% of all federal income taxes.
So, the tax system is already very progressive, and it isn't changing.  No reason to worry.

[hm_murdock]

Wait... doesn't that add up to more than 100%?

[WMD]

^ It's cumulative.

[Stilly]

im actually hearing my parents talking about how the tax cuts are benefitting them.

my dads a professor and my moms works at a museum. i go to an expensive private school and my sister is a freshman in college.

the tax cuts ARE helping.

[Laukev7]

Of course, given the social positions of your family, you may benefit from the tax cuts. But can the same be said of people with low revenues? I doubt it.

We could also waste time arguing how Adolf Hitler benefitted Germany economically with his policies, but that wouldn't excuse his crimes, now would it?

The Bush administration is a fascist regime. No, I'm not exaggering. Since recently, it has matched to an extent and at a time or another each of the 14 characteristics of fascism as listed by Dr. Britt:

     

quote: 1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism

Recently I went to Plattsburgh, and in a single day I must have seen more than 50 flags in various locations, from houses to stores and even children drawings. I found that very disturbing. Even in Quebec, with the sentiments of separatism, there aren't nearly as much. (And before anyone points out at my sig, no, it's not because I'm patriotic, it's because I still haven't found anything more original.)

     

quote: 2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

Two words: PATRIOT Act.

     

quote: 3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

War on terrorism. Axis of Evil. Al Qaeda. Note how quick the authorities were to point the finger on Osama Bin Laden. To date, I haven't seen any concrete proof that he was responsible of the attacks. Not to mention using 9/11 as a pretext to go to war against Saddam Hussein.

     

quote: 4. Supremacy of the Military

Donald Rumsfeld is talking about arming space vessels. The US spends $343 billion per year, even as the federal defecit is reaching a record high. Though this may represent a low percentage, this does not take into account the astronomical amounts of military aid they supply to their allies, as well as the money wasted in useless military bases in England and Germany. The Jessica Lynch scandal is but one example of how incredible the glorification of the military has become.

     

quote: 5. Rampant Sexism

When the anti-abortion legislation was passed, Bush was surrounded by men. Now, I have to admit, this is the only action of the Bush regime I can honestly approve, but this clearly shows the inequality where policies are enforced. Not to mention the attempts to integrate the regressive anti-gay marriage laws into the constitution.

     

quote: 6. Controlled Mass Media  

Look  who owns ABCNNBCBS and FOX. A few huge corporations own the major TV channels in the United States (and yes, it's a problem in the rest of the world, too!)

     

quote: 7. Obsession with National Security

Obvious. See 1, 3 and 4.

     

quote: 8. Religion and Government are Intertwined

Ashcroft is part of an extremist Christian sect. He wrote his own religios song and forces his employees to sing it. Bush constantly refers to religion. And I will let this article speak for itself:

     

quote: ``Father, help us. Help us to save this nation, this nation that has always said that it was under you, under God. Help us to rise and to raise up the banner that will re-elect George W. Bush,'' the Rev. Lou Sheldon, of Anaheim, head of the conservative Traditional Values Coalition, told about 250 delegates, alternates and guests. ``Yes, oh God, forgive us if we are too partisan. But we believe so much as at stake in having him there to guide us in what we believe.''

     

quote: 9. Corporate Power is Protected

Haliburton. Enron. Microsoft. Oil companies. Need I say more?

     

quote: 10. Labor Power is Suppressed

Not obvious at first sight, but this article explains that the Bush administration is taking swipes at worker rights. A proeminent one is the proposal to eliminate overtime pay.

     

quote: 11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

People who are remotely interested in technology are called nerds or geeks. People who think the government is lying to them are called 'conspiracy nuts'. People who denounce Israel's policies are called 'anti-Semites'.

As for the arts, I did not think it was the case in the US, but according to this article, it apparently is.

Disclaimer: this criterion does not automatically make a country fascist, and it could be applied to many countries in the world.

     

quote: 12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment

PATRIOT Act. As well as the fact that the US is one of the only countries in the industrialised world to still have the death penalty (even for minors).

     

quote: 13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

See 9. Also, the fact that a significant number of the signatories of the PNAC, which advocates 'American global leadership' are high officials of the current administration, such as Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Douglas Feith and Paul Wolfowitz.

     

quote: 14. Fraudulent Elections

Many doubts have been casted over the validity of the 2000 elections, such as the reliability of the Diebold machines and the fact that Black Americans have been barred from the elections in Florida (which is coincidentially governed by George W. Bush's brother, Jeb Bush).


DISCLAIMER: while this message may seem offensive to some people, the intent is NOT to denigrate Americans or the United States. It should be taken as a warning about the direction in which the country is being led by the Bush administration. Any labelling of a forum member as 'anti-American' shall be treated as name calling and will result in the automatic binning of the thread, in compliance to the rules established by the original poster.

[ September 01, 2004: Message edited by: Laukev7 / BOB ]

[WMD]

Well, if those 14 points about Facism are correct (which I don't doubt), then you could argue that the US has been Facist for quite a long time.  Clinton signed the DMCA and MS got away.  Enron started their shit in 1999.  And that's just the beginning.

PATRIOT Act: That thing is a joke.  It's days are numbered even if Bush gets re-elected.  Bush says he "wants to make it permanent" - silly him, there's no such thing in US law.  And if Bush is re-elected, I can almost guarentee a Dem winning in '08, which would kill it.  (I can even see myself voting for that person.)

ABCNNBCBS: Never heard that before...good one.      Luckily, independent stuff via Internet can't really be stopped.  I have some indymedia.org streams in my Winamp list (inclucing them at the RNC).  Even if suppression of this is seeked by the government, that's another thing they won't be able to pull off.

Ashcroft: He can jabber about God all he wants, doesn't bother me.  Why?  Because like any extremist, he won't get away with much of what he appears to want.  He's raided houses for file-sharers, and that's unrelated to religion: it's just the same corporate-controlled shit that's been out there for quite a while.  RIAA, anyone?  Oh, he wrote the Patriot Act...I still blame the Congress (the REAL power in this country) for voting for it right away.  "Oh, but we NEED it!" coming from a cabinet member doesn't sound convincing to me.

Elections: Even if the disenfranchisment story is all true (94,000 purged, was it?), there was still one thing that stopped Gore: voter stupidity.  In Palm Beach county (which, BTW, is only half an hour from here), the little arrow next to Gore's name didn't seem to mean anything.   :rolleyes:    I've seen the ballot - only a true asshat would mess that up - and, apparently, there were 19,000 asshats in P.B. County.  Easy Gore win otherwise.  "Make it easier"...please, voting is important, perhaps people should take some responsibility (gasp    ) and double-check things.
Then there's the recount itself, and counting dimpled ballots.  They had a system down well, so why stop it?  Here's why: a few days after the election, MSNBC got a hold a bunch of ballots and styli used, and tried to purposely make a dimple in the ballot.  They couldn't do it!  Either nothing happened, or it punched through the card.  That raises the question...where did they come from then?  One possibility is that the automatic counting machines from Nov. 8 created those marks.  Last I checked, a machine can't vote.      Ok, not funny, but still.

Now, I'm not a die-hard Bush supporter - in fact, every political post I make here seems to confuse me more (or get me nowhere).  I agree that's there's problems that I don't like, and then feel like just dealing with them - all in the span of ten minutes of typing.  WTF is wrong with me?  

[ September 02, 2004: Message edited by: WMD ]

[Aloone_Jonez]

quote:Originally posted by Sauron / B0B:
While I do not agree with everything that President Bush has done while he was in office.  I do feel that he best represents my interests as a citizen of the United States of America, and if I had the ability to vote in the 2004 election, I would vote for him.

Hang on a second, no offence or anything but doesn

[flap]

quote:Because of this I feel that gay couples should be able to sign a legally binding contract declaring their love, thus giving them the same rights as a married couple.

Why not let them get married then?

[ September 02, 2004: Message edited by: flap ]

[Laukev7]

WMD: Yes, you could argue that many of the characteristics of fascism have been present for a long time in the US (such as the corporatism and the nationalism). However, only recently have they all really come together. I think the point when the US could be qualified a fascist state for the first time was in the mid-term of the Bush administration, after he passed the PATRIOT Act and anti-labour laws, for example.

Of course, as you point out, Bush is not the sole responsible of the situation. Though I think that Bush and his neoconservative cronies have contributed the most to put the US in deep trouble, both parties as well as Congress are deeply corrupt (after all, Democratic politicians such as Kerry have also voted for the PATRIOT Act and the war). Like for any fascist state, the complicity of the whole government and part of the people was required. However, what must also be taken into account is the fact that the PATRIOT Act has been passed in a hurry, and no one had actually read it.

I hope for you that the PATRIOT Act gets repealed. And fortunately, there is an independent media. I can only hope that the tendency reverses, but you can't just expect that problem to solve itself. I understand your situation, but the best course of action is to denounce the tendency, not assume that other administrations are going to save you. Don't forget Nazi Germany, where the democracy wasn't restored until the end of a bloody war.

[ September 02, 2004: Message edited by: Laukev7 / BOB ]

[WMD]

quote:However, what must also be taken into account is the fact that the PATRIOT Act has been passed in a hurry, and no one had actually read it.

Yeah, I know, that's why I blame the Congress - they didn't bother to read it.  Usually if it isn't read, the person doesn't vote (like Kerry, out campaigning, has voted for hardly anything).  But the Senate went 99 to 1 on a law nobody read?   :rolleyes:  

 

quote:I hope for you that the PATRIOT Act gets repealed.

Thank you    .

 

quote:I can only hope that the tendency reverses, but you can't just expect that problem to solve itself.

I can practically guarentee a Democrat winning in '08 if Bush gets reelected.  And if he doesn't, there's a Democrat in '04.  And I don't expect all hell to break loose if he's reelected.  All law is reversible, which inevitably happens (Prohibition).

[ September 02, 2004: Message edited by: WMD ]