Author Topic: I'm moving back to Opera!  (Read 21174 times)

Aloone_Jonez

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Re: I'm moving back to Opera!
« Reply #15 on: 7 January 2010, 12:39 »
Fortunately most sites I visit work with both browsers, albeit with the odd rendering error. I haven't had a problem with either of them yet.

Here's an example of a rendering error I get with Opera but not Firefox.

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/uk/ee/bedford_forecast_weather.html

I have a feeling it's due to a conflict between Opera and Windows system font being set to large. I don't think I'd get this error if I set the font size to normal. I'm not going to try now because it would involve rebooting; got to love Windows. ::)
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Aloone_Jonez

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Re: I'm moving back to Opera!
« Reply #16 on: 7 January 2010, 16:42 »
It was the Windows font setting that was causing the problem. It's still Opera's fault because the developers should have tested it with the large font setting. All of the other browsers don't seem to have this problem.

This just goes to show that there are many variables that can influence how well a browsers renders pages.
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worker201

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Re: I'm moving back to Opera!
« Reply #17 on: 7 January 2010, 23:36 »
Quote
This site baffles me.  I've pored over their code, including all their linked JavaScripts, and can't find the section of code that does the browser check.  In fact, if you look at the file javascripts/actions.js, you'll see that there is code that checks if the browser is IE5 or Navigator 4, and then programs the appropriate JavaScript calls.  There's actually client-side code in there designed to facilitate old and/or non-IE browsers!  But they must do some sort of server-side browser check somewhere.
My guess is it doesn't do a browser check, if a script fails to execute it presumes you're not using IE.

If it did a browser check, it would fail on Opera with the US set to Opera.
If a script failed to execute, an error or warning would be generated, yes?  I've been keeping the Firefox error console open while loading these pages, so I would have seen a JavaScript fail.  Also, as I said, I have looked over the code - there is no client side JavaScript that tests for browser or loads the browser check failed page that you get in Firefox.  So ergo it must be happening on the server side.

Also, Opera, as an also-ran, can fall through if it isn't tested for.  Consider the following sample code:
Code: [Select]
if browser = Firefox
then fail
else browser = IE
Obviously, this sample is an exaggeration, but I think you see how less popular browsers can fall through the cracks.

davidnix71

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Re: I'm moving back to Opera!
« Reply #18 on: 8 January 2010, 01:12 »
I went there on an Intel Mac running Firefox 3.5.6 with NoScript running. I got a small window box upper right that said I needed to enable JS to get all the features. I also have to allow OpenX.org scripts to run. They didn't seem to care about cookies if you were just looking.
« Last Edit: 8 January 2010, 01:46 by davidnix71 »

davidnix71

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Re: I'm moving back to Opera!
« Reply #19 on: 8 January 2010, 01:45 »
Code: [Select]
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
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  </li>
  <li class="top"><a class="mtab" id="mg6" title="" href="/learning/" accesskey="L"><strong>Learning</strong>

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    <!--[if gte IE 7]><!--></a><!--<![endif]-->
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  </li>


    <!--[if gte IE 7]><!--></a><!--<![endif]-->
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    <ul class="sub">
     
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  </li>

 
     
           

0"name="pcodeform" action="javascript:isarrayloaded();locationfind(document.pcodeform.postcode.value,locations);">
<label for="postcode"><strong>POSTCODE</strong></label>

<div class="ddList">

<p>JavaScript must be enabled to view this page correctly. </p>
<p><a href="/faqs/#faq1.3a">See our FAQ</a> for instructions on how to do this.</p>
<p>Alternatively, go to a <a href="/weather/uk/ee/bedford_forecast_weather_noscript.html"><strong>non-JavaScript (text-only) version of this page</strong></a></p>
</div>
</div>
</noscript>
  <
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<script type='text/javascript'><!--//<![CDATA[
   var m3_u = (location.protocol=='https:'?'[url=https://d1.openx.org/ajs.php':'http://d1.openx.org/ajs.php']https://d1.openx.org/ajs.php':'http://d1.openx.org/ajs.php'[/url]);
   var m3_r = Math.floor(Math.random()*99999999999);
   
//]]>--></script><noscript><a href='[url=http://d1.openx.org/ck.php?n=ae68da3e&amp;cb=1978175']http://d1.openx.org/ck.php?n=ae68da3e&amp;cb=1978175'[/url] target='_blank'><img src='[url=http://d1.openx.org/avw.php?zoneid=85267&amp;cb=1978175&amp;n=ae68da3e']http://d1.openx.org/avw.php?zoneid=85267&amp;cb=1978175&amp;n=ae68da3e'[/url] style='border:none;' alt=''></a></noscript>
 <!--/* OpenX Javascript Tag v2.8.2-rc25 */-->


    <div class="tintpanel folding">
  <h2 class="ghead230 foldlink">Gadgets and widgets</h2>
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    <p><a  class="noUnderline" href="/weather/uk/gadgets/vista.html"><img src="/weather/uk/gadgets/vistalogo_small.gif" alt="Vista weather gadget">&nbsp;Vista</a><br><a  class="noUnderline" href="/weather/uk/gadgets/firefox.html"><img src="/weather/uk/gadgets/firefoxlogo_small.gif" alt="Firefox weather gadget">&nbsp;Firefox</a><br><a class="noUnderline" href="/weather/uk/gadgets/igoogle.html"><img src="/weather/uk/gadgets/igooglelogo_small.gif" alt="iGoogle weather gadget"></a>&nbsp;<a class="noUnderline" href="/weather/uk/gadgets/igoogle.html">iGoogle</a></p>

    <p><a  class="noUnderline" href="/weather/uk/gadgets/">Weather gadgets</a> </p>
<p><a  class="noUnderline" href="http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/public/pws/components/">Weather widgets</a> </p>
 
<script type="text/javascript" src="/lib/includes/javascript/common_bottom.js"></script>
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<script type="text/javascript">
//<![CDATA[
var _tag=new WebTrends();
_tag.dcsGetId();
//]]>>
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<script type="text/javascript">
//<![CDATA[
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//_tag.DCSext.param_name=param_value;
_tag.dcsCollect();
//]]>>

</script>
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<div><img alt="DCSIMG" id="DCSIMG" width="1" height="1" src="http://statse.webtrendslive.com/dcshckprv00000spazrt5ckdq_6d2t/njs.gif?dcsuri=/nojavascript&amp;WT.js=No&amp;WT.tv=8.6.2"></div>
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</html>
« Last Edit: 8 January 2010, 10:15 by Refalm »

worker201

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Re: I'm moving back to Opera!
« Reply #20 on: 10 January 2010, 00:56 »
I never saw that JavaScript anywhere.  It isn't called by the main page.

Aloone_Jonez

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Re: I'm moving back to Opera!
« Reply #21 on: 10 January 2010, 17:09 »
The rendering error I mentioned above is definitely caused by the font setting: I get the same problem using Firefox under Linux. Perhaps it's the site's fault?

Here's my view regarding the standards debate and whether Gecko, Webkit, Opera etc. should support workarounds for IE only sites.

After working in the engineering profession for eight years, I realise that what matters in real life are standards that have been widely adopted. It doesn't matter whether if the W3C or ISO say X is the standard, if no one uses it, it isn't a standard. If a certain standard is supported by Opera, Internet Explorer and the Web Kit engine, then it might be a good idea for the Firefox developers to implement it, regardless of whether it is a W3C recommendation or not. I think that some IE quirks should be implemented by other browsers simply because some sites rely on them but it shouldn't be a priority and they shouldn't be implemented if doing so would break other more standards compliant sites.

I definitely do support open standards driven by many software companies and web designers, not just one fat corporation setting proprietary standards locking everyone into their software. Fortunately things seem to have improved a lot in the last five years and I think users not only have a choice between IE and Firefox but also, Opera Chrome etc. is a really good thing. My main gripe with IE at the moment is not supporting SVG in favour of Silverlight. SVG is quite popular and is widely used by many sites including Winpedia, virtually no one uses Silver light so SVG should be a priority.
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piratePenguin

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Re: I'm moving back to Opera!
« Reply #22 on: 10 January 2010, 19:37 »
A gaping question for me to you Aloone is, on your own day to day browsing of the web are you actually experiencing less rendering issues on Opera than on Firefox? This is the only question that needs to be answered when it come to rendering engine support from the users point of view.

Bear in mind that here's a webpage we've forgotten to bring up: the microsuck homepage. edit: guess that applies no more?

Firefox doesn't do user agent switching for websites that deliver different content based on UA string, it doesn't have developer-written site specific style sheets saved to work around the problem on a page-by-page basis, it has instead simply become as far as I know, the best at the best for rendering IE hacks over the years in getting to where it is, and if it fails somewhere, click Help > Report a Problem on a misbehaving page. If it's an actual problem for Firefoxes webpage support, I'm sure someone will fix it for the four hundred million or so users*.

One webpage can be wrong.

* Firefox has 24.72% market share according to Wikipedia, and there are 1.7 billion internet users according to http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm
« Last Edit: 10 January 2010, 19:41 by piratePenguin »
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Aloone_Jonez

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Re: I'm moving back to Opera!
« Reply #23 on: 10 January 2010, 20:39 »
A gaping question for me to you Aloone is, on your own day to day browsing of the web are you actually experiencing less rendering issues on Opera than on Firefox? This is the only question that needs to be answered when it come to rendering engine support from the users point of view.
I don't get very many rendering issues with either browser so I haven't notice much difference.

It's just something I noticed when looking at a few the supposedly IE-only sites on the list with Opera. Some of the sites didn't work on Firefox or Opera so I decided to use UA switching (both in Opera and in Firefox, using the extension) to spoof IE. The result of my very unscientific test I noticed that Opera generally did a better job of rendering sites that actively block it. Chrome also did a good job at rendering some IE only sites, although I didn't try UA spoofing because I didn't know how/if it's possible.

Quote
Bear in mind that here's a webpage we've forgotten to bring up: the microsuck homepage. edit: guess that applies no more?
I lately discovered that it was a problem for all browsers. The animated gif with fireworks had been replaced with "{ED7BA470-8E54-465E-825C-99712043E01C}" in between me visiting this site with Firefox and Opera.

Quote
Firefox doesn't do user agent switching for websites that deliver different content based on UA string, it doesn't have developer-written site specific style sheets saved to work around the problem on a page-by-page basis, it has instead simply become as far as I know, the best at the best for rendering IE hacks over the years in getting to where it is, and if it fails somewhere, click Help > Report a Problem on a misbehaving page.
Opera doesn't do anything clever like automatically switch the UA according to the site, you need to do that yourself. It also has the facility to report broken sites to the developers.

Quote
If it's an actual problem for Firefoxes webpage support, I'm sure someone will fix it for the four hundred million or so users*.

One webpage can be wrong.

* Firefox has 24.72% market share according to Wikipedia, and there are 1.7 billion internet users according to http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm
For a start there are many different measures of browser market share and since when did that make a difference to quality? Internet explorer has over four times Firefox's market share, it must be better.   ::)

I've just got Opera installed on Linux, it looks pretty good, not much different than it did under Windows. I've still got to get round to setting up adblock but when I do I'll start using it as my main browser.

EDIT:
You know the rendering error I was experiencing with Firfox under Linux and Opera under Windows?

It doesn't occur with Opera under Linux.

It's funny how changing the OS reverses the situation. One might have though that an OSS browser would work better under an OSS OS.  ;D
« Last Edit: 11 January 2010, 15:15 by Aloone_Jonez »
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davidnix71

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Re: I'm moving back to Opera!
« Reply #24 on: 10 January 2010, 20:55 »
Worker, the code snippets I posted are part of the Page Source taken by right-clicking Firefox while mouse hovering the fully loaded page. I only posted part of the code because it is so long it won't post here (>32k chararcters).

I had to allow both the host url and Openx to run scripts and allowed cookies. I think maybe there is an OpenX server running locally that handles some function calls.

The page renders well for me.

Aloone_Jonez

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Re: I'm moving back to Opera!
« Reply #25 on: 11 January 2010, 00:31 »
Why not attach it?

I've just tried Chromium for Linux and it seems really good. It has extensions, including Adblock. The Adblock isn't as good as Firefox's, some elements appear then vanish and I've only managed to find one extension that blocks annoying content link and even then it didn't block it completely, the blue link appears, it just doesn't pop-up then the mouse is moved over it. From what I've gathered this is an inherent flaw in Chromium rather than any of the three extensions I tried. I hope it gets fixed soon because it's putting me off using it at the moment.

https://chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/gighmmpiobklfepjocnamgkkbiglidom

It's faster than Firefox apart from on some ad-infested pages which take slightly longer to load the elements then hide them and it seems to do a better job at loading IE-only sites. Best of all it's open source which will keep the FOSS fanboyz happy.

I've come to the conclusion that WebKit>Gecko, it just seems lighter, faster and the fact that most WebKit browsers pass the Acid3 test seems to suggest better standards compliance too.
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Aloone_Jonez

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Re: I'm moving back to Opera!
« Reply #26 on: 11 January 2010, 14:46 »
Here's a site which doesn't render correctly in either Firefox or Opera but it works perfectly in Safari and Chrome for Windows. It also breaks in IE 8, unless the compatibility mode is turned on. I've yet to try it under Linux.
http://www.quranicpath.com/

EDIT:
The site got fixed.
« Last Edit: 11 January 2010, 20:49 by Aloone_Jonez »
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piratePenguin

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Re: I'm moving back to Opera!
« Reply #27 on: 11 January 2010, 20:19 »
A gaping question for me to you Aloone is, on your own day to day browsing of the web are you actually experiencing less rendering issues on Opera than on Firefox? This is the only question that needs to be answered when it come to rendering engine support from the users point of view.
I don't get very many rendering issues with either browser so I haven't notice much difference.

It's just something I noticed when looking at a few the supposedly IE-only sites on the list with Opera. Some of the sites didn't work on Firefox or Opera so I decided to use UA switching (both in Opera and in Firefox, using the extension) to spoof IE. The result of my very unscientific test I noticed that Opera generally did a better job of rendering sites that actively block it. Chrome also did a good job at rendering some IE only sites, although I didn't try UA spoofing because I didn't know how/if it's possible.

Quote
Bear in mind that here's a webpage we've forgotten to bring up: the microsuck homepage. edit: guess that applies no more?
I lately discovered that it was a problem for all browsers. The animated gif with fireworks had been replaced with "{ED7BA470-8E54-465E-825C-99712043E01C}" in between me visiting this site with Firefox and Opera.

Quote
Firefox doesn't do user agent switching for websites that deliver different content based on UA string, it doesn't have developer-written site specific style sheets saved to work around the problem on a page-by-page basis, it has instead simply become as far as I know, the best at the best for rendering IE hacks over the years in getting to where it is, and if it fails somewhere, click Help > Report a Problem on a misbehaving page.
Opera doesn't do anything clever like automatically switch the UA according to the site, you need to do that yourself. It also has the facility to report broken sites to the developers.

Quote
If it's an actual problem for Firefoxes webpage support, I'm sure someone will fix it for the four hundred million or so users*.

One webpage can be wrong.

* Firefox has 24.72% market share according to Wikipedia, and there are 1.7 billion internet users according to http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm
For a start there are many different measures of browser market share and since when did that make a difference to quality? Internet explorer has over four times Firefox's market share, it must be better.   ::)
You're still this immature?

goddamn
"What you share with the world is what it keeps of you."
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a poem by my computer, Macintosh Vigilante
Macintosh amends a damned around the requested typewriter. Macintosh urges a scarce design. Macintosh postulates an autobiography. Macintosh tolls the solo variant. Why does a winter audience delay macintosh? The maker tosses macintosh. Beneath female suffers a double scum. How will a rat cube the heavier cricket? Macintosh calls a method. Can macintosh nest opposite the headache? Macintosh ties the wrong fairy. When can macintosh stem the land gang? Female aborts underneath macintosh. Inside macintosh waffles female. Next to macintosh worries a well.

Aloone_Jonez

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Re: I'm moving back to Opera!
« Reply #28 on: 11 January 2010, 20:55 »
You're still this immature?

goddamn

Why are you calling me immature?

I'm not the one who started name calling.
« Last Edit: 11 January 2010, 20:57 by Aloone_Jonez »
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reactosguy

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Re: I'm moving back to Opera!
« Reply #29 on: 11 January 2010, 22:33 »
You're still this immature?

goddamn

Typical reply to Microsoftist evangelists.