Miscellaneous > The Lounge
And you wonder why Linux is not Mainstream Like Windows is?
willysnout:
quote:Originally posted by VoidMain:
Linux was written by people just like you.
--- End quote ---
Not quite!
quote:A lot of software was written by people just like you who were frustrated that there was no software that would do exactly as they wanted, or it was too expensive. So they decided to do something about it, and wrote their own, and then shared the source code with everyone else so they had a chance to make their own improvements, for free, no charge, no questions asked. Personally, I think that people who are that generous are just plain cool, and I will support them in any way I can, and I won't make demands of them.
--- End quote ---
I can sympathize with your perspective, and in some ways I quite agree. Still, though, I'm willing to pay for something that works well and frees me to do the stuff that I really want to do. This should not brand me an "idiot."
quote:I don't know if you have tried Linux but I believe there are several distributions of Linux that are much easier to install than Windows. I also believe that they are just as easy to use as Windows. And I believe they all work much more reliably than Windows.
--- End quote ---
The following is a serious, good-faith question: Can you recommend the least painful way for a non-specialist like myself, who doesn't want to become a specialist but who just wants to "drive the car," to check this out?
I'll genuinely and sincerely thank you for a real answer to my question. I am interested. Maybe there's a book out there? I only want to know what I really need to know, or to put it differently, I want to start swimming in the shallow end of the pool.
All of this stuff might be second nature to you, but not to most people and that includes me. I have specialized knowledge in certain areas but not computers.
quote:I see the big issue right now is not ease of use, but off the shelf software such as games. There is no doubt that there are more games for Windows out there.
--- End quote ---
I don't care about games. I want an office suite that will be able to read documents and spreadsheets and powerpoints created in MS Office 2000 and Office 95. I'm not a "power user." Those documents are not complicated.
Linux needs to be able to run Quicken. I need a scheduling and synchronization program that will work with my Palm Pilot. I've got software like Black Ice firewall, McAfee Virus Scan, and Turbo Tax. Will Linux run these things?
quote:And Linux will run a small percentage of those Windows programs, it certainly wont run them all. And usually the Windows programs will not run as good as they do in Windows. But hey, they are Windows programs, not Linux programs. Windows can not run *anything other than* Windows programs. Now if all of the off the shelf application developers will sell a copy of their software written for Linux as well as for Windows I believe Windows will die quickly. It's a chicken/egg type of issue though. Developers will not develop for Linux because of the small percentage of installed desktops, yet it is difficult to increase the percentage of installed desktops without the applications. But I believe it is coming, not as fast as I would like, but it's coming.
--- End quote ---
Maybe given my level of involvement, it's best for me to wait a couple years. That's my inclination given the situation you describe.
quote:I will correct you. Neither Sun nor Oracle are Linux "leaders". In fact GNU/Linux is actually a direct threat to Sun's business (the Solaris operating system). Now what they both have realized is that if they want to survive they are going to have to jump on the Linux band wagon.
No, RedHat is not from Silicon Valley. They are from Raleigh, North Carolina. In fact they really don't have much to do with the development of GNU/Linux, but they have a nice way of tying all of the pieces together (GNU software, Linux kernel, the KDE software, and much more open source software) into an easy to install and use operating system.
They also provide support which is primarily what you are paying for when you purchase the boxed set of RedHat (along with manuals). RedHat also makes revenue from training and certification programs. You have always been able to download the CD images from RedHat for free if you wish. Also, RedHat was originally (and still is) put together more with servers in mind. But I (and many others) find it to be a great desktop operating system. In fact I just read where RedHat may now be changing that thinking (or enhancing it) to take desktop systems more seriously.
Having said that, RedHat could close up shop tomorrow for any reason and the switch to another Linux distribution would be fairly painless. I find comfort in that. Now if Microsoft were to close up shop tomorrow there would be many who have built their businesses around Microsoft software in big trouble. I don't think either will happen any time real soon but you never know.
--- End quote ---
Thanks for the information. But what about this "Star Office" that I've read is the best Linux office suite? Isn't that somehow tied into Sun or Oracle? The other thing I wonder is the privacy and spybot stuff. I'm convinced that Microsoft is not to be trusted in the least, but what about the hackability of my computer if I switch over to Linux, and being monitored, etc.?
I'm sure I live under an illusion right now, and I'm willing to listen to exactly how and why I am. But for the moment, I've got a personal firewall, a virus scan program and a couple different programs (Windows Washer and a shareware thing) that wipe out cookies and other trackers, plus one that searches and ddestroys "spybots."
In the Linux world, are there similar programs that go out and kill all this crap that gets deposited on your computer? Ever since I got these firewalls and "washer" programs, I've been just stunned at how much "detrius" a computer collects after being on the Web for, oh, an hour.
willysnout:
quote:Originally posted by bazoukas:
if your scanner wont export your Image to PowerPoint and you cant simply take the fucking time to say "HMMMMMMMMMM what if I go via PowerPoint and Insert the scanned image using PowerPoint? After All my boss has assinged to me to do that".
OR when you tell him that "Sir your CDROM has no Conflicts as I showed you. There is no Exlemation Mark on Device Manager. XP sees the CDPLAYER but it cant read shit. That means that the CDPLAYER is messed up." Yet he is MOST SURE that is a Software conflict: I bet my life a software is causing that". And you tell them "sir there is no way in Hell an Application did that. The driver might have been corrupted but as you see we reinstalled it"
--- End quote ---
What on earth are you talking about?
quote:And trust me. If i can do it. EVERYONE can figure out the simple shit. I was a psych major before this (and a Fucking good one at that)
--- End quote ---
So what sub-set of psych did you major in? Put-Downs 101?
willysnout:
quote:Originally posted by Calum:
it still seems as if you expect the free software crowd to give the support a company can give. It won't and has no interest in doing so. the free software foundation is a charity, and the many open source developers are hobbyists. However there are many companies, like redhat, mandrake, suse and so on, who will give you any and all the support you need if you buy a licence from them.
--- End quote ---
I am not a free-rider, and am quite willing to pay for products. I'd really like to see an alternative to Microsoft, which I regard as increasingly anti-consumer. My comments about "the Linux crowd" have been aimed at the "ubertech" mentality that brands non-specialists as idiots.
I think that's got to change. I have specialized knowledge in certain areas. I *sell* this knowledge for a living. And when I sell it, I assure you that I don't do so with arrogance, intended or otherwise. Arrogance is the big danger with specialists.
quote:The main hurdle when it comes to 'ease of use' is the old chestnut of 'sticking to what you know'. To be frank, if you know how to use windows (or MacOS or whatever) and you now want to use a totally new system, you will have to learn how to do so. It is unrealistic to expect a system to behave in exactly the same way as a different system just to stop people having to learn how to use it. Especially since linux has shitloads more features and abilities than windows which would never be used if it had a windows clone interface.
--- End quote ---
I hear you. I guess what I'm saying is that, in the quest to run a 3-1/2 minute mile, I need to be sure I can walk to the grocery store. Windows will do that. In my own case, I doubt I'll get too involved with Linux until I know it can do the stuff I am doing now, just as easily and reliably as Windows does.
I know I sound like the MS salesman, but I'm not. All I'm saying is that if I want to write a letter and print it, Windows and Office will do that. I can send e-mails easily with Outlook. I manage my checkbook with Quicken and my taxes with Turbo Tax. I've got a nice little shareware program that displays photos. I've got Virus Scan, Black Ice Defender, Windows Washer and some other stuff for security.
Those are "basics." If that's not available and easily used in Linux, then I won't switch. Which I realize is no skin off your ass, but since this is a forum where people give their views I figured my thought process might be of interest. Most people here seem to have a level of knowledge that's more specialized than mine. What I'm trying to do is inject the perspective of a more typical user.
voidmain:
quote:Originally posted by willysnout:
I am not a free-rider, and am quite willing to pay for products. I'd really like to see an alternative to Microsoft, which I regard as increasingly anti-consumer. My comments about "the Linux crowd" have been aimed at the "ubertech" mentality that brands non-specialists as idiots.
I think that's got to change. I have specialized knowledge in certain areas. I *sell* this knowledge for a living. And when I sell it, I assure you that I don't do so with arrogance, intended or otherwise. Arrogance is the big danger with specialists.
--- End quote ---
Certainly if you are "selling" your knowlege you have to treat the customer with respect if you intend to sell anything. I think you are seeing the few 12 year old "wanna-be Linux gurus because they think it is cool" kids and then believing all Linux lovers/users/programmers are like that. Well, you have those rotten apples on both sides of the fence. Those 12 year olds are barely out of diapers, let alone any sort of Linux expert (no offense intended to all you 12 year old "wanna-be Linux gurus because they think it is cool" types).
If you have everything you need and you are happy with it then I would suggest that you stick with what you have (seems like we've come to this conclusion about a month ago). But if you are interested in checking Linux out and are worried about screwing something up on the install I would suggest getting a copy of that "DemoLinux" CD that some have been talking about here. I personally have never heard of it or have ever tried it but it sounds like you don't have to install anything. You just boot it and run it directly from CD and it will not change anything on your hard drive. I'm sure it will not run as fast and there will be several limitations compared to a fully installed Linux distribution but it will give you taste of what you would be up against.
For DemoLinux see: http://www.demolinux.org/
quote:
I hear you. I guess what I'm saying is that, in the quest to run a 3-1/2 minute mile, I need to be sure I can walk to the grocery store. Windows will do that. In my own case, I doubt I'll get too involved with Linux until I know it can do the stuff I am doing now, just as easily and reliably as Windows does.
--- End quote ---
Again, if what you have works for you, stick with it. If you want to try out Linux without the hassle look for one of those DemoLinux CDs. I believe SuSe has a Live Eval CD that you can download and boot/run from CD as well, you might want to check that out since is it a popular distribution (anyone have any experience or suggestions on a live eval "run from CD" Linux distro?).
quote:
I know I sound like the MS salesman, but I'm not. All I'm saying is that if I want to write a letter and print it, Windows and Office will do that. I can send e-mails easily with Outlook. I manage my checkbook with Quicken and my taxes with Turbo Tax. I've got a nice little shareware program that displays photos. I've got Virus Scan, Black Ice Defender, Windows Washer and some other stuff for security.
Those are "basics." If that's not available and easily used in Linux, then I won't switch. Which I realize is no skin off your ass, but since this is a forum where people give their views I figured my thought process might be of interest. Most people here seem to have a level of knowledge that's more specialized than mine. What I'm trying to do is inject the perspective of a more typical user.
--- End quote ---
There are several Office suites that can do what you want (don't know if they would be up to your specifications but they work for most of us). I used to use Quicken, there is GNUCash that comes with Linux which is similar. I use "Tax Cut" for taxes, however it is one of the two programs that I boot up Windows for (it may work under Wine, I've never tried it). Fortunately I only have to use it once a year. Linux comes with it's own firewall software. You don't need virus software on Linux. In fact all the security tools you really need come with all Linux distributions that I am aware of.
So as you can see, even "I" am not 100% Microsoft free. There are a couple of applications that I use that the software vendors have not ported to Linux. But those two applications are not written by Microsoft and it is not the fault of Linux that these two companies have not written a version for Linux. Actually with TaxCut I still do not have to reboot my computer into Windows to run it. I use a piece of software called "VMware" that allows me to run a copy of Windows "inside" of Linux, and thus run the application I need to run without having to get out of Linux.
But for 99.9% of the things I use a computer for I find that Linux does a far better job. I still need Windows for that 0.1%, hopefully that will change soon. And I certainly don't want to have to purchase Windows XP just to run the newer version of TaxCut. I guess I would go back to paper filing if it came to that. Now, that's me. Your situation might be different. You might try the DemoLinux and think it's not for you. That's ok too. Use what works for you. I certainly would not want to suggest you go out and install Mandrake, or RedHat, or SuSe, then have you run into all sorts of trouble and get all upset and come back and start jumping all over my case. I'm not making any profit off of any suggestion or from any Linux distribution so why be subjected to that?
Also, Sun bought out a company called "Star Division" who originally wrote the office suite "StarOffice". StarOffice is a very nice office suite and it is *very* much like Microsoft Office and is very compatible with it (and many formats from other office suites). Now, Sun has released the source code from StarOffice for the open source project OpenOffice.org. This really doesn't have much to do with GNU/Linux other than you can get a version of the office suite compiled for Linux. You can also get a Windows version.
Even if you decide not to use Linux I would suggest that you download the Windows version of OpenOffice from http://www.openoffice.org/ and give it a shot. I think you will be pleasently surprised. It will likely do everything that you use Microsoft Office for and with very little learning curve. You can download it for no charge or I believe you can even order a copy on CD if you don't want to download it. And of course you can buy "StarOffice" from http://www.sun.com/ for a fraction of the cost of Microsoft Office and get documentation and support from Sun, and a couple of proprietary/licensed features that are not included with "OpenOffice".
There are several of us who find that Linux does work better for us and we are here to help others who have a totally open mind and are willing to give it a shot, even if it means frustration in the beginning because it is new/different than what they are used to. So like Microsoft's EULA, I certainly won't "guarantee" anything. But what can it hurt giving it an honest try?
[ August 06, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]
pkd_lives:
Willysnout:
You have many questions, many of them answered in this forum time and again. Search around and you will probably find what you need. However some things to start you off down the road.
First off, and without meaning to piss you off, I don't give a rats for anyone not prepared to open their mind and make an effort. Anyone that tied up in themselves is a waste of space, no matter what subject they may specialise in. Now hopefully that has not pissed you off, you see that statement for what it is.
I suggest a little surfing. The office suite you are talking about is Staroffice, and it was purchased by Sun and is now being sold as a viable contender to M$ office. Here is the point. There are many viable contenders to M$ office, including Lotus and Corel, their problem is that .Doc is a proprietary format to M$ and as such they have to reverse engineer the document to convert it, as M$ refuse to publish this format. However openoffice have done a good job, and that was what was sold to Sun. So check out www.openoffice.org Try the package out and see what you think, it's free, it's also NOT staroffice, as Openoffice is still under further development. I like staroffice.
Yes you do pick up detritus surfing, and most of it is from IE. Change your browser, this will make an effect that should please you. There are issues with the different browsers, but you can report your bug to the browser makers, and they will take active steps to cure it, although sometimes it's down to the fact that many websites write to M$ code practice, and not to the world wide web standards.mozilla
opera
I recently converted from Windows, still am slowly, but I am at the stage where my next comp will be 100% Linux compatable, and any software manufacturer that refuses to produce for it will not get my business, and tough on them. I find it far more stable, far more user friendly, it's a different way of thinking, that's all. As for virus and firewall issues, yes there are such products, but they are minor requirements, Linux is more secure by default of it's structure at the basic level. Yes you do need more knowledge, you have to understand what happens in a firewall to configure it properly, otherwise someone else is in control of your system, and you HAVE to trust them, but this is true of windows, it's just that people don't think that way, Linux does not let you off the hook because you're ignorant. You wouldn't walk out on a rainy day without protection, you need to learn to use an umberella, likewise with surfing the net, it seems tricky at first, but you soon realise you were letting your fears get in the way.
My suggestion to you is this. There are alternatives to EVERYTHING M$ make. Try them instead. Send e-mail to Quicken asking for Linux versions. Or get a Mac, Quicken write their software for them. If you really are that scared of Linux use Mac, whilst I have issue with them, they do make a quality product that does successfully compete.
It's down to you, we here hate M$, they have stiffled computer development into a backroad, as we see it, and they have committed attrocities along the way including piracy.
Secondly I believe in open source, I believe no company has the right to release closed source code, I believe that it is against my human rights to freedom, I believe it breaks the American constitution, and I have no way of proving they have never stolen code I may have written.
Maybe this helps.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version