Javascript to help IE users browsing your site.

[piratePenguin]

So the majority of people won't be able view them, yes some standards, :rolleyes:  in my book standard isn't a proper standard until it's adopted by that majority so until then they aren't standards.

Well, they are without doubt W3C recommendations. I have to write my pages against something, it would be alot of work to write them against all the different browsers. So I write them against the recommendations (and yes, I've often looked for certain features in the specs. When I didn't find them, I look for another way to do it according to the specs, or ask around (I be Declan Naughton there)).

A W3C Recommendation is a specification or set of guidelines that, after extensive consensus-building, has received the endorsement of W3C Members and the Director. W3C recommends the wide deployment of its Recommendations. Note: W3C Recommendations are similar to the standards published by other organizations.

Talking of standards, Firefox, isn't W3C standards compliant, well it doesn't pass the Acid2 test.

"Firefox, isn't W3C standards compliant" What a statement.

Acid doesn't test JS. Acid doesn't test XSLT. Everything I've writen and expected a browser to render, Firefox has done. Opera hasn't, not on only one occasion. I've also messed about with XSL transformations, Opera doesn't support them whatsoever. XSL transformations version 1.0 has been a W3C recommendation since 16 November 1999).

I could rewrite the Acid page in a still-standard way and it WILL be rendered by Firefox.

[Aloone_Jonez]

So what's your point?

What's the point of the W3C recommending standards if no one follows them?

Not FireFox, Not Opera, and no way does IE.

Opera does far better than Firefox as far as the Acid2 test goes, but Opera dosen't (yet) support XSL or XSLT and it probably won't until (if ever) it becomes a proper standard which will depend on IE supporting it.

By the way JS support in Opera can be a problem in Linux, you have to install a package, fuck around a bit or something and I haven't got round to that yet.

It is a fact that most pages are designed with IE in mind and both Opera and Firefox suffer as a result, until this changes arguing about the differences between Firefox and Oper is pointless. I'd rather not waste my time and be more proactive in encouraging people to choose their browser wisely, I'd rather suggest as many browsers as possible rather than ramming Firefox down their throats.

[piratePenguin]

I just lost a Fucking Huge reply to this thread because the electricity went off, with references and shtuff. Oh well.

What's the point of the W3C recommending standards if no one follows them?

Not FireFox, Not Opera, and no way does IE.

WTH, they all look at the W3C standards - well, at least Opera and Firefox, IE sometimes.

IE6 has pretty good XSLT support (I hear. I haven't used IE since learning what XSLT stands for) (bet you weren't expecting that :p). IE5 had incompatible XSLT support.

I'm not sure how long Firefox has it, but Opera ACTUALLY DOES support XSLT in 9.0 (horray!).

Opera also, I've noticed, kicks the shit outta everyone else when it comes to parts of DOM level 3. When I looked at save support for that 'draw' thing, DOM level 3's load and save support was a saviour. Opera is the only browser I know of that supports it. But Opera won't run the fucking thing properly anyhow so...

But Jesus, the shitty Javascript support is a killer for Opera users looking at my web-apps.

By the way JS support in Opera can be a problem in Linux, you have to install a package, fuck around a bit or something and I haven't got round to that yet.

Huh, what package? I wouldn't be surprised if JS was DISABLED on the Opera I'm using, except I would be because it passed a few tests I gave it.

But JESUS. WTF is the problem with my pages I'd like to know?

It is a fact that most pages are designed with IE in mind and both Opera and Firefox suffer as a result, until this changes arguing about the differences between Firefox and Oper is pointless. I'd rather not waste my time and be more proactive in encouraging people to choose their browser wisely, I'd rather suggest as many browsers as possible rather than ramming Firefox down their throats.

If someone prefers Firefox over Opera what's wrong with recommending it to an IE-friend? It's not like anyone's recommending it to an Opera-friend.

And noone's ramming anything down anyone's throats.

[Aloone_Jonez]

I just lost a Fucking Huge reply to this thread because the electricity went off, with references and shtuff. Oh well.

I hate it when that happens, I often do long posts in OOo first then save them so I don't loose the whole post if something bad happens. Sorry I'm not meaning to take the piss though imagine you were downloading a huge file an this happened, if you used Opera then you wouldn't loose your download, I think it might also have the ability to save the contents of webforms when you session save, I can't remember and I'm posting this from IE at work so I can't check at the moment, are they planning to implement these features in Firefox any time soon?

WTH, they all look at the W3C standards - well, at least Opera and Firefox, IE sometimes.

The problem is they aren't standard, I know you, me and everyone else confuses this point but they're just guidlines. Just wondering it must be pretty difficult to implement them as no browser fully supports them, that could be the problem.

IE6 has pretty good XSLT support (I hear. I haven't used IE since learning what XSLT stands for) (bet you weren't expecting that :p). IE5 had incompatible XSLT support.

I'm not sure how long Firefox has it, but Opera ACTUALLY DOES support XSLT in 9.0 (horray!).

Opera also, I've noticed, kicks the shit outta everyone else when it comes to parts of DOM level 3. When I looked at save support for that 'draw' thing, DOM level 3's load and save support was a saviour. Opera is the only browser I know of that supports it. But Opera won't run the fucking thing properly anyhow so...

But Jesus, the shitty Javascript support is a killer for Opera users looking at my web-apps.

I see your point, each browser has its strengths and weaknesses when it comes to standards support.

Huh, what package? I wouldn't be surprised if JS was DISABLED on the Opera I'm using, except I would be because it passed a few tests I gave it.

But JESUS. WTF is the problem with my pages I'd like to know?

I'll take your word for it, I don't view many Java scripted pages, I do use Firefox and even IE when I have problems viewing something in Opera, which isn't often.

If someone prefers Firefox over Opera what's wrong with recommending it to an IE-friend? It's not like anyone's recommending it to an Opera-friend.

Nothing at all, I always fact recommend them both.

And noone's ramming anything down anyone's throats.

I wan't accusing you, but some people are like people who put annoying popup boxes spamming visitors with anti-IE and pro-Firefox propaganda.

[piratePenguin]

By fluke, I got the 'draw' thing to work in opera. And now the launcher thing, it was basically the same problem. (btw performance is noticably worse in opera 9.0b, and sometimes the events get, confused... the onmouseup event doesn't seem to fire all the time. (try dragging some lines))

Constants. (the last thing I looked at)

const is a Mozilla-specific extension, it is not supported by IE or Opera.

That I fucking hate about "Javascript" - the fucking grey. Javascript was actually a Netscape thing, and is now a Mozilla thing. JScript is a Microsoft thing. ECMAScript, a SUBSET of both Javascript and JScript is the only thing standard, and Opera and everyone conforms to it. And extend it brutally (because it's quite useless on it's own) - it would be nice if the extensions were standardized (but it would probably be too much work - the implementations are about 95% similar already, but the 5% is fucking annoying).

Opera, I'm guessing, do little of the original extending, I think they just pick stuff from the Javascript and JScript stuff to implement - and they didn't take const...

So, class, what have we learned? Javascript isn't a webstandard. (It's Mozilla's)

So meh, Opera, yer not too bad afterfuckingall.

[inane]

It would be bad if they (intentionally) told Opera users they should use Firefox, maybe.

I hardly see it as bad... Opera is STILL proprietary and is just as bad, honestly. My opinion anyway.

[Aloone_Jonez]

I hardly see it as bad... Opera is STILL proprietary and is just as bad, honestly.

Oh no let's not have people using propri€tary $oftwar€z.  :rolleyes:

Seriously it's got to be better than IE, it isn't distributed with an OS, it doesn't support ActiveX, it's free (as in beer) and it's more secure than both IE and Firefox - to this date no Opera vunerabilities have been found (I know they might exist and they're harder to find as it's closed source - all the better in my oppinion).

My opinion anyway.

Of course you're entitled to it and I respect it too but many people prefer a more feature packed, less bloated browser than Firefox, for me and many other people who use this site Firefox simply isn't good enough.

Here's some news for you, some people actually choose to use IE, they don't like Firefox or Opera, they like IE, they might prefer it because it loads faster or because it displays almost all the pages on the net correctly, (apart from some Linux/Mac/FirefoxFanboy/anti-Microsoft sites which they don't view anyway), perhapps they like some extension or 3rd party software that requires IE, whatever thier reason the prefer IE. I think we should respect this, fair enough maybe some banners and links but it's bad to spam them with bs about how good Firefox is apart from the fact that some of these I've come across contain lies, it's pretty low to spam people and it'll just put them off your site.

[piratePenguin]

I hardly see it as bad... Opera is STILL proprietary and is just as bad, honestly. My opinion anyway.

Well, yes, if you wanna alert Opera users that there's a pretty good free browser called Firefox, go ahead. I won't. Only browsers that don't render my page as it should, browsers that don't pay enough attention to web-standards, will be alerted.

I wouldn't say opera is "just as bad" as IE. IE is destroying the web.

[Aloone_Jonez]

Only browsers that don't render my page as it should, browsers that don't pay enough attention to web-standards, will be alerted.

I can see your point but it is possible to create a page that follows web-standards 100% and no browser displays it properly because no browser is 100% compliant.

[solemnwarning]

I can see your point but it is possible to create a page that follows web-standards 100% and no browser displays it properly because no browser is 100% compliant.

Konqueror 3.5 can do the acid2 test fine, but no other browsers I know of can.

[piratePenguin]

I can see your point but it is possible to create a page that follows web-standards 100% and no browser displays it properly because no browser is 100% compliant.

It would depend on the browser and the standard. If I use some advanced features of e.g. CSS, I might be able to work-around, standardly, for the browsers that don't support that ADVANCED feature (this'd work with e.g. drop shadows).

The acid test page uses advanced features intentionally for something that would otherwise be fit to be done BETTER (but with the same output) with far less advanced features. If it was an actually-useful webapp I would respect it MUCH more, but I'm sure even then it could be shown that the advanced features can be worked araound in a standard way without using advanced features (which are harder to implement in browsers).

Konqueror 3.5 can do the acid2 test fine, but no other browsers I know of can.

Konqueror was the first web browser to do acid test increadibly-close-to-completely, but there was a seriously-minor problem with it (something to do with scrollbars), and then opera got to it.

[inane]

Oh no let's not have people using propri

[inane]

Konqueror 3.5 can do the acid2 test fine, but no other browsers I know of can.

Safari could BEFORE Konq... but that secret to khtml was thrown back at our qt friends from apple.

[Aloone_Jonez]

Why are you making fun of the GNU philosophy?

Because the whole "we hate propri€tary $oftwar€z" thing is plainly moronic, it doesn't help your cause, just because someone doesn't want to GPL their code it doesn't mean they have some evil agenda. I agree with many parts of the GNU philosophy, mosty with the freedom part and for me this includes the freedom to choose an open license like the GPL or BSD or to choose a proprietary licence when you release your work.

EDIT:
I also forgot to reinforce my previous point about some people prefering IE over FireFox and Opera, I think you should just leave them to it as it's their choice after all, just don't let them ask you for help if it goes down, you won't achieve anything by nagging these people apart from piss them off.

I don't get it... it's not like it's some 1337 script kiddie thing to believe.

I believe in free software, I just don't think it's always the best software, some of it's crap compared to the proprietary alternatives.

I've had more issues with Opera with plugins than in Firefox,

I've had issues with Firefox loosing my downloads when there's an interruption in the Internet connection or power supply and zooming in on pages containing pictures and Macromedia flash is ugly even with the picture zoom extension installed. I've not had to use any plugins with Opera as unlike Firefox it has all the features I need.

other than that Opera works fine and so does IE, as long as it's not by itself and has a registry guard running in the background.

To be honest, I haven't had any problems with Firefox apart from the downloads and zooming issues, oh and IE has these too, also I don't have registry guard because I don't need it.

In fact I notice very little difference... Konqueror3.2 and 3.5 is faster than any of them.

I agree Konqueror is great, it's probably the fastest browser out there apart from text mode browsers of course.

I take issue on the ideological end and I, like many others,

I myself am more objective, I look at what software fulfills my needs and then go and aquire it, sometimes free software meets my needs and often it doesn't so I'll  use something non-free. I tend to look at the price, features and integration with other software (note open standards effect this) and I read reviews and search around the Internet for information, this is all before I look at the license.

see the failure of IE as a nice step in the direction of free and open standards.

You can have free and open standards without having free and open software you know, look at Adobe Acrobat, see how PDF is a free and open standard even though the software isn't? anyway I fail to see what this has to do with IE being shit. Hardare also can suffer from problems such as closed standards but I don't hear many people bitching about closed source hardware just software, which is pretty stupid in my opinion.

It makes me feel good inside, no need to rain on our parade, dude.

Now you're really sounding like a hippy man, cool dude, nah only joking.

[piratePenguin]

I can see your point but it is possible to create a page that follows web-standards 100% and no browser displays it properly because no browser is 100% compliant.

Firefox, Opera, Konqueror, Safari. Some of the seriously advanced (standard) stuff aren't even supported by many of these generally-good (when it comes to standards) browsers, but if you're using seriously advanced stuff then obviously it's a seriously advanced page you're making - feel free to alert users that it won't be rendered, and feel free to refer them to FF/Opera/Konq/Safari or whatever good browser WILL render the page (if they're visiting the page, it should be safe to assume they want to see it. When you alert them they can make their minds up if they wanna install FF, install Opera, install GNU/Linux (for example) + Konquror or buy a Mac (so they can use Safari)).

I found a really good answer to the question "Why are standards so important?", from the dillo web site (lots of good (as in good) stuff on that site:

Why are standards so important?

When a page is not standards compliant it becomes slang, and as such its interpretation is subjective or, at best, only known to its creators.

Such pages, and particularly those with multiple slang instances, start to become only understandable by one interpreter (browser).

Once this happens, the universality of the WEB fails, because it restricts site usage to a certain browser.

Making your sites standards-compliant will help ensure every browser, old and new, will be able to present the sites properly, and also that they will work in the future, making your site accesible from a wide range of devices ranging from desktops to cell phones.

The universality and interoperability of the WEB is one of the biggest assets of mankind today. Liberty of expression and freedom of information have found their new home inside the fertile WEB space.

If you let a single corporation or entity the power to control the Internet's protocols, they would be able to control the WEB just as much as the mass-media.

Please don't let that happen.

BTW I used to use an extension that would persist Firefox. If the electricity went off, or something crashed, starting FF would just continue it like nothing happened. If I had the extension installed now and the power went off, once I run FF next time I'd still have my post infront of me. There is one problem that I heard about it though (never affected me though) - apparantly you can't install other extensions with it on (that's why I'm not installing it yet, until this is fixed).