Author Topic: The end of commercial DOS? (Read 1028 times)

flap · « **Reply #15 on:** 21 June 2004, 01:49 »

So it does include GNU software then? I got the impression from the website that it didn't.

quote:
systems such as Debian GNU/Linux are misrepresenting themselves in that case since they include a lot of non GNU software

So a GNU system ceases to be GNU as soon as you add non-GNU software to it? That's like saying that Windows isn't Windows if it's distributed with non-Microsoft software.

quote:
draw your line where you may

I'm not drawing any line. If it doesn't include GNU software then it isn't any more a GNU system than Windows is. If on the other hand it is powered by GNU software then it is a GNU system.

[ June 20, 2004: Message edited by: flap ]

Calum · « **Reply #16 on:** 24 June 2004, 03:06 »

quote:
Originally posted by flap:
So a GNU system ceases to be GNU as soon as you add non-GNU software to it? That's like saying that Windows isn't Windows if it's distributed with non-Microsoft software.

that's what i thought you were saying in the first place, although i think it is a bit extreme.

now it looks as though you were just unaware that some gnu stuff was included in FreeDOS, although i am still a bit hazy about what constitutes GNU software in this case, does it have to be from the FSF to qualify? i am sure you'd agree that GIMP is GNU software, but it was adopted by the GNU project a good while after it was made available, as were many other projects, like abiword for example, an old piece of software recently included in the GNOME-Office suite, for GNOME, undisputably a GNU set of programs.

anyway. All i was saying was that in my opinion FreeDOS is as much a GNU system as many linux dostributions are, and nobody says linux is not a GNU system, in fact Stallman and others often attempt to get linux distros to describe themselves as GNU systems (even though most of them tend to have less than 30% of "GNU" software).

flap · « **Reply #17 on:** 24 June 2004, 03:41 »

Ok, I think there's some confusion about what we're talking about. The issue of whether or not an operating system can be considered to be a GNU system is separate from the issue of whether or not a single piece of software is part of the GNU project.

The question of whether a whole operating system can be considered to be a GNU system (i.e. a system powered by, but not necessarily consisting solely of, GNU software) is contentious (e.g. the "Linux" vs "GNU/Linux" question). Whether or not software is GNU software is unambiguous - a program is part of GNU if the GNU project says it is. For example, no "gnutella" clients are part of GNU, despite their misleading name. You're right that the programs don't have to have actually come from the FSF to be part of GNU, but they do have to acknowledged as GNU programs by the FSF.

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/categories.html#GNUsoftware

quote:
GNU software is software that is released under the auspices of the GNU Project. If a program is GNU software, we also say that it is a GNU program or a GNU package. The README or manual of a GNU package should say it is one; also, the Free Software Directory indentifies all GNU packages.

Most GNU software is copylefted , but not all; however, all GNU software must be free software.

Some GNU software is written by staff of the Free Software Foundation, but most GNU software is contributed by volunteers. Some contributed software is copyrighted by the Free Software Foundation; some is copyrighted by the contributors who wrote it.

quote:
All i was saying was that in my opinion FreeDOS is as much a GNU system as many linux dostributions are, and nobody says linux is not a GNU system

That isn't really the case if the system isn't dependent on GNU software (even if it includes some GNU programs) in order to work at all, as Linux-based systems typically are.

[ June 23, 2004: Message edited by: flap ]

Calum · « **Reply #18 on:** 4 August 2004, 05:26 »

so, in a nutshell, Linux is GNU because stallman wants it to be, but FreeDOS isn't because stallman couldn't give two hoots?

sounds like a dumb way of figuring it out, but if this is the right way of defining it then fair enough, but i still think it's confusing.

flap · « **Reply #19 on:** 4 August 2004, 05:56 »

It really isn't confusing. I think you're still misunderstanding the difference between software being part of the GNU project, and an Operating System being 'a GNU system'.

Firstly, I'll assume by Linux you mean GNU/Linux. Linux itself is not GNU in any way - it's not a GNU system (it's just a kernel) nor is it part of the GNU project. GNU/Linux is a GNU system because it contains GNU software, and is dependent on that software to function. FreeDOS apparently (I'm taking your word for it) contains GNU software, but I'm assuming it isn't actually dependent on it.

And software being part of the GNU project is not just a case of Stallman giving a hoot about it - the authors have to want their software to become part of GNU in the first place. Stallman can't just point arbitrarily at any piece of Free Software he likes and declare it part of GNU.

Presumably the FreeDOS authors have no desire to donate their software to the GNU project. It wouldn't be much use to GNU anyway, since the goal of GNU is to create a unix like system, and the aim of the FreeDOS software is obviously to create a DOS-like system.

[ August 03, 2004: Message edited by: flap ]

« previous next » Print Pages: 1 [2] Go Down Author Topic: The end of commercial DOS? (Read 1028 times) flap Member Posts: 1,268 Kudos: 137 The end of commercial DOS? « Reply #15 on: 21 June 2004, 01:49 » So it does include GNU software then? I got the impression from the website that it didn't. quote: systems such as Debian GNU/Linux are misrepresenting themselves in that case since they include a lot of non GNU software So a GNU system ceases to be GNU as soon as you add non-GNU software to it? That's like saying that Windows isn't Windows if it's distributed with non-Microsoft software. quote: draw your line where you may I'm not drawing any line. If it doesn't include GNU software then it isn't any more a GNU system than Windows is. If on the other hand it is powered by GNU software then it is a GNU system. [ June 20, 2004: Message edited by: flap ] Logged "While envisaging the destruction of imperialism, it is necessary to identify its head, which is none other than the United States of America." - Ernesto Che Guevara http://counterpunch.org http://globalresearch.ca Calum Global Moderator Posts: 7,812 Kudos: 1000 The end of commercial DOS? « Reply #16 on: 24 June 2004, 03:06 » quote: Originally posted by flap: So a GNU system ceases to be GNU as soon as you add non-GNU software to it? That's like saying that Windows isn't Windows if it's distributed with non-Microsoft software. that's what i thought you were saying in the first place, although i think it is a bit extreme. now it looks as though you were just unaware that some gnu stuff was included in FreeDOS, although i am still a bit hazy about what constitutes GNU software in this case, does it have to be from the FSF to qualify? i am sure you'd agree that GIMP is GNU software, but it was adopted by the GNU project a good while after it was made available, as were many other projects, like abiword for example, an old piece of software recently included in the GNOME-Office suite, for GNOME, undisputably a GNU set of programs. anyway. All i was saying was that in my opinion FreeDOS is as much a GNU system as many linux dostributions are, and nobody says linux is not a GNU system, in fact Stallman and others often attempt to get linux distros to describe themselves as GNU systems (even though most of them tend to have less than 30% of "GNU" software). Logged visit these websites and make yourself happy forever: It's my music! \| My music on MySpace \| Integrational Polytheism flap Member Posts: 1,268 Kudos: 137 The end of commercial DOS? « Reply #17 on: 24 June 2004, 03:41 » Ok, I think there's some confusion about what we're talking about. The issue of whether or not an operating system can be considered to be a GNU system is separate from the issue of whether or not a single piece of software is part of the GNU project. The question of whether a whole operating system can be considered to be a GNU system (i.e. a system powered by, but not necessarily consisting solely of, GNU software) is contentious (e.g. the "Linux" vs "GNU/Linux" question). Whether or not software is GNU software is unambiguous - a program is part of GNU if the GNU project says it is. For example, no "gnutella" clients are part of GNU, despite their misleading name. You're right that the programs don't have to have actually come from the FSF to be part of GNU, but they do have to acknowledged as GNU programs by the FSF. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/categories.html#GNUsoftware quote: GNU software is software that is released under the auspices of the GNU Project. If a program is GNU software, we also say that it is a GNU program or a GNU package. The README or manual of a GNU package should say it is one; also, the Free Software Directory indentifies all GNU packages. Most GNU software is copylefted , but not all; however, all GNU software must be free software. Some GNU software is written by staff of the Free Software Foundation, but most GNU software is contributed by volunteers. Some contributed software is copyrighted by the Free Software Foundation; some is copyrighted by the contributors who wrote it. quote: All i was saying was that in my opinion FreeDOS is as much a GNU system as many linux dostributions are, and nobody says linux is not a GNU system That isn't really the case if the system isn't dependent on GNU software (even if it includes some GNU programs) in order to work at all, as Linux-based systems typically are. [ June 23, 2004: Message edited by: flap ] Logged "While envisaging the destruction of imperialism, it is necessary to identify its head, which is none other than the United States of America." - Ernesto Che Guevara http://counterpunch.org http://globalresearch.ca Calum Global Moderator Posts: 7,812 Kudos: 1000 The end of commercial DOS? « Reply #18 on: 4 August 2004, 05:26 » so, in a nutshell, Linux is GNU because stallman wants it to be, but FreeDOS isn't because stallman couldn't give two hoots? sounds like a dumb way of figuring it out, but if this is the right way of defining it then fair enough, but i still think it's confusing. Logged visit these websites and make yourself happy forever: It's my music! \| My music on MySpace \| Integrational Polytheism flap Member Posts: 1,268 Kudos: 137 The end of commercial DOS? « Reply #19 on: 4 August 2004, 05:56 » It really isn't confusing. I think you're still misunderstanding the difference between software being part of the GNU project, and an Operating System being 'a GNU system'. Firstly, I'll assume by Linux you mean GNU/Linux. Linux itself is not GNU in any way - it's not a GNU system (it's just a kernel) nor is it part of the GNU project. GNU/Linux is a GNU system because it contains GNU software, and is dependent on that software to function. FreeDOS apparently (I'm taking your word for it) contains GNU software, but I'm assuming it isn't actually dependent on it. And software being part of the GNU project is not just a case of Stallman giving a hoot about it - the authors have to want their software to become part of GNU in the first place. Stallman can't just point arbitrarily at any piece of Free Software he likes and declare it part of GNU. Presumably the FreeDOS authors have no desire to donate their software to the GNU project. It wouldn't be much use to GNU anyway, since the goal of GNU is to create a unix like system, and the aim of the FreeDOS software is obviously to create a DOS-like system. [ August 03, 2004: Message edited by: flap ] Logged "While envisaging the destruction of imperialism, it is necessary to identify its head, which is none other than the United States of America." - Ernesto Che Guevara http://counterpunch.org http://globalresearch.ca Print Pages: 1 [2] Go Up « previous next » Stop Microsoft » Forum » Operating Systems » Not Quite Mainstream OSes » The end of commercial DOS?
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