Operating Systems > Linux and UNIX
Linux to Over take Apple on Desktop
Stryker:
probably late summer, early fall. i'm trying to figure out how to make $PATH recursive... i suppose that'd go in a different thread though.
psyjax:
Well, windows is a different story Im talking about what I consider to be the most well designed OS in the world, OSX. It is very reliable, consistently simple, and very modular.
The add/install in linux dosent work with all programms, but sucha think shouldent have a necessity in the first place. On the Mac dependancie issues never occur. Also, makeing a shortcut to "/" has little meaning to the common user. On the mac I don't need to know jack about commandline directory syntax, it's all visually organized. The GUI is true WYSIWYG.
RPMs are double clickable, but dependancies are not allways easely resolved. Often RPMs fail, and then you have to compile from source. This sux.
As far as using personal install etc. My only gripe with this, is that a new user may not like some of the pre-picked software. For example, Redhat favors OpenOffice.or and Mandrake KWrite(?), Each programm works diffrently, say the user dosent like OpenOffice or Mozilla as the default program.. Then what is he/or she to do?
She tries to find an alternative amongst litteraly hundreds, and then there is no guarentee that the installation of her new program will go smothly. Don't even tell me that apt-get is simple, because it does have a learning curve and the comman user doesnot want to muck about with a command line. Worse still, is if a user dosn't have apt and would like to install it, that is a hastle and a half! I hope that they will never have to mess with .conf or bash scripts.
So ya, it's confusing, and overwhelming to a new user. Indeed my mom could easely jump on redhat and send an email, brows a site, type a letter on a preconfigd installation, but should she ever want to configure things diffrently shes out of luck.
Some distros like Redhat 9 include minimal system configuration tools (graphical ones that is), Mandrake includes at least 4! How is a common joe gonna know were the fuck to go?
Im not bashing linux, I don't think it sux, I just think that it's structure as curently implimented is at odds with a simple desktop OS.
Im really excited about your project for a more logical linux tho! What's the distro calld? Can you download any? Is it Gobo?
EDIT: I also know that alot of my gripes are probably things that can be resolved with the software developers themselves. The problem is, that alot of them seem to expect you to have some mid-range knowledge of linux so sadly, again, they make things that arent as simple as they could be.
I think that if linux expands beyond the "geek" community, then perhapse it will grow simple out of necessity. But to start that expansion, they must make steps to simplicity as well. They have done this, and are still doing this.
Mandrake and redhat 9 are impresive, Redhat 9 in particular is lightyears ahead of Redhat 8. The jurney to a simple Desktop OS is not over yet tho.. So I still think it's not the best choice for mr and mrs joe blow.
[ July 05, 2003: Message edited by: psyjax: plain 'ol psyjax ]
Stryker:
i'll pick at your post in a little bit, i'm busy atm.
and i'm working on a utility that will make installing from source easy. (usually, if it's like most sourced up packages)
Stryker:
quote:Originally posted by psyjax: plain 'ol psyjax:
Im talking about what I consider to be the most well designed OS in the world, OSX.
--- End quote ---
you were talking about how linux was immature
quote:
The add/install in linux dosent work with all programms...
--- End quote ---
try removing mspaint with the add/remove programs in windows. or notepad... it cant be done. what doesn't the add/remove programs work well with? works fine for me.
quote:
...but sucha think shouldent have a necessity in the first place.
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i think it's necessary to be able to add and remove programs.
quote:
On the Mac dependancie issues never occur.
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can't argue with that.
quote:
Also, makeing a shortcut to "/" has little meaning to the common user.
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and on a mac it does? you are telling me that there are no shortcuts for programs? that a user has to navigate to them?
quote:
On the mac I don't need to know jack about commandline directory syntax, it's all visually organized.
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as it is with linux, perhaps you just dont like any of the desktop managers you've used.
quote:
The GUI is true WYSIWYG.
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something i'm not too familiar with. What are the benefits of this?
quote:
RPMs are double clickable, but dependancies are not allways easely resolved.
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install the rpms using synaptic
quote:
Often RPMs fail, and then you have to compile from source. This sux.
--- End quote ---
i haven't had rpms fail in a long time, not since i got apt-get. compiling from source doesn't suck. it takes about 3 commands to do. and i'm making a tool to make it easier.
quote:
As far as using personal install etc. My only gripe with this, is that a new user may not like some of the pre-picked software.
--- End quote ---
and everyone just loves wordpad in windows? no reason to go get a better word processor huh?
quote:
For example, Redhat favors OpenOffice.or and Mandrake KWrite(?), Each programm works diffrently, say the user dosent like OpenOffice or Mozilla as the default program.. Then what is he/or she to do?
--- End quote ---
if i used windows...
i dont like wordpad, i'll go buy a better word processor.
quote:
She tries to find an alternative amongst litteraly hundreds, and then there is no guarentee that the installation of her new program will go smothly.
--- End quote ---
that has nothing to do with the operating system, doesn't support "linux isn't mature" at all.
quote:
Don't even tell me that apt-get is simple, because it does have a learning curve and the comman user doesnot want to muck about with a command line.
[/QUOTE[
get synaptic
--- Quote ---Worse still, is if a user dosn't have apt and would like to install it, that is a hastle and a half!
--- End quote ---
it comes in 1 rpm, which i have never had failed dependencies with.
quote:
I hope that they will never have to mess with .conf or bash scripts.
--- End quote ---
most .conf stuff is for serious system settings and server settings... nothing a normal user will have to mess with. programs do tend to have preferences dialogs.
quote:
So ya, it's confusing, and overwhelming to a new user.
--- End quote ---
my mom never used a computer before, she is a new user. she started with linux, got it right away...
quote:
Indeed my mom could easely jump on redhat and send an email, brows a site, type a letter on a preconfigd installation...
--- End quote ---
so you agree, it's not hard.
quote:
...but should she ever want to configure things diffrently shes out of luck.
--- End quote ---
everything she would want to change she could easily... what can't she?
quote:
Some distros like Redhat 9 include minimal system configuration tools (graphical ones that is), Mandrake includes at least 4! How is a common joe gonna know were the fuck to go?
--- End quote ---
documentation comes with most distros.
quote:
Im not bashing linux...
--- End quote ---
perhaps, but it sure does sound like it.
quote:
...I don't think it sux, I just think that it's structure as curently implimented is at odds with a simple desktop OS.
--- End quote ---
ok. i think you are wrong.
quote:
Im really excited about your project for a more logical linux tho! What's the distro calld? Can you download any? Is it Gobo?
--- End quote ---
thanks. it's calyptos. a website is in development at http://calyptos.com. There will be 2 versions. workstation/personal and server. They installations will be different, obviously server will be more complex and have more options, while personal is basicly "click next". "Can you download any?" i dont understand that. it's not released yet, still in it's early stages. what the hell is Gobo??
quote:
EDIT: I also know that alot of my gripes are probably things that can be resolved with the software developers themselves. The problem is, that alot of them seem to expect you to have some mid-range knowledge of linux so sadly, again, they make things that arent as simple as they could be.
--- End quote ---
any suggestions for adjusting this are most welcome.
quote:
I think that if linux expands beyond the "geek" community, then perhapse it will grow simple out of necessity. But to start that expansion, they must make steps to simplicity as well. They have done this, and are still doing this.
--- End quote ---
I really dont think it needs too much more growing, it's very easy, user friendly, and complete. Very small adjustments are needed, wait until the next redhat release i'm sure. (or wait until mine, wish me luck)
quote:
Mandrake and redhat 9 are impresive, Redhat 9 in particular is lightyears ahead of Redhat 8. The jurney to a simple Desktop OS is not over yet tho.. So I still think it's not the best choice for mr and mrs joe blow.
--- End quote ---
again, i disagree. I had my mom read this and she laughed. most of the stuff she didn't understand... which is a good clue that it doesn't matter.
[ September 25, 2006: Message edited by: Stryker ]
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psyjax:
quote: you were talking about how linux was immature
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As a desktop platform. I was refering to windoze, that windoze is cryptic and illorganized is a point that I more than agree with.
quote: try removing mspaint with the add/remove programs in windows. or notepad... it cant be done. what doesn't the add/remove programs work well with? works fine for me.
--- End quote ---
Programms that you install independantly from source, or in odd directories are not necissarly picked up by it.
quote: i think it's necessary to be able to add and remove programs.
--- End quote ---
Belive it or not, an Add/Remove utility is not necessary on OSX, since everything is self contained. You drag an app to the trash it's gone. Any files the app may have used is kept in the system->library directory. That's it, no hunting around for obscure files, and no depndancy on a separete program to keep track of it for you. Its consistent, no hastle, allways easy, and 100% guaranteed to work.
quote: and on a mac it does? you are telling me that there are no shortcuts for programs? that a user has to navigate to them?
--- End quote ---
On the Mac, makeing an "Alias" as they are called is as simple as clicking on the application icon, and selecting make alias. Put said alias werever you want, anywere, at any time, and it ALLWAYS knows what it points to. Not only that, but you can move around whatver it is it points to to anywere on your hardrive and not only will that application work flawlessly, all of the aliases will too.
But aliases are not allways necisary, considering that programs are totaly self contained in their own folders, or icons. You can drag them to the desktop if you use them often, or you can put them anywere else on your hardrive for that matter, bury them six levels deep in a folder, they will still work, the aliases will still work, and nothing is disturbed.
Windoze dosen't even have this right yet.
quote:as it is with linux, perhaps you just dont like any of the desktop managers you've used.
--- End quote ---
I have used KDE, GNOME, WindowMaker, IceWM, and Enlightenment. And I beg to differ, you do need to know at least a little bit about how the files are named and organized in Linux to use any of the window managers.
I recal a case in KDE were I had to actually add a \zip folder under my usr\dev directory, and then add a few things to some .conf files to get it to recognize it. Same goes for my vfat partition. This occured in Redhat 8, but Mandrake 9 and Redhat 9 recognized both with no problem so kudos there
Yet, Im sure I will run into a similar situation down the line.
On a Mac, storage devices, are not kept in an obscure folder. They are universal system icons. and are represented as what they are. I don't need to make folders to representthem or shortcuts to them for that matter.
quote: something i'm not too familiar with. What are the benefits of this?
--- End quote ---
WYSIWYG, What you see is what you get.
Meaning that if I see an application icon, that icon IS the application, not some symbolic alias to a grupe of files scattered across my directory tree. I can move that icon around anywere I want, and it is not dependant on a dozen little files in it's directory, and it knows how to access whatever it needs anywere else in the system. If I see a hardrive, that IS the hardrive, not a folder witha funny name under dev.
That sort of thing, it liberates one from having to memorize and get your brains around abstractions. Makes things simple and imediatly understandable.
quote:install the rpms using synaptic
--- End quote ---
Never used it. Ill look into it thanks
quote:i haven't had rpms fail in a long time, not since i got apt-get. compiling from source doesn't suck. it takes about 3 commands to do. and i'm making a tool to make it easier.
--- End quote ---
Remember, teh command line makes joe blow run in the other direction. And usually it takes 3 commands, unless there is some sort of conflict, and then you have to pass some extra flags, or maybe even open some headerfiles and edit some macros. It can get harry. But a tool to make it easyer sounds fantastic!
Again Im not knocking any of this stuff, just pointing out that it's pretty rough around the edges, Joe Blow dosn't care if it works %90 percent of the time, if he has a hard time once, hes running the other way.
quote:and everyone just loves wordpad in windows? no reason to go get a better word processor huh?
--- End quote ---
heh. I use openOffice under windows and on my Mac, the TextEdit app is a fully fetured lightweight word processor. It's actually a pretty darn good program.
I just ment that the stuff in the personal install is pre-picked so you can never be sure if the stuff you get works to your likeing etc.
So it becomes hard for a newb to figure out what he wants in teh first place.
quote:that has nothing to do with the operating system, doesn't support "linux isn't mature" at all.
--- End quote ---
As far as I see it, an OS is only as good as the software for it. If teh variety of software does not meet the majorities needs or is to plentifull to sort thrugh the junky stuff, then it becomes overwhelming for the first time user.
quote: most .conf stuff is for serious system settings and server settings... nothing a normal user will have to mess with. programs do tend to have preferences dialogs.
--- End quote ---
I had to edit one when X11 unexpectedly keeld out.
...
Darn my girlfriend is on the phone :D
Ill be beack ;)
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