Miscellaneous > The Lounge
Support the Troops, dammit!!
Calum:
ecsyle, you did well to pick up on that point.
i didn't expect anybody to notice i had said that since often my comments are protrayed by others as blindly anti american.
your country has one of the best democratic setups ever and the reason it doesn't work for you is that so many of the US' citizens are jaded. if they bothered to vote and more importantly to stand for election then maybe they'd get a better administration.
it is in the corporate interest to keep the citizens jaded however. they learnt their lesson when they almost lost control of it all in the late sixties and early seventies.
and one more thing i should say.
anti war marches are pro-soldiers, not anti-soldiers. if we end war, the soldiers will not be killed and mutilated.
simple, but true. those soldiers who disagree with anti war protestors are effectively saying they would prefer to have their limbs and life removed from them at random than have somebody campaign for their right to live a long and unmutilated life.
Stryker:
Calum, I have to say on this subject I disagree with you. You do make some valid points. But have you tried looking at it from our point of view? I don't want there to be a war, but if there's no other way then I say go for it. We've tried time and time again to resolve this peacefully. We caught him lying and sneaking around weapons. How can we trust that he doesn't have nukes? Saddam is one crazy son of a bitch, I'm sure most would agree. Just killing him wouldn't help because he's corrupted so many other people i'm sure.
Saddam would have to be a lunatic (hey, he is) to attack countries just because there's a war between the US and him. It's wrong to blame his post-war actions (pending his survival) on America just because they had a fight. War is necessary sometimes, how the hell could you argue otherwise? Think back to the american revolution. Would the US be there own country if they just kept asking britain over and over again? They tried that for a long while, so there was a war and they one. You say there is never a use for war, but if the iraqi citizens joined together to take out saddam there'd be a civil war. And you seem to promote that idea. Maybe it's because it doesn't involve you and you aren't at any risk.
i'm going to stop now... I'm sure I've said a few things to make me stupid, but I'm not looking back. the US shouldn't take the risk, there's no peacefull resolution.
zoolooo:
quote:Originally posted by Stryker:
How can we trust that he doesn't have nukes?
--- End quote ---
How do you know I haven't got nukes? How do I know you haven't got nukes? You can't test nukes secretly you know - where is the evidence?
We know all about his weapons programme because the West built it for him. When we stopped suppling him with the materials the programme stopped.
quote:Think back to the american revolution. Would the US be there own country if they just kept asking britain over and over again?
--- End quote ---
Yes. The vote agaist the colony (USA) was carried by one. Britain was sympathetic to the Americans, unfortunately the mad German King didn't understand that the British (For that is what the Americans were) cut King's heads off when they don't get their own way.
America's demands/requests were in fact very likely to be granted if the Monarch had not been so stupid and blown the gaff.
On the original point: I don't see how sending young men and women off to a pointless death is supporting them?
It's good for business I suppose.
zooloo
[ March 10, 2003: Message edited by: zoolooo ]
Stryker:
quote:Originally posted by zoolooo:
On the original point: I don't see how sending young men and women off to a pointless death is supporting them?
--- End quote ---
Don't sign up, don't go in the army reserves. it's not pointless death. there may be death, that's their choice. but it's not pointless. you tell me, other than giving more time and more time, a resolution. you come up with a way to solve this, one that hasn't been excused already. present it to the proper authorities. You do what you can to make this the way you want. I see all these people out there "war is bad, no war" but none of them do anything to support any peacfull resolution. I myself can't think of one we haven't already tried. If you do think of one, do something about it.
Pissed_Macman:
I'll try to pick some of the main points to respond to since I have limited time and a limited attention span.
quote:You decide to get into the army, so you have to face the consequences. The army isn't a fucking chess-club.
--- End quote ---
Actually a lot of people join the army for financial/educational/career reasons. I'm not saying it wasn't totally up to them, but none of them probably foresaw this.
quote:If Saddam was such an evil person towards his people he'd be gone already. The Iraqi civilians have access to AK47's and they could easily organize a guerrilla war against Saddam. And don't start that Saddam gassed his own people bullshit with me. He gassed the Kurds, and Saddam is a racist anti-kurd. Those are not his own people. We can discuss the Freedom of Kurdistan(which I fully support, but America's Ally, Turkey, seems to be not so supportive to it) but that is an entirely different subject.
--- End quote ---
They could easily organize a guerrilla war? I don't think so. The Iraqis have been completely brainwashed. Saddam has loyal followers everywhere, not to mention all of his general buddies and other high-ranking officials. It would be very difficult to organize a resistence, even if they wanted to. I'm not sure if Saddam gassed his own people or not, but they're still suffering. How would you like to go to an election where the two options are yes and no, then if you vote no you get dragged off at night? How would you like to live in a place where debates such as this one are illegal, where everything but your thoughts are controlled? Oh, okay! Saddam gassed the Kurds instead of his own people! That's much better! Wow I see your point now. Saddam is actually a saint for gassing the kurds and not his own people.
quote:"Some of them have turned into anti-troop protests, however."
have they? no they haven't. only paranoid freakout cases who are the result of the army's disgusting training regime would think so.
--- End quote ---
Umm actually, at least in my area, the troops have become the source of the protesters anger a lot of the time. I know of one guy who got spit on while he was just walking through Gig Harbor. GIG HARBOR OF ALL PLACES!!!
quote:"(the whole war with Saddam thing is a whole other issue)"
i strongly disagree. war sucks. THE END. there is no 'whole other issue'. it is war. war sucks. get it?
--- End quote ---
A bit of a misunderstanding here. I simply meant that I was talking about the troops, not the subject of "should we attack iraq?" Sorry, it was kind of unclear.
quote:it's their job. none of them are conscripts. they chose it. life's not a bowl of fucking cherries, people do a job. if they weren't prepared for the hazards of the job then they should have got a nice desk job or applied for a position at their local KFC.
--- End quote ---
There are tons of desk jobs in the army, as well as cooks. As i said before, people usually don't join the army because they want to fight, they do it for money/education/careers.
quote:they might well be indeed, it's harsh country, oh wait, you're talking about the americans? sorry, i thought you meant the iraqi citizens. LISTEN TO YOURSELF! if those conditions are so unbearable and inhumane then how come people have been living there nomadically for thousands of years? if your homegrown US marines (trained for anything) can't fucking hack it for a month then how the fuck have people managed to survive their childhoods and the rest of their life there no problem at all? hmm?
add to this the fact that the US soldiers have more food, better clothes, better fucking everything than anybody else out there and your comments are a disgusting insult to the entire rest of the planet's population, in much the same way as many 'innocent' yankee statements are.
--- End quote ---
I'm not saying they're dying, I'm saying it's just damned uncomfortable to be living in that kind of place for four months when you're from Alabama or something. Day after day of combat readiness routines, twenty second showers, living in tents. The Iraqis and other Middle Easterns have lived there for millenia. They also have houses and air conditioning. Innocent yankee statements? :confused:
quote:why, fuckass? i disagree with everything that the american flag stands for and i will continue to protest war until i am killed by a revenge attack that would not have happened if the US had not gone to war.
--- End quote ---
Actually, fuckass, I was talking to Americans when I said that. I don't expect you to understand what the American flag stands for anyway.
quote:fuck you. who said you americans know best? the world would be better off without the active USA (there are a large number of americans, probably the majority, who i have no problem with, but they for some reason allow the lunatics to run their country for them). a lot of US citizens have said that the US should stay at home and let other countries sort their own problems out and i say that's the cleverest thing an american has said about foreign intervention in years.
--- End quote ---
Okay, we'll just close our borders and let all the other countries sort out all their problems with nukes, gas, and whatever other horrors those "children" can unleash on each other. I mean, it's not as if world events actually EFFECT the US! Haha that would be silly!! Well, after the UK is a big crater (which would probably be an improvement) because us yankees took that advice and completely ignored the rest of the world, you'll most likely think differently! I mean, what the Allies did during WWII was complete hogwash right? Sharing resources?? Fighting side-by-side?? Complete nonsense!!
quote:i do.
NO war is EVER just. there is ALWAYS a better way to fix something than to go to war. Take the iraq situation. the best solution would be to assasinate saddam. don't tell me there has not been an opportunity to do so in the last 12 years, why has it not been done? oil and international politics, not to mention money.
EVERY war EVER has been called 'just' by somebody and 'unjust' by somebody else. NO war is EVER just and anybody who thinks there is such a thing as a just war needs a bullet.
--- End quote ---
Point taken, but there's always a different point of view. I like cheese. To me cheese is just. Someone else doesn't like cheese. To them cheese is unjust, right? But if you liked cheese you'd still say "Yum! Cheese is good!" not "Well I like cheese, but that guy doesn't, so I guess I'll just keep quiet about the cheese." No! That's now how things work! If we attack, it will be unjust to Saddam, but to all the people he's causing to suffer it will definitely be a just war for them. So all of Iraq and the surrounding countries' citizens deserve to be shot is what you're saying?
You think the best way to handle this is to assassinate Saddam? Would that be just to you if they assassinated Saddam, Calum? Isn't that a form of war? So I guess your suicidal then, huh?
And besides, if we take out Saddam and only Saddam some other dumbass will definitely come in to replace him. We have to change Iraq for good.
quote:arrogant fuck, how about you let people who give a shit about their own future decide? in fact how about you stop your fucking country deciding the future of all the other countries on the planet, hmm?
--- End quote ---
You don't think that being the last super power gives us some sort of responsibility? We've been pretty goddamned nice to everyone, I say. Who decides that we are in charge? Who decides that the teacher is in charge of a class? Who decides anything? That's just the way it is. My ancestors didn't say, "Hey everyone, let's become the most powerful nation in the world so we can control everyone else's asses in two hundred years! That would be sweey!" No, this is just the way things turned out. If we wanted to we could just sit back and let everyone else settle their problems any way they want? If we had done that we would have been destroyed during the world wars. We don't just intervene to control everyone else's asses, we intervene because our country is effected as well (not to mention the fact that we are compassionate for other people. well, most of us are anyway).
quote:why should we not get into that? that's the only thing i can agree on from what you have said so far! in fact you pro-war fascists have only one good thing to say and that's 'saddam needs to be removed from power' - yes he does, but you seem to make this idiotic leap in 'logic' that leads you to conclude that it's a good idea to just have a war. 'oh yes a war, good idea, that'll sort it out' have you yanks never heard of "thinking"? US bombing campaigns acheive very little, we learn from history, except civilian casualties and property damage and in this war, that's the thing we should be trying to avoid the most. iraq has a population we are supposedly trying to save from saddam, not kill when he uses them as a human shield. and iraq is also filled with unique historical sites which should not be destroyed (but which saddam has already begun to destroy himself). THINK before you send your troops in to make another fuckup like you did in viet nam.
--- End quote ---
Again, I merely meant that I was talking about the troops instead of the whole war on Iraq debate. I whole-heartedly agree that Saddam needs to go. If I'd lived back in the late sixties then I probably would have been a hippy because that war was a fucking disaster. We had no real objective then, other then to go in and take over. This time we have a clear objective: Saddam and all the other asshats that are going to take over. No, our track record for taking care of these types isn't good (Noreaga and Castro comes to mind) but we've also learned from these mistakes (yes, mistakes that should never have been made). We're not blindly agreeing with Bush in any way, in fact I'm anti-Bush, and if at all possible I'd rather see almost anything but war. But there are worse things than war.
quote:or you could go on the next anti war march as i plan to do, like i was on the last one.
i am not a pacifist though. i will stand up for the notion that all pro-war scumbags should be killed violently. live by the sword, die by it. there's too many people in this world and the violent ones should probably be the first to go.
--- End quote ---
You have no compassion for these people at all? I find that very hard to believe. I'm not asking you to speak up and be a major supporter or anything, just sign the thank you note. It takes two seconds, it's easy.
quote:the reason we allow these things to take place in our country is that we are not big tabacco, or oil, or pepsico, or microsoft, or whatever company has the money to fill the politicians pockets with law buying/changing money. This country has forgoten its roots. i am embarrassed to say im american most of the time, especially when i turn on the tv to see that the big news of the day is some celebrity getting arrested for some stupid shit, or the media having a fucking field day with "countdown iraq" along with patriotic saturated commercials to sell me a car because its "american". fuckin look at what is "popular" now. the music, movies, books. most (i think 97% of it) of it is complete shit that some corporation tells me is the newest, greatest thing since last years newest greatest thing. there is rarely any actual CONTENT or SUBSTANCE to anything anymore and it drives me mad. we are a nation of zombies being led by money/power hungry bastards. we could probably do something about it, and we sure talk about it alot, but look at every windroid that comes here, or you have talked to someplace else. it is like that with EVERYTHING in this country. Corp says its good, so everyone buys it. noone thinks for themselves anymore. so actually getting people to stand up and make a difference would be dificult to say the least. not impossible mind you, nothing is impossible, just dificult.
--- End quote ---
I whole-heartedly agree.
quote:How do you know I haven't got nukes? How do I know you haven't got nukes? You can't test nukes secretly you know - where is the evidence?
--- End quote ---
Have you been blatently and obviously lying and hiding things from the UN? I certainly hope not. But Iraq has.
quote:Yes. The vote agaist the colony (USA) was carried by one. Britain was sympathetic to the Americans, unfortunately the mad German King didn't understand that the British (For that is what the Americans were) cut King's heads off when they don't get their own way.
America's demands/requests were in fact very likely to be granted if the Monarch had not been so stupid and blown the gaff.
On the original point: I don't see how sending young men and women off to a pointless death is supporting them?
It's good for business I suppose.
--- End quote ---
C'mon, you know exactly what he means. The American colonies were being oppressed. They really had no choice but to fight. How ironic that the free, peaceful world we know today was borne from war.
My general statement to all of you who protest the troops and the war: there are things that are a hell of a lot worse than war. Not many, but there are. Like in business, you have to spend money to make money. Well you also have to make war sometimes to prevent war. It's the truth and I don't see how that can be denied.
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