Socialist or immature

[Kintaro]

I noticed recently, anybody who does anything against capitalism, gets called Immature, and told to grow up, this has been Stallman, and now me. Which pisses me off quite a bit, capitalism is bullshit, and people actually stick up for it, what has happened, maybe we should be more anti-capitalist, to make yourself stand out with your other socialist buddys can make a stance against this shit.

[xyle_one]

i have come to the realization that i am not a capitalist. at least not a hardcore capitalist. i do not, however, know what i would consider myself..

[Kintaro]

I do things for the people not money, I am a socialist.

[Interscope]

My thoughts on capitalism.  

 

quote:
In february 1920, a correspondent of an American Newspaper asked Lenin:
"Should Russia fear from Contra-Revolutionary interferances coming from the outside?"
Lenin anwserd:
"Unfortunately, yes. Because the Capitalists are ignorant and greedy. They have done a few ignorant and greedy attempts at interfering our activities, that we should fear of it's repeat untill the workers and the peasants of every country educate their Capitalists to be humans."

bad translation, but oh well.

[zoolooo]

"Immature" "Grow up!"

Is that the best argument they can come up with?

They are mentalists.

zooloo

[Siplus]

you people have problems. I AM a capitalist. (and proud of it)

socialism has one major fault that stands in the way of it being better then capitalism, and one fault only. This fault is that humans are, only human

communism is good in theory, but humans need a leader, and eventually, that leader will crave absolute power of his country (it is possible to have a leader that will generally want to help people and have everything equal, but this will not last long)

in socialism, there is no incentive for working hard, because you will get nothing out of it. in capitalism, however, if you work hard, you will probibly do well (not in all cases, i know)

humans are not logical, so a logical form of government simply can not work.

[slave]

disclaimer:  this is just a rant, nothing personal.  I may not even agree with half of what I say

you people have problems. I AM a capitalist. (and proud of it)

Ok fair enough, what are our problems?

socialism has one major fault that stands in the way of it being better then capitalism, and one fault only. This fault is that humans are, only human

Humans have forgotten their roots.  They are social animals after all, and have a natural urge to help each other.  We need a society that encourages this instead of a dog-eat-dog jungle.

communism is good in theory, but humans need a leader, and eventually, that leader will crave absolute power of his country (it is possible to have a leader that will generally want to help people and have everything equal, but this will not last long)

Humans don't need a leader, what they need is leadership, freethought and the ability to govern themselves.  We should never have one leader to "lead" us.  That is a monarchy.  

It is not inevitable that people have to be sheep.  Most people simply have been raised from an early age to accept whatever crap is shoved down their throat.  (We have organized religion partly to blaim for this)

in socialism, there is no incentive for working hard, because you will get nothing out of it. in capitalism, however, if you work hard, you will probibly do well (not in all cases, i know)

You're thinking like a capitalist.  Sure, "profit" may be a reason for working for something in its own narrow terms, but when people start working only for profit it creates a kind of intangible ethical pollution that encourages selfishness and a generally amoral attitude towards your fellow human being.  Money is not the only reward for work, anyway.  People should work for something because it is worth working for, or because it serves society in some way.  The idea of working purely for the advancement of society, and also one's own personal enjoyment, is the most noble reason to work at anything in my opinion.  Think about this situation to help you visualize the difference in motivation for working in capitalism and socialism:

There is an old lady who is having trouble crossing a busy street.

The capitalist helps her because he is expecting to be rewarded by her with money.

The socialist helps her because he's a kind person who enjoys helping his fellow human for its own sake.

Helping people is its own reward.  Doesn't it feel good to help people?  If everyone helped each other a little more without thought of "profit" or a cash reward our society would be for the better.

I also find the comment about people usually being rewarded properly for their work in capitalism kind of funny.  In my country (the US) we have teachers that aren't being paid shit and yet Michael Jackson has more fucking moulla than 500 teachers ever will.  In this country, crime and inheritance are the preferred ways of making money, and "work" is something to be done by, well, the working class.  I doubt that the fat cats running Enron did very much work besides cooking the books and touring multimillion dollar houses they planned on buying with their ill-gotten gains.   Selling proprietary software is also popular (think Bill Gates, the richest man in the world)

humans are not logical, so a logical form of government simply can not work.

That is what capitalists have been saying for years:  "people are too stupid and selfish for socialism to work!"

People are not naturally like this.  Our society has made them this way.

I for one have greater faith in humanity.


You may say that I'm a dreamer,
but I'm not the only one.
Someday I hope you'll join us,
and the world will live as one.

- from "Imagine", by John Lennon

[ March 13, 2003: Message edited by: Linux User #5225982375 ]

[Kintaro]

quote:Originally posted by Siplus: linux advocate:

in socialism, there is no incentive for working hard, because you will get nothing out of it. in capitalism, however, if you work hard, you will probibly do well (not in all cases, i know)

No in socialism, you work for what is needed, in capitalism, people work work work, thinking thats "what they should do" then they grow old and die. I will not live that life. I want to live live live, if everyone does there bit, then we have no need to ever work hard. We just do what is needed to live, and enjoy ourselfs. Whereas capitalism is a poor ass excuse for making the rich richer, and the poor poorer. Why should one suffer because anoyher has no life.

[Kintaro]

Linux user points it out with his old lady example.

In fact, siplus, i have this for you

[Calum]

maybe there are reasons other than their politics that they say you are immature?  

[Siplus]

hmm...somehow i don't remember resorting to personal attacks in my post. i respect your opinions about socialism/capitialsim...

 

quote:It is not inevitable that people have to be sheep. Most people simply have been raised from an early age to accept whatever crap is shoved down their throat.  

true. but i do not see people being raised differently in the near future


 

quote: Helping people is its own reward. Doesn't it feel good to help people? If everyone helped each other a little more without thought of "profit" or a cash reward our society would be for the better.

point taken.

 

quote: I for one have greater faith in humanity.
 

sadly, i don't. i wish i could have hope for humanity like you

i see only distruction and corruption, to the point where we can never achive a perfect society. that is why i think socialism will never work, because, as you said 'we' capitialists say that people are too stupid, people are too stupid. they can not handle the concept of helping people without monetary compensation. it would take forever to change that fact. education, at least in the USA, is horrible and little or nothing is happening to fix that. but look at countries who claim to be 'communist' (which is of course a type of socialism), they are even worce (china, north korea...)

our world is not perfect. capitialism is our best choice for what we have to work with in this world. if we manage to improve the public to be compatible with socialism, i would accept it fully

[slave]

Well, never say never.  Our society may have a bright future after all.

[Calum]

interestingly, while i agree with siplus on many points, generally i agree with his observations, although i don't think i am quite so extreme about how everything's going down the shitter (but maybe i'm reading it wrong) because as far as i can see, a lot of things are going down the shitter, but where there's life there's hope et c. the only way you'll change something is by doing things, which you do do if you're alive, groaning on about how everything's shit isn't helping (not that i'm accusing siplus of that, but there are a lot of moaners out there who don't fucking do anything (for example VOTE) but they still feel like they have a right to be all holier than thou about it. as far as i'm concerned, if you didn't vote in the last election, you have no right to comment on politics (unless you were too young to vote obviously) and that goes for other things too).

but anyway like i was saying, while i agree with siplus' observations to a good degree, i am a socialist. a real socialist. i voted for the scottish socialist party in the last election because they were the party i most agreed with. there is a cultural need for me to vote for the scottish nationalists right now, but fuck, the nationalists are so childish and the socialists just have their shit together. socialists deserve to be heard in parliament. go and browse their website to see what i mean.

i just do not have any respect for somebody who says the world's fucked so capitalism is the best bet. no it is not. capitalism is the easy way out. you are saying "we're all cunts, so we might as well act it", but bullshit! why not try and better your society while you're on this planet? you'll get a shitload of satisfaction from that, more than you ever would money in the bank and a history of squashing your enemies in the business arena.

sadly, people don't know the benefits of socialism if they don't try it.

largely it is a very similar setup as the microsoft/linux setup. i will leave you to figure out which analogises socialism and which capitalism.

[cahult]

I am what you might call a social liberal, in between right and left, if there really is such a thing as right and left in politics. Marx once said that religion is an opium for the people. I would like to add that politics is heroin for the people...

[billy_gates]

First off I want to say, I did not read the whole post, too boring for me.  But I did want to reply.  I, although only 16 consider myself to be a hard on conservative capitalist.  I would not go so far as to consider you immature or stupid or whatever for believing in something different.  My personal opinion however is....If you don't want to be in a capitalist government move to china or north korea or some solcialist/communist country.  That way you can be with your other believers.  Although, based on the conditions in most of those countries I do not think they believe in socialism/communism.

I admit there are faults to capitalism, as we are seeing now with these corporate scandals, but I think our mix of capitalism and socialism, to allow people to work for money, but try to limit their ability to screw other people, is working pretty well so far.