Miscellaneous > The Lounge
Political views (not another war thread)
flap:
Well I do happen to be English, but as I've said that means nothing to me. When I put UK in my profile I'm just indicating my geographical location. But that's not really an innate difference between the cultures. And I really still don't understand what exactly you mean by culture, or how, for example, the French government ruling our country would have any effect whatsoever on the average citizen's day to day life.
The cultural characteristics of a society aren't determined by the body that governs them. I fail to see how a Scot's life would culturally be any different under a Scottish government.
zoolooo:
The use of UK is more from habit. If in offical forms we state natioality as English it is always corrected [sic] to British.
If there are cultural differences between peoples how/why do you decide where to draw the line on the map?
If you want an independent Scotland, what about Kent, Mercia, Anglia, etc?
I have sympathy with the objection to English dominance but I am not comfortable with breaking up in to smaller parochial states.
Indeed the sooner we think of ourselves as citizens of the world the better. How ever well intended, nationalism is divisive and poisonous. (Patriotism is nationalism in polite company.)
For what it's worth my paternal line is from Aberdeen.
zooloo
Calum:
quote:Originally posted by flap:
But that's not really an innate difference between the cultures.
--- End quote ---
i said it wasn't didn't i? that is one of thousands of little differences that go to make up a different culture! that's what a culture is! while it may make no difference to you whether you are english and you put UK as your location, does not matter, the truth is that very few, if any scottish people would feel that way, so in this way, you are more english than they are, and they are more scottish than you, that's just the way it goes.
quote:And I really still don't understand what exactly you mean by culture, or how, for example, the French government ruling our country would have any effect whatsoever on the average citizen's day to day life.
--- End quote ---
i knew you wouldn't. it's just a matter of the fact that you and i have different perspectives and different priorities, that in itself could be a cultural difference for all i know, but in my opinion the english and french are very culturally different in a lot of ways, so if the french started running england, they would administrate it in a totally different way from how the english have been doing it, and a lot of english people would make a lot of fuss about it i think, not that that's relevant.
quote:The cultural characteristics of a society aren't determined by the body that governs them. I fail to see how a Scot's life would culturally be any different under a Scottish government.
--- End quote ---
the english government is repressive, whether it tries to be or not. if the government of one culture rules the people of another culture, it will result in oppression and resentment however well the oppressors think they are managing it. every country in the british empire felt this resentment towards england, whether the english knew about it or not, and the reason is pure and simple: england ran all those countries as if they were all carbon copies of england. they still run scotland this way. it might work functionally but it goes against people's cultural grains. the english ran india like a hot england with elephants, they ran australia like a huge hot england with lots of dangerous wildlife, and some black people who they conveniently classed as non-humans for the purpose of making their english laws apply more easily to the new environment, and not having to acknowledge the existing laws in australia.
this is destructive and oppressive, and all they have done is treat everywhere like it is england! is that all? yes, that's all and it has caused massive negativity for generations. many aboriginal people do not know the whereabouts of their families, or live in squalour because of the english invasion of australia, the simple problem is that aboriginal australians often cannot integrate into an english society as well as the descendants of the english settlers can, for cultural reasons. the problem is not so bad in scotland where we have had longer to integrate, we were not so different in the first place, and we have had a few hundred years to watch how the english have grown into such a unified nation, and get used to the psychology behind it, but it's still cultural mismanagement in my opinion.
i know we have reached an impasse, so i won't go on.
and zooloo, currently scotland can become independent from england legally if a political party wants to give it independence, but only if that political party has a clear 50% majority of westminster seats in scotland, in real terms this means that in a UK general election, 36 seats must be won by a party in scotland, and then that party can successfully move for independence. currently labour are the only ones who have this majority, english labour that is, the ones with the english red rose as their logo. the scottish nationalists are the only party who promise that if they get 36 seats, then scotland will become independent within the year. currently they have about 3 or 4 because no bugger trusts them, but i think they have a large enough share of the votes that they should have about 12 seats. for those of you not familiar with our medieval voting system here in the 'united' kingdom, the more spread out a party's voters are, the less seats that party wins pervote, basically, enabling bigger parties, who have strong support in particular geographical areas to maintain an unjustified dominance in parliament.
as for being 'british' being a matter of convenience, to me it is a matter of insult. i put scottish on my passport application and they still give me a british passport. had i been french, my passport would say so, but i am anonymised due to my colonial status.
as for places such as wales, cornwall et c getting their independence, if they want it, they should try and get a legal mandate for it. as it stands they will not be able to go independent unless their populations believe this is best. with areas like cornwall and wales, i have doubts that this would ever be the case, but should it turn out that it is the case, good luck to them i say.
it's something to think about though that virtually every part of 'britain' wants to get independence from england.
[ March 25, 2003: Message edited by: Calum: crusader for justice & peace ]
flap:
I'm sorry but this all seems completely vague to me. Can you give me one example of a way in which having an English government rather than a Scottish one is harming you? Or rather any benefit you would see from independence? I'm looking for cultural as opposed to economic benefits. It's just that I frequently hear this "culture" argument from people when they're talking about the independence of their nation and I've yet to hear one single concrete example of what the hell it is they're talking about.
Calum:
well again, it's a whole slew of little things that really add up. i will give one example, but it will seem petty to you i am sure, remember this is just one small thing amongst an ocean of small things that make up a bigger picture:
in england, if you conduct a survey, the majority of people will say they thing water should be metered, ie that water should be paid for by the ounce (or gallon, whatever), in scotland if you conduct a survey of the same nature, you will find that 93% of people believe water should be paid for on a flat rate basis, ie everybody gets water, everybody pays the same. it is an intrinsic difference in the way each nation thinks. i have heard it said that in england there is no longer any class system. bullshit. i live here. there is one. the english people (in the south anyway) love to perpetuate the class structure, if only in their minds. it's what made britain great to them. in scotland there is no class structure. perhaps that is hard to believe, but it is true. some scots are risher than others, some are more stuck up, but deep down, none of them thinks they are any "better" than any other person (well, my earlier disclaimer about absolute statements comes into play here, but you see what i am getting at).
sorry, i have gone vague again. i am not the best person to talk about this as i don't really want to open up a can of worms.
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