New NeXTStep / OSX Based OS

[flap]

I have to ask, are any of you actually programmers?

[worker201]

Yeah, is this going to be something I can install this Christmas?  Or is it more like a wish-list for the ultimate OS?

[billy_gates]

Yeah, is this going to be something I can install this Christmas?  Or is it more like a wish-list for the ultimate OS?

whether we were programmers or not,  you would not have much to install by christmas.

I know I am not a programmer, but that is why we are sort of advertising.  This is the wrong group cus most of you don't use Objective C.  We have to find more NeXT oriented sites.  But I thought it wouldn't hurt to advertise here.

[hm_murdock]

much of the low-level changes will be coded in C or C++. the Dagon display layer would be written in C. system-level stuff will be done using normal Linux APIs and the like. Objective C will only be used or applications and high-level things

[suselinux]

that would be FreeBSD. Remember, it's the kernel that makes it Linux.

Sorry, Sorry I meant to say GNU, really I did... :rolleyes:  oh well, now Im black listed as the idiot.

[hm_murdock]

I've got a question for you guys. jeff seems to be pretty arrogant in his thinking on this. he seems to want to turn the concept of this OS into being a Mac OS X clone... I think that's a bad idea.

this OS will be designed for PCs, and therefore, people will have PC keyboards. PC keyboards have Ctrl, Windows/Start and Alt. Ctrl will do what it always does, be a part of univerally accepted key shortcuts (ctrl V ctrl C, et cetera) alt will be a modifier for ctrl. Windows/Start... what's it do?

My proposition is to let it do what it does in Windows... operate system-wide commands.

Windows E opens an Explorer window
Windows F opens the Find window
Windows R opens the run window

Have functions like Windows K open a "connect to Server" dialog (Command K does this in the OS X Finder)...

Windows E would open a new file browser
Windows F would open Find

Sound familiar? The idea is to give Windows users a BETTER alternative... but it also has to be familiar. There are a number of people who undoubtedly use the built-in functionality of the Windows key. Why not provide a use for it?

He says use it to just only open a launcher menu, or even do nothing at all. He'd rather force users into doing it HIS WAY OR THE HIGHWAY. I vote for giving people the option, and letting them decide.

He says that this would be "unlike any other OS" which is a lie because Windows already does it.

If you're going to get Windows users to switch, you should offer similar functionality. Don't copy from windows, and don't copy from OS X.

update: his issue was that because I didn't SPECIFICALLY STATE that the windows/Start key would have a function of its own, then I intended it to have none.

by saying that it can do the "same thing that it does in windows" I could never have meant that it does something when you simply press it.

wow. just wow

DENSER THAN A NEUTRON STAR

[ September 25, 2003: Message edited by: Jimmy's Always On Topic ]

further update:

we've figured it out...

hitting the start key will open a full-screen list of installed apps, a la F10 Launch Studio. the key will also be used for Windows-like shortcuts.

[ September 25, 2003: Message edited by: Jimmy's Always On Topic ]

[billy_gates]

after a long and heated debate with JJ.  I think we have decided that having to separate letters to do the same thing would be kind of dumb.  As in ctrl n would be a new window, but windows e would do the same thing.  Does't make much sense.  Instead the windows key shouold forward those commands to the shell (finder type thing).  so if the shell command is ctrl n then windows n will do the same thing from anywhere in the system.  And ctrl k will do the same thing as windows k.  And for those few things not controlled by the shell, like logout and restart and stuff will have their own specific windows + key.  that ctrl + key will not work in the shell.... but they can't conflict.  So if ctrl + s is save in the shell (not sure what u can save in the finder like thing) then windows s cannot be shutdown.  it must be save.

I think that makes the most sense.

Now when u just hit the windows button down and let go it will open something like this:
http://www.skinner.com/jeffberg/files/f10/
(note from Orethrius: link is dead, no forwarding address)

the first picture is when u first open it (press the windows key) the second picture shows the live search (as u type in letters it narrows down ur apps)  now to keep the non apps function available visually, we would have hardcoded shutdown and restart and logout command in there at the top.  However once you start searching they act like normal programs.  So when i first open it, all the hard coded ones will be the top row.  Then when I hit "in" to open IE they will disappear just like all of the other icons that don't match in would.  Now if i searched for "shut" then they weould disappear except for shutdown.  Make sense?

I think this is the most intuitive and simple way to get the best of both worlds.  Easy to remember system wide shortcuts and a nice visual way to launch apps.

for more info on f10 go here:
http://www.chronosnet.com/&/products/f10/f10_product.html
(note from Orethrius: link is dead, Archive.org)

P.S. I do not insist that this OS be an OSX clone.  but I do want a couple of things from OSX.  Like the universal menu bar at the top, and a dock that can act like OSX (alghough it doesn't have to act "only" like OSX... it should be able to be set like OSX's)
Then another request is an OS 9 based finder (shell).  AKA no folder can be open in 2 windows at the same time.  Also it would save the folder size and placement setting not in.ds_Store or desktop.ini's but in the folders meta data.  I also think Meta data on this FS would be good.

P.S.S. I resent being called as dense as a neutron star.  JJ made no hint as to the windows key having another function.  When he said it will work exactly like windows. that registered to me as it will work exactly how windows works when u do windows + e or whatever.  There was no statement or hint to a different function of this key

P.S.S.S.
Me and JJ also shortly discussed the possibility of making this a 64 bit OS.  the transition will happen soon,  Might as well do it.


jeffberg over and out

[ September 25, 2003: Message edited by: jeffberg: Mac Capitalist ]

[hm_murdock]

I coulda called ya a black hole  

[billy_gates]

I coulda called ya a black hole      

true

[worker201]

My proposition is to let it do what it does in Windows... operate system-wide commands.

Windows E 0pens an Explorer window
Windows F 0pens the Find window
Windows R 0pens the run window

I've been using Windows for 10 years and I've never even heard of this stuff.  And you'd be surprised how many daily Windows users have no idea what Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V do.  I use the Win button on my laptop to access the start menu cuz I hate the trackpad, but that's the only thing I've ever used it for.

I sure as hell wouldn't lose any sleep over this.

[hm_murdock]

but there are people who use it. I feel it would be better that the functions were there, lest they be disappointed when they can't do all the same things that they did in
windows

[worker201]

I'd love to offer my support to this project, but the only thing I can do really well is make maps - and that isn't very useful to you.  Maybe I could beta-test or write some documentation later in the project, or something.

[Laukev7]

Uhm, but isn't this going to SERIOUSLY harm Apple if everyone just starts using an OS X clone instead of the real thing? I think this is a major concern that should be discussed before getting into such a project.

[Calum]

1) who cares?

2) no.

let me expand:

1) when has a new product ever worried about how it will affect the market? new products are supposed to attempt to glut the market and that's it.they do not usuallyworry about the touchy feely aspects of everybody having a nice timetogether because competition is not like that.

2) it's not going to be official, it sounds like it'll not really be the same as MacOSX in a lot of ways, if it was, what would be the point in it? it's simply identifying a new market and catering for it.

[hm_murdock]

Calum's got it exactly right. the idea is *not* to create an OS X clone. If anything, it's going to be a NeXT clone with some OS X ideas tossed in for some measure of "familiarity", because OS X's way of doing some things are much less jarringly different than NeXT.

The point is to create something that's both an evolution of NeXT, and it's own unique UI. The underlying OS is very definitely built on NeXT's concepts, but it takes some things even farther, such as the folder structure.

UNIX and clones use myriad folders for storing bits and pieces. NeXT and its derivatives put all the UNIX stuff in /private and then all the higher-level parts go into /System/Library, /Library, and some user-specific  bits fall into ~/Library

We want to put the /private folder inside of /System, get rid of /Library, so that only /System/Library exists, and have ~/Library be replaced by ~/Preferences.

Remember, saying "we want to base it on NeXT" doesn't mean "OS X clone"... OS X is a NeXT derivative, not NeXTStep itself. OS X is NeXT with the Mac UI rules applied to it. We'd take NeXT and just change its UI some to friendly it up.