Miscellaneous > The Lounge
US/Iraq
Chooco:
i never thought of it that way. sort of strange how afgans hate the US more than Russia even though the US saved them from Russia.
Calum:
true, this is a forum where political discussion can happen without descending into namecalling, i would say, even though i was ready yesterday to agree with VoidMain that politics should stay off this board. i changed my mind. so long as the politics stay in one or two threads, then fine.
Also, I must post in reply to VoidMain and to others generally.
VoidMain, once more i hope i did not offend you. i agree with everything you said in your three posts since my last one, however i just think that any US action in foreign countries should be UN approved, unless actual hard copy offensive action has already been taken. the eleventh of september thing is such action, however it has yet to be proved that any particular country was at fault, and as you know, once the US air force had levelled a lot of Afghanistan (unfairly in my opinion, but i do not know much about the USAF, and i am guessing you know a bit more about it than me!), the US did admit that afghanistan itself was not the enemy.
I just think countries should give each other the benefit of the doubt while still being ready to act at any time, rather than blindly acting to make a show of it.
the prime minister of england is now coming out and saying war with iraq is required, even though most people here are of the same opinion i am, they don't want a war, think we should instead be keeping a close eye on iraq, and that the UN should be ready to take action at the drop of a hat.
our ptime minister however claims he will be able to produce documentary evidence, in the next two weeks, that iraq plans to wage war against us. we shall see.
voidmain:
Look, nobody wants a war (well, people like bin laden appear to like it but no sane person) but I don't forsee a world without them any time soon, one could certainly hope/dream. And yes I happen to know a lot about the USAF, especially since I served for 15 years with them. And no you didn't offend me at all. But we do seem to be miles apart on our perception of things and the truth probably lies somewhere in between.
Now there are some things that I think you are a little farther off than I. For instance "leveled most of Afghanistan", nope, not even close to being true. "Admiting that Afghanistan was not the enemy" makes it sounds like this came about after we went in to get bin laden and the Taliban. Well it was stated emphatically up front that Afghanistan was not the enemy. It was bin laden and al-quada.
Now normally I would agree with you about the "first strike" thing, except if that first strike would be delivered by terrorists using nuclear weapons. I do agree with you that we would need proof that the nuclear weapons exist (or close to being in existence) and that there is a real threat of them being deployed. Now this wouldn't be an issue if Saddam would not have kicked out the UN inspectors. The US and Russia have inspectors to keep tabs on each others nuclear arsenals.
But I do believe we need to see more proof (and the poles agree). And I believe before anything drastic happens we will have the proof. I believe both the U.S. and the U.K. (and other western countries) are currently in good hands and they are going to great pains to gain support for and to justify anything that they do.
Calum:
i agree, once more with you.
my inaccuracies there can be blamed entirely on the media (TV, radio and newspapers) in both Australia and britain, all that stuff you said was inaccurate is second, third, fourth hand reports i have got from those sources.
The media was quite clear in Australia in the month of Sept last year that the US was striking against Afghanistan (and also that it was a good idea! there were quite a few racist attacks on people of middle eastern origin reported around that time).
also, those media are still confusing the issue. i read in the london evening standard yesterday that iraq will allow any UN inspectors to go anywhere they choose so long as they provide evidence that those places contain nuclear development facilities. (note this is not reasonable suspicion, they say evidence)They also said iraq is hesitant to cooperate fully because it is pissed off about the sanctions since 1991, but then a couple of hours later, a speculator on Newsnight was saying that iraq will not allow any inspectors anywhere and this is why sanctions are still in place. who to believe?
also, re our premiers gathering support, i do think they are doing that, and doing it in the right way too, however i do not think we will get an unbiased view of the whole truth from something like a government, which by definition has too high an invested interest in the issues to remain objective.
KernelPanic:
quote:But I do believe we need to see more proof (and the poles agree). And I believe before anything drastic happens we will have the proof. I believe both the U.S. and the U.K. (and other western countries) are currently in good hands and they are going to great pains to gain support for and to justify anything that they do.
--- End quote ---
I'm sorry Voidman but the UK is not in good hands.
*Prepare for a UK politics rant*
Look at our public sevices:
Teachers are leaving due to poor pay, condiditons and stress due to ridiculous bureaucracy.
Firemen (and women) are onthe verge of national strike due to poor pay. These guys go into burnigng buildings everyday and use some very modern equipment. Give them a proffesional pay packet.
Our military spending is so high that things have to be bought just to use surplus money.
Our nurses and other health staff are treated like crap.
The states of our roads is unbelievable. I've only seen worse in America (whose roads are bad). Germany has perfect roads and they don't ewven pay road tax. In fact the average german spends less tax per month than us, full stop.
That is just part of the problem. Sorry for that off-topic rant but it really does annoy me. Problem is, it just gets accepted like it should happen!
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