Miscellaneous > The Lounge
Firearms debate (formerly Symantec Firewall blocks freedom)
Faust:
quote:By censoring guns, you are censoring hunting, a pasttime that many enjoy in this country, and have a right to do, regardless of your political beliefs.
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And you need a desert eagle for hunting right? In most countries people who say they need their guns for "hunting" cant get access to replica M16s. Easy access to guns sure helped the washington sniper hey?
quote:Even if you hate firearms, there are people who are legit for them. The police and public/private security officials would be screwed without them. Shoot or be shot. Bullet proof vests are like jello if you've got the right gun and ammunition (which, thank god, is illegal for public use). And if they're all you've got, good luck stopping a dangerous psycho from his killing spree.
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And exactly where did anyone say guns should be taken off police? You get what you need, and cops have a legitimate need for weaponry designed to kill people.
Yeah, you just said again how responsible you are with guns. Re read my post. Its not you I'm worried about.
quote:it is our second amendment right to bear arms. This right is being violated
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Just because its a law doesnt make it right.
insomnia:
quote:Originally posted by The Merciless Darth Jimmy James:
If someone busts into my place, the only way they'll get out is by dragging their legs out.
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...or shoot you before you can kill him.
If you're not armed, you can only lose money.
If you point a gun to a burglar you might end up dead.
lazygamer:
quote:Originally posted by flap:
If these pro-gun Americans think the right to own a firearm is such a fundamental one, why do they think it is that people in other countries that don't have such liberal gun laws never, ever complain that they don't have the same rights? In this country most people regard the American obsession with guns with amusement. Most people here can't conceive of wanting to own a firearm, but maybe that's because we don't need them because we never made them legal in the first place. In this country even the police aren't armed, because they don't need to be. Compare that to the US where "more people died from gunshot wounds in the last 2 years alone than the whole Vietnam War" (http://www.peace.ca/giftfeararticles.htm). Do you really think that's the mark of a civilised country?
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That's quite a broad statement you make. Alot probably do, or maybe they feel it's futile to complain, or maybe they don't understand the gun control issue enough. When they strengthened gun control laws in Canada, plenty of people complained.
quote:Originally posted by Flap:
You're missing the point. It isn't really a problem if people like you have a gun; presumably you only use it responsibly. The problem is that the mass availability of guns that your wild-west culture has produced allows criminals to easily get their hands on them. You may think it's "collective punishment" to stop law-abiding people from owning guns just because other people mis-use them, but there has to be a balance between individual rights and the overall good of society. The fact is that the gun culture in the US is completely out of control, and it engenders a type of violent crime that just isn't possible in other countries.
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Funny, the pro gun guys like to use UK as an example of how a lack of guns makes non-firearm related violent crimes more common!
Gun culture related to insane amounts of violent crime? Why the hell would you blame that before you blame America's racial or social issues?(not saying that this is the cause, just saying that it's a much more logical then gun culture) Also, there is probabilities, not everything has a good reason for being. It's possible that the US is just the unlucky country that has more violence than a first world country should.
quote:Originally posted by Laukev7:
Neither would handguns be if they were prohibited.[/QUOTE}
This is a decent argument I've heard before. Why aren't automatic weapons nearly as common as semi-automatics? Supposedly, it's because most black market guns aren't imported, but stolen from legal gun owners. Automatic weapons are alot more hassle to own(and highly expensive), so people are less inclined to bother.
However, a firearm is technology, and very common low level technology at that; It's hard to totally control technology. Auto weapons are prohibited but there is probably plenty of them in criminal hands, even if they pale in comparison to the amount of illegal semi-autos.
So if guns were totally banned, they would still keep popping up, just not as often.
--- Quote ---Originally posted by Flap:
So all the time you're at home you're within reach of your gun? If so, that almost doesn't sound stupid. And if you think guns are such a deterrent then why do you think burglary still actually ever happens in the US?
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There are different home defense situations, a gun may or may not help. Why does burglary still happen? This is because many people in the US do not own a gun, due to anti-gun messages and anti-gun laws in many states. Furthermore, a gun is not a gurantee that a burglary will not happen. A person can be robbed while not home for example.
You probably think America is one giant pro-gun land, from what I've read on the net you are VERY WRONG.
quote:Originally posted by Flap:
Good idea, genius. That's why the old american west was so peaceful. In fact that's why wars are so peaceful, because everybody has a gun, so naturally no-one dares to "fuck with" anyone else.
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The wild west was a frontier with a lack of law enforcement! If there were no guns everyone would have carried a knife, wouldn't have changed a thing. Besides, people had the guns to protect themself against the criminals. Of course the criminals had guns too, that's why the citizens needed guns as opposed to knives. Basically, blame the criminals, not the idea of bearing arms.
Your war comment is totally illogical. People are fighting, trying to KILL each other. Due to the lack of guns, they can use swords and arrows and kill each other just as effectively. Swords and arrows not good enough for you? How about our hands and feet! Solider knocks his foe out, then kills him by crushing his windpipe with his foot!
If there are reasons for gun control, using wars and the wild west as an example doesn't help the cause.
So to the gun control people: Does gun control really make you feel alot safer? Would you suddenly feel good about walking through your local hood, in a society where there have been harsh gun laws for years? Most people would not. How is gun control making you alot safer if your local hood is still unsafe?
I look at guns as details, not the big picture. Guns can create alot of new issues(like that maryland sniper incident, or columbine), but in the overall day to day murders and injuries, would they really have a major effect? If 4 thugs have guns and attack you, you are fucked. If 4 thugs have baseball bats and attack you, you are still fucked(some people might not be, but most would). In the vast majority of cases, the victim would be dead or hospitalized. How would gun control help here?
I think that even when criminals have guns, having a gun might save your life. Situations vary, although in many cases having a gun will not help. However, lacking a gun means that a person has even less chance for survival overall.
quote:...or shoot you before you can kill him.
If you're not armed, you can only lose money.
If you point a gun to a burglar you might end up dead.
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With some robberies a burglar can be crazed, so he might kill a person anyways. You bring up a good point, having a gun can get someone killed. For example, running out of ammo against a group of attackers. Or getting shot while you shoot your foe.
[ November 07, 2003: Message edited by: lazygamer ]
[ November 07, 2003: Message edited by: lazygamer ]
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flap:
quote:And exactly where did anyone say guns should be taken off police? You get what you need, and cops have a legitimate need for weaponry designed to kill people.
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Actually in the UK even the police (in the main) don't need guns.
quote:That's quite a broad statement you make. Alot probably do, or maybe they feel it's futile to complain, or maybe they don't understand the gun control issue enough.
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Believe me, there are all kinds of pressure groups in the UK (as in any other country) and none of them are campaigning for loosening of gun control laws. If they are then they're so small in number that they're not visible. Why would anyone (liberal or conservative) want to go from a situation in which shootings are rare and every one makes the national news, to one akin to the US where hundreds happen everyday and are accepted as commonplace?
quote:So to the gun control people: Does gun control really make you feel alot safer? Would you suddenly feel good about walking through your local hood, in a society where there have been harsh gun laws for years? Most people would not. How is gun control making you alot safer if your local hood is still unsafe?
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Yes, it does actually make me feel a lot safer. Even if my local "hood" is unsafe, it's still a lot safer than it would be with guns. If 4 thugs attack me and they have guns, as you say I'm fucked. There's absolutely no defence against a gun, not even having a gun myself. If they attack me and they have baseball bats, I can run away. It's as simple as that. The difference between firearms and knives or bats is that there's no effective defence against guns.
It's a lot easier to kill someone with a gun. A gun immediately affords a criminal a level of power that he simply wouldn't have with, say, a knife. You can't jack a car with a knife, and it's a lot more difficult (or impossible) to hold up a store or bank etc.
Laukev7:
I find that the firearms issue is a very interesting topic. It boils down to important philosophical issues like individual vs society freedom, preemption vs retaliation and self-justice vs court justice. I agree with flap that proliferation of firearms only increases criminality; it is simply absurd to believe that handing out more firearms for people to protect themselves will ever solve the problem it causes in the first place. This thread being no longer about censorship, I am going to rename it in consequence.
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