Miscellaneous > The Lounge
No E3 for the Frogs
Faust:
quote: All you antiAmericans out there. Move out of the U.S. I don't want you here, you don't want you here. So just move. If you move to mexico you don't even have to become poor, in Mexico you would be rich. Move to the freedom taking countries. Where freedom of speech is not true, and no probable cause is needed for an arrest. Go to a place where you will not have a quick and speedy trial. Go to a place where they have stupid laws to hide the country's bad past (In germany Swastikas are illegal, In America I can still wear a cowboy outfit if I wish). Go to a country where there is no separation of church and state. Go to a country where you cannot have old cars because they do not meet smog regulations. Move to a country..... well, I think I've made my point.
--- End quote ---
Wow I think you just passed Siplus in stupidity.
Move to the freedom taking countries...
Like the US. The highest percentage of it's population in prison.
Where freedom of speech is not true
Like the US. How many of you want to censor this thread?
and no probable cause is needed for an arrest.
Like the US. It's the "homeland defense bill"
Go to a place where you will not have a quick and speedy trial.
Ha ha ha! Do you have any idea how backed up your courts are? The latest attempt to try and speed up death penalty cases was to ban appeals. 1 in 8 death penalty victims are later found innocent and you want to ban appeals? Stupid.
Go to a place where they have stupid laws to hide the country's bad past (In germany Swastikas are illegal
America doesnt need laws it just needs right wing "holocaust deniers." And your comments about Germany are offensive. They banned the swastika so that the neo nazis could not use it. Do you have any idea how many museums Germany has dedicated to remembering the holocaust? How many shrines to the dead cover Auschwitz? Entire concentration camps have been left standing so that the German people could never forget and would never repeat their actions. Did you have any idea that in Germany it is illegal to deny the holocaust? Hiding the past huh? How many Amricans care that you tried your own genocide wit h the native Americans? At least in Australia the government is still under pressure to formally apologize to our native population. At least some of us still care.
Go to a country where there is no separation of church and state.
This just gets better. Seperation of Church and State? In AMERICA???
Go to a country where you cannot have old cars because they do not meet smog regulations.
I wonder why the USA is so polluted... I wodner why Los Angeles is still a smog covered hell hole... And before you make comment yes I have been there.
well, I think I've made my point.
Yep, point being that you are a red neck retard.
Faust:
Oh and to the Russian. You fucking hypocrite. I admit that my country has done evil things how about you?
What happened after Chechs occupied a Russian museum? Hey! Lets roll the tanks into Chechoslavakia again!
The reason why the US gave weapons to the Afghanis was so that they could fight for their survival and freedom against the Russians. Yes the Taliban ended up controlling those weapons. But at least the Afghani people got the Russian occupiers out of their country.
Calum:
quote:Originally posted by Solo:
Calum: we aren't talking about you. Stay in the game.
--- End quote ---
actually you were talking directly to me and i was responding. i think perhaps i am staying in the game, but you have decided to change the rules.
quote:Oh and I don't care if you give your political opinions or not, and I am not a biggot. I am just trying to show any who think that their view is the common view that they are wrong
--- End quote ---
and you are not a bigot? nobody can say that the common view is wrong with such huge absolutism!
quote:and that others believe strongly in the U.S. All I am asking is that we no longer discuss politics at Fuckmicrosoft.com, because it is off-topic.
--- End quote ---
ok, ask, but be assured that the best you can do is stay out of political discussions which will invariably crop up in a free forum with intelligent people in it. If you don't want to talk about politics, then don't. You choose to do so however, just the same as everybody else here, so stop going on about how it shouldn't happen.
quote:As for the free speech thing, *get* *real*.
--- End quote ---
right, i'm convinced.
quote:In America you can say Whatever The _Fuck_ you want. If you hate our government, go out and tell everyone, send emails and mails to your congress.
go to the police station and say it. They will be like, "Okay... And you're telling us this why?"
How about this. Would it be hard for the webmaster to add another forum for political discussions, so that when we all figure, hey I'm bored let's go flame in the political forum, we just have to click one link?
Calum, is it possible for you to be wrong? That my government is *not* that bad, or if it is, I don't mind it because I know if it gets bad enough it can be changed?
--- End quote ---
ok, you make reasonable points here, of course i can be wrong, just like you can (i suppose that did occur to you?) but you fail to take the deep rooted apathy that the US has had drilled into it for the last 60 years or so into account. My point is, from the outside of the USA all the evidence appears to show that things definitely *are* that bad, at least for many of those of you who aren't rich honkies, so why aren't you changing things? the same reason 40% of you see no point in voting, APATHY. Admit its existence and fight to get rid of it, that's if you're not scared of the social revolution it *may* cause.
quote:Is it okay for you people to leave us alone and if you have complaints with our government making attacks on other countries to contact your government representative and tell him not to support us?
--- End quote ---
NO it is NOT and i will tell you why now. hang on, this deserves a paragraph of its own:
The only time you will EVER see me making comments which US citizens think are "anti-american" (whatever that means) but which the rest of the world see as my expression of free speech, those comments are ALWAYS in response to something a US citizen has said. I NEVER cast the first stone in this stupid insult flinging contest that you yanks appear to love so much. If the USA would shut the fuck up first, i would be happy to leave you alone on the other side of the ocean to get on with it yourselves, but you don't. Your people are always mouthing off on public boards and often you make racist and bigoted comments about non US people, like the one macman made in the first post of this thread for example. instead of standing up for your right to laugh at others when they are unfairly treated by your own immigration "officials", why not grow a social conscience, like a citizen of a mature country? Show me that the USA has the maturity to participate in the international community. Then and only then will i stop making what you term "anti-american" comments in response to you, because once your country finally grows up, it will no longer be necessary to make those comments any more.
quote:Is it possible that we can drop this all from FMS and talk about getting rid of Microsoft instead of about whether Bush sucks or not?
--- End quote ---
again, of course it is, but if you are that bothered about it, stay out of the political threads. that's it. you cannot have it both ways. politics exists, if you want to ignore it (like many US citizens do) then fine, that's your right, but do NOT try to impose your opinion of what you want onto what other people should want for themselves. If you don't like people talking about politics, you do not have to listen. Is this clear?
quote:If these forums are as fucked as you call them Calum, then is it possible to help unfuck them up by all of us just stopping? Is it possible that if you, one of the most persuasive and respected people here (in mine and many other opinions) could help to unfuck it by not calling people with other ideas names?
--- End quote ---
for the third and final time, i did NOT start it. I was thoroughly shocked at firstly the barbarity of macman finding the ill treatment of frenchmen "funny" and even more appalled to see other people agreeing with him. This is a social injustice and any who stand by it should, in my opinion, be shot. Harsh words, but i am a political radical in many senses. It is nothing personal, i would much rather people stop holding bigoted, possibly fascist beliefs, and where possible i will attempt to use reason to get them to do it. I personally will not be shooting anybody because i do not think i have that authority (and neither does anybody else, another thing many of you americans don't agree with). That aside, shocked as i was, my response contained a certain amount of invective which i do not regret, but which i may not have used had i had time to calm down from the original offensive post.
quote:The only reason I called you names is to just show you how uncalled for, stupid, and troll-like it was.
--- End quote ---
what was? the name calling? i didn't call you any names by the way (until you called me some), you claimed i made a personal attack on you, and while i don't think it's a big deal who called who what, i hadn't made a personal attack on you. i simply pointed out (in a colourful way) how a lot of US citizens are bigots and how this was barbaric, you, like many US citizens would, failed to read what i was actually saying beyond the fact that i was disagreeing with you, and you took it as a personal attack. This is basic psychological development here. Some people don't take the time to do it. that's their choice, but i think everybody should try to pay attention to how they react (including me, i am particularly volatile, which is why i am aware of this "reaction to stimulus" phenomenon).
quote:Trolls don't just mean that they are here a lot, it's that they post troll comments, comments that are just intended to create flames and make people angry.
--- End quote ---
so, you just defined trolling? as you can see, that is again the total opposite of what i am trying to do. i am simply trying to hold up a mirror to people, or present my views in a novel way so that people think for themselves and become active in the world instead of living their life as if death was their only goal. In the broadest sense, my expression of my own opinions is supposed to help instigate social change, and whether you agree with me or not, i deeply resent people who attempt to silence free speakers because the only alternative to change is stagnation.
quote:I have tried to be as fair and biased on this site as possible up to now but I think I'm just gonna leave if it's pointless to be here.
--- End quote ---
i know what you mean, i should never have come back here. Void's forum is a good one for this because he forbids politics, i also hang out there and i do not discuss politics there, because that is one of the rules. However free speech is one of the rules here and until that changes, i will be making full use of the freedom that gives me. Incidentally you said just then that you were biased, when i think you were trying to say unbiased. no big deal, i am just pedantic.
quote:Maybe the webmaster should just stop the forums if they are so fucked.
--- End quote ---
he hasn't, and he is a huge proponent of free speech, for which i applaud him. i wouldn't stop the forums if i were in his place no matter how fucked they got.
quote:I'm going to register on void-main's forums right now. Because somehow I don't think my words will be taken seriously, but instead twisted.
--- End quote ---
nice parting shot, shame you are so wrong, i feel i have responded in a full and unbiased way to your words, feel free to continue this argument but after a post or two, name calling becomes meaningless. as i said though, if you really do want to keep politics out of it, go to void's forum, or simply stay here and don't post in the ocassional political threads. If you do decide to take part in political discussion in a free forum though, do remember though that if you are allowed to pour your opinions out here, then so can everybody else. This is something that i do not think US citizens really realise, which is another indicator that perhaps they are not used to true free speech. Your police guys (in your example) saying "whatever) or whatever they said) is not an example of free speech, simply an example of how apathetic those police officers are. Try being black and phoning up a police station to say you are being racially abused and threatened and you will probably get the same response ("yeah, whatever"). This is not freedom of speech.
That's all for now, i have to read and respond to the other replies now because it seems despite my best intentions, i just get drawn into political debate, possibly because there's so much in the world that people take for granted which they should actually spend some time considering for themselves.
[ June 06, 2003: Message edited by: Calum ]
Calum:
quote:Originally posted by Faust:
Oh and to the Russian. You fucking hypocrite. I admit that my country has done evil things how about you?
--- End quote ---
stop right there. The BIG problem here, which i have pointed out time and time again is that many US citizens cannot tell the difference between the individual and the state. This does not seem to be a purely US issue however as you seem to have had this misunderstanding too.
Do you think this particular russian ordered such and such an atrocity to be commited? an individual russian is as guilty of for example the 1953 incident in East Germany where they used tanks to put down a people's uprising and imprisoned some of the demonstrators for years (look it up, it happened on 17th of June 1953) as i am guilty of the massacre of glencoe! (hint, i am not to blame for that massacre, i am not related in any way, through blood, time or anything other than nationality to those who commited that slaughter, i say this for the benefit of those who don't perhaps have much of a grasp on history or geography).
bottom line: A person is NOT their country... until they start believing they are. I have nothing against a US citizen, not until he starts standing up for the grotesque things his country has done, and more importantly is still doing. I have nothing but applause for a US citizen who speaks out and says "this is not justice, lets make our will known", i have no respect for US citizens who stand up for the status quo simply because they are frightened of social change.
quote:The reason why the US gave weapons to the Afghanis was so that they could fight for their survival and freedom against the Russians. Yes the Taliban ended up controlling those weapons. But at least the Afghani people got the Russian occupiers out of their country.
--- End quote ---
great. and what gave the great benevolent US, gods of the mortal universe the right to go selling weapons round the world in the first place? i put it to you that that reason is BULL SHIT. that's a reason fed to you by the US spin machine (or possibly the John Howard fan club). The real reason the US sells weapons is because
IT WANTS THE MONEY
get it? i think it's pretty simple and pretty obvious. I for one do NOT believe and will not believe that it never occurred to the US that selling a huge amount of weaponry to a third world country might mean that a terrorist organisation would get hold of the weapons.
of course nothing personal as usual etc, i just get kind of pissed off at everybody justifying all this shitty treatment of other human beings.
[ June 06, 2003: Message edited by: Calum ]
Calum:
quote:Originally posted by Siplus: *Capitalist*:
why should i be ashamed? i hate the french. i find this amusing
--- End quote ---
that's my point. to be amused at somebody else's suffering is as bad as hating somebody you have never met for abstract reasons which have been made up in the heads of other people you have never met and injected intravenously into your consciousness purely for the sake of keeping your economy ticking over.
quote:are you so sure there are no WMD in iraq? give the US time to see for sure. they have already found the 'mobile weapons labs' that they claimed iraq had
--- End quote ---
i'm not sure. to be honest if there are weapons there then i'd rather the US found them than some other group, i am just pissed of at how the US and UK (not sure about other nations) are handling the whole affair in terms of PR, it's very arrogant in my opinion to treat the mass populace as cattle, and it is infuriating to see that tactic actually working.
quote:funny...i don't remember them saying they are going to tear up iraq. they removed sadam and his loyalists, freed the nation from tyranny (temporarily, cause i'm sure they will allow another dictator to take saddam's place eventually), and are trying to setup a new government (which is taking FOREVER).
--- End quote ---
oh yes, and in the meantime, there's a US controlled "peace" keeping "force" there. No wonder it is taking so long. have you ever heard of oil? I will be happy when the US gives Iraq back to its people with no strings attached. Then and only then will Iraq be freed from tyranny. Until that happens i will remain unconvinced that money and oil are not the prime motivators for the Iraq action.
quote:oh, and yes, we do have WMD in USA, they are called atomic bombs. it is legal for us to have them because we don't have the entire world trying to get us to prove we have distroyed all of them.
--- End quote ---
oh right, so that's okay then. Also i have no concerns that the man responsible for the largest store of nuclear weapons known to humanity was a C student at college, only recently gave up his drink habit and has been described by Nelson Mandela (one of the most respected world leaders in this century or the last) as "a president who has no foresight, who cannot think properly". (in January 2003)
quote:i also never heard the second quote
--- End quote ---
it's not a quote, is this your main contention? that you think these are not quotes? well put it to bed, they are not quotes. i am paraphrasing. How can the US physically be quoted as saying something? If it were a quote i would have put the name of the person who said it, and possibly a URL and the date too, as it happens i could most likely dig out very similar quotes from members of the US military, so why pursue it? As i said i am paraphrasing. Go and do your own research, you might learn something.
quote:--where do you keep getting these from? i sure hope your not missquoting. that would be lying.
--- End quote ---
christ, are all americans this simple? (i know they are not, that was a deliberately inflammatory remark) it would not be "lying" it would be "paraphrasing". As i said i cannot be bothered to run around for quotes on the net to satisfy your obstreporousness, i am confident i could find suitable quotes, but you could do a better job yourself, since you would be more likely to believe your own results if you got involved a bit yourself.
quote:i also find this amusing: you people (liberals, french, most of western Europe)
--- End quote ---
ho hum
quote: kept saying 'give the inspections more time, give sadam more time, just give more time damnit.'
--- End quote ---
is that right? i sure hope you are not misquoting me because that would be lying. actually you will find if you do a search through my back posts on this forum that i always said a nice clean CIA style assasination (you know, like they did the Kennedys) of saddam hussein would be the best bet. I said the same thing about milosevic in fact.
quote:yet now, with only a few months, you are being WORCE then we were before this 'war'.
--- End quote ---
worce (sic) in what way?
quote:you want it NOW, and only NOW.
--- End quote ---
want what now?
quote:hypocrits.
--- End quote ---
right. not going to bother explaining your criticisms then? i still haven't a clue what you are on about.
quote:we waited for a LONG time before we went in, perhaps you could show the same pacience?
--- End quote ---
patience with what? what are you talking about? what is it that you think i want from you? you apparently completely misjudged my opinion before this little escapade, so i have no idea what you think my opinion is now.
quote:that statement makes no sence. Americans make up America, so if you hate one, you have the other. are you practicing your doublethink perhaps?
--- End quote ---
no. however you have conveniently illustrated in a couple of lines exactly what i meant. what i meant was that americans are people, the USA is a big homogenous country run by a bunch of elected and unelected officials (for want of e better word). Most americans feel so secure in their "democracy" that they do not bother to vote, or if they hear that other people's votes are being miscounted or "lost" they do not mind because they know they have a "democratic" country and that nothing really bad could ever happen in america. You choose to pull the woll over your own eyes. No country is ever free unless its citizens are active in the decision making process. Your citizens are some of the most apathetic in the world, hence you are some of the least free people to ever live in a democracy.
quote:first, give me an example of our immaturity! if we find a problem we can fix, we don't bitch about it for the next 4 decades, we FIX the problem!! NO, i DO NOT want to us to change our ways. if the rest of the world is too spineless to fix their own problems, then thank god we are here to fix them for you.
--- End quote ---
"we know best", another paraphrase there, but quite frankly i reject your opinion that you know best. Your country behaves in a stupid and selfish way because your citizens are too apathetic to make their views known. Those of you who speak about politics would rather defend your nonexistant democracy than fight to regain control of your nation. If somebody other than the US has a problem, then the US has NO JURISDICTION and should be advised that the only correct thing for them to do would be to FUCK OFF.
quote:i'm astonished. as far as i can see, it is the liberals (or, lefties, if you so disire) trying to take our rights away. such as the gun issue: demorats want to remove our right to own a gun that is given to us in our 2ed amendment.
--- End quote ---
democrats are NOT left wing. In fact in many ways they are more right wing than your republicans.
quote:Right-wingers are trying to assure us of our rights, and that is why i think of my self as conservative and NOT liberal: because i value freedom
--- End quote ---
conservatives only value freedom if freedom is already inherent in your nation. as i said before, you have been deluded into believing that freedom is there when i do not believe it is. Thus a conservative in such a country would actually be fighting to retain the lack of control that they do not realise has been imposed upon them. This is not pinko doublethink, but i despair of your ability to follow the reasoning past the first logical step, much less admit the possibility that it might be true.
quote:that picture was not trying to convince you of anything. was i saying anything that you would convinced of anything with? no, you're just a dumbass. i posted that b/c i remembered that picture when someone mentioned that quote. nothing more.
--- End quote ---
and so you posting that picture proves i am a dumbass? riiiiiiiight...
quote:hmm..you are posting bullshit. trolls post bullshit. let's put 2 and 2 together now...
--- End quote ---
hmm, what's wrong with this picture, lets see who is posting bullshit... This has lowered to pure namecalling now. i am getting bored. got anything better?
quote:yes, he WAS trying to be respectable at first, but then our continued ramblings pissed him off. solo: i'm sorry for adding fuel to their flaming and continuing this pointless debate
--- End quote ---
oh right, so now free speech is anti american? deary me i should have shut up and lowered my eyes, sorry massa!
quote:there is a difference between debating politics and posting bullshit.
--- End quote ---
a difference you and many others seem hard pushed to distinguish.
quote:so you think that exposing 3-year-old children to porn, violent movies, foul language, and immoral people is not wrong?
--- End quote ---
oh do i? well for your information i do not think those things, however i DO NOT agree with censorship in any form there is a difference between exposing, pushing, selling, etc. you on the other hand want to put a gun in the hand of every criminal and a gag round the mouth of everyone you disagree with.
quote:you have problems...censorship is not evil, but there are degrees of censorship that should never come into existence.
--- End quote ---
censorship is evil. and i do have problems, but my stance on social justice is not one of them.
quote:yup, i don't want to talk about politics here, but i CAN NOT LET your bullshit go unchallenged. i CAN NOT STAND reading what you people post, and i must do all that i can to stop it. staying silent will not help. i admit that what i'm doing isn't either, but it is better then remaining silent.
--- End quote ---
now who's the hypocrite?
quote:because we don't like them. we don't want them here, they don't want to be here, so we are merely suggesting something that will make both of us happy.
--- End quote ---
all of what you just said was bigoted, and bordering on racism. It completely disregarded people's ability to be individuals in their own right.
quote:we are not goign to force them to leave. we are not goign to show upto their homes with guns and forfully kick them out of america.
--- End quote ---
is that right? check again in maybe ten years and say that.
quote:we are suggesting and hoping they will agree to it. it would still be their choice.
--- End quote ---
give me your tired and your hungry... do you even know what that means? it means about as much as "to serve and protect".
quote:hmm...where do i begin?
--- End quote ---
probably up your own arse, that's where you usually begin.
quote:a speedy trial: meaning that we will not have to rott in jail for years before we are brought before a judge? is that what you mean? if that is the case, then i want a speedy trial. oh, and the death penilty: i do not want ANY portion of my taxmoney going the expenses of housing, food, clothing, health, or any other aspect of a mass murderer!!
--- End quote ---
in our country people are innocent until proven guilty. i think you will find that legally that is still the case in your country too, however different the reality may seem. Interesting how it only took a couple of dozen words for someone to become a "mass murderer". That aside, i agree that the legal system is not nearly as expedient as it should be in many cases however it seems the usual way to speed it up is to ignore some of the facts, which is the last thing you want to leave out of a "fair" trial.
quote:why pay for them the rest of their lives? they are not contributing to society being in jail, and we can not trust them IN society, so i think they should leave our world to burn in hell, instead of rotting in jail.
--- End quote ---
who's "them"? the estimated twenty percent (and rising) of wrongly sentenced criminals who burn in your inhumane electric chairs? this is a new subject you have broached, and it is one i am in no way conclusive about, because i do not think it is my right to say yea or nay to whether to end someone else's life or not. I do see and understand most of the reasons for doing so though, given a perfect justice system.
quote:LOL. haha, that's stupid. but i'm sure that it is NOT enforced. if it is, you can always challenge it in court, and i'm sure that the law would be declared unconstitional
--- End quote ---
you reckon? the fact is, it's the law. go to california and find out sometime, why don't you?
quote:no. it doesn't. not "all" other countries are undemocratic. that is not true. but we do have third-world countries like iran, sudi arabia, cuba who are all undemocratic.
--- End quote ---
but there are worlds of difference in what can be considered "democracy". Most of the world's major countries these days are one form of democracy or another. the "united" kingdom is a liberal democracy, meaning that you can do anything you like unless there is a law against it. the laws are maintained by a house of elected reprasentatives, and then passed or rejected by an unelected house. These houses are officially apointed by the queen of england who in reality has no right to an official political opinion. In reality the involvement of royalty is ludicrous in a democracy, the voting system we have hear is medieaval and insures that the majority of votes are not counted, and almost 30% of voters do not turn out at the polls anyway (our old friend apathy). I say this because other democracies are totally different. In Australia they have over 98% turnout rate at the polls, because voting is a legally enforced requirement. In Germany they have a voting system that allows everyone's vote to be counted towards an actual result. Not all democracies are fair, in fact i suspect there are not any which are fair. I don't have that much of a better idea for what else to use though as a system of government, other than to try and make our current democracies fairer for the people, rather than the administrators.
quote:there are more corrupt organizations. think of MS, Saddam's former government, cuba, N. Korea, oh, and can't forget the biggest communist state: china
--- End quote ---
actually i almost totally agree with you here, except that china is communist in name only. human beings have an inherent greed which makes them into capitalists. i think it is unlikely that the idealogy of communism can ever be implemented for this reason.
[ June 06, 2003: Message edited by: Calum ]
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