Open source hardware.

[Aloone_Jonez]

I didn't know where to post this, I thought of the GNU/Linux section but this is nothing to do with it, I then thought of the hardware section but that's MS hardware only.

Anyway, I made a point here that most hardware is closed source, i.e. you can buy a TV  and the company won't let you have access to the schematics,engineering drawings and firmware source. Now I've discovered I do have a point as someone's come up with the idea of open source hardware, they believe some of the arguments for software apply to hardware too and I agree with this.

What are your views on this?

I believe it's great to share knowledge and ideas whether it be software, hardware or anything else for that matter.

[piratePenguin]

Sweet.

Soon as free hardware starts appearing on the market, I'll use it where I can. And when it gets to the point that not-buying or otherwise supporting non-free hardware isn't a huge inconvenience, I'll use and support free software only.

I believe it's great to share knowledge and ideas whether it be software, hardware or anything else for that matter.

COMMMMUNIST!

[Jenda]

I agree. Perhaps another possible area is pharmacology. I can't imagine this happening in food, though, since there is no progress possible in the area.

[Aloone_Jonez]

piratePenguin,
This is already happening to an extent with firmware as Linux is really taking off in embedded systems, developers love it because they can tweak the source but they have to release the code they've alterd. I haven't any evedance of any of the other source such as engineering drawings and PLA code becomming more open though.

Jenda,
I did consider bringing up pharmacology in the GNU borg debate but I didn't for some reason. Some drug companies are bad for patenting their medicines, there again lot's of money is required to develop new ones (in fact a lot more than sending people into space) and they do sell them cheaper to developing countries so I'm not sure on this one.

Food is slightly different as in the EU the producers are required to list the ingrediants on the label but they don't have to disclose the exact proportions, processes and composition so for all intents and purposes it's closed.

[Jenda]

Ad food:
There is no invention or innovation in the area, apart from the problem of food production (eg. GM food). Opensourcing is no good. (And in Europe, you do NOT have to disclose the flavouring - saying artificial/identical/natural flavour is good enough.
Ad pharma:
This would only change the development process, not the sales or distribution.

OT:
Sorry to be so court lately. I'm graduating this year (for the second time - I already did in Canada) and for Czechs that is a big thing, and big oral exams too. I am being overwhelmed by school. It's not even lack of time, it's lack of energy. And to add to that, typing is still rather difficult, although much more comfortable, with the DVORAK.

[Aloone_Jonez]

Ad food:
There is no invention or innovation in the area, apart from the problem of food production (eg. GM food).

I think the food companies and top chefs would disagree. Food isn't simple it's a complex science a combination of chemistry and biology with some engineering thrown in especially if you're talking about mass production. Cooking is very unpredictable, two cakes made with the same ingrediants and cooked in the same way can taste differant because one batch of ingrediants might have slightly differant properties. For example one batch of cherries might be sweeter than another because they've had slightly more sunshine, because of this the cooks might alter their recipe on the fly by adding less suger to the batch made with the sweeter cheries.

Opensourcing is no good. (And in Europe, you do NOT have to disclose the flavouring - saying artificial/identical/natural flavour is good enough.

The purpose of the ingrediant list on the label is for people on special diets or who have allergies rather than being open source.

Ad pharma:
This would only change the development process, not the sales or distribution.

Drug companies spend vast amounts on research and development to fund this their products are sold for considerably more than their production cost, if they were made open then their competitors could sell them for much less and they'd loose their investment. Drugs always come down in price when they've payed for their research and development costs because by then a competitor has developed an alternative anyway.

The arguments about openess vs trade secrets are very similar for software as they are for anything else, the only differance is software doesn't cost anything to copy but there again neither do films or any other electronic media. Software does however contain interlectual property just like hardware and drugs, often this is the most expensive part of any product so it interests me how some companies are managing to recover this cost by selling service associated with their software because of this I don't know if it'll work for all types of software let alone anything else but never the less it seems a good idea anyway.

OT:
Sorry to be so court lately. I'm graduating this year (for the second time - I already did in Canada) and for Czechs that is a big thing, and big oral exams too. I am being overwhelmed by school. It's not even lack of time, it's lack of energy. And to add to that, typing is still rather difficult, although much more comfortable, with the DVORAK.

What's a DVORAK?

[worker201]

Jenda uses Dvorak keyboards instead of Qwerty, for some reason.

[Kintaro]

In the old days it used to be possible to fix problems on an old radio because schematics were released. This could help people a lot with newer technology. Tracing circuit diagrams is easier than reverse engineering software to fix it, but it is still time consuming and hard.

Question: are schematics actually licenced?

If they are not then someone could set up a wikipedia like site for releasing traced schematics from hardware to allow people to fix it.

[Jenda]

I think the food companies and top chefs would disagree. Food isn't simple it's a complex science a combination of chemistry and biology with some engineering thrown in especially if you're talking about mass production. Cooking is very unpredictable, two cakes made with the same ingrediants and cooked in the same way can taste differant because one batch of ingrediants might have slightly differant properties. For example one batch of cherries might be sweeter than another because they've had slightly more sunshine, because of this the cooks might alter their recipe on the fly by adding less suger to the batch made with the sweeter cheries.

I ain't saying that food is simple; I myself looove cooking and experimentation therewith. What I AM saying, OTOH, is that you don't really see the difference between todays breads and those from a few years ago (although European breads differ from American ones et al. - the Europian types are edible ), there is no simple, linear upgrading.
OK, I now realise this is quite important - and with this I have finally completed creating my opinion on music and movies as well:
In other words, this is indeed the difference between art and science. Open source seems to work very well with some models. It has always been used in general science  and knowledge (Newton, Einstein etc.), recently software and knowledge organisation (wiki), possibly eventually in pharmaceutics, chemistry, hardware. All these areas are scientific, and OBJECTIVE. They have progress, they can be written down.
Within those where this doesn't apply, the OS model cannot be used. These are all artistic, and therefore SUBJECTIVE. They depend closely on their creator (musician,  director, chef) and are unimprovable (because this is a matter of opinion), unreproductable (no two instruments, ingredients or actors are the same) and THEREFORE UNCHANGEABLE. The OS model implicitly expects the ability to change the work in question, hence cannot be used here. I am sorry for the uncontiguousness of my post - I am making this up on the go, and I'll try to get it a little more organised later. I hope some of you understand what I mean.

The purpose of the ingrediant list on the label is for people on special diets or who have allergies rather than being open source.

Yup. And people who refuse to eat certain things in principle or for health reasons.

Drug companies spend vast amounts on research and development to fund this their products are sold for considerably more than their production cost, if they were made open then their competitors could sell them for much less and they'd loose their investment. Drugs always come down in price when they've payed for their research and development costs because by then a competitor has developed an alternative anyway.

Well this doesn't really differ from the OSS model, except that casual contributors can't (yet...?) work from their home PC. The drug companies wouldn't have to spend the money, because it would be a community effort. Hopefully this would result in an overall faster dev cycle, as it does in some OSS areas.

What's a DVORAK?

Jenda uses Dvorak keyboards instead of Qwerty, for some reason.

No, you use QWERTY instead of dvorak. Read the dvzine - it's not very long. And I'm VERY happy with Dvorak. All I have to do is find out how to change the layout to include Czech and French characters.

If they are not then someone could set up a wikipedia like site for releasing traced schematics from hardware to allow people to fix it.

Wow I like this idea. Imagine how great this would be for home-brew sautering hobbyists. My friend (who introduced me to GNU/Linux) is such a person - he is making his third TESLA coil.

[Jack2000]

I think open source is good for lets say Soft/hard Ware and it should be good
in other areas too :]




ps:i am not a comunist i am the most anti-comunist guy you can find
in bulgaria (maby even europe)

[Kintaro]

Communism rules man.

[Jack2000]

DO not you be saying that to an ex-comunist country ! :]

no i am kidding  i do not care about politics

[Orethrius]

DO not you be saying that to an ex-comunist country ! :]

no i am kidding  i do not care about politics

 lol, I get where you're coming from, but please please PLEASE learn the difference between purist communism and Red Communism.  The latter is fascist, and couldn't lie any further right on the political spectrum from ideal communism.

[worker201]

The Soviet model featured central bureaucratic economic planning, something Marx and Engel never even thought of.  And Marx was strongly anti-totalitarian.  In no way could the Soviet system used in satellite states like Bulgaria be considered classically communistic.

[Jack2000]

ooohhh i get the difference