All Things Microsoft > Microsoft Software
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piratePenguin:
We have a choice: free or non-free.
I chose free, for two main reasons: free is the way things should be, and, non-free is the way things shouldn't be.
piratePenguin:
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---Why is reducing people's choice of software availble on the platform a good thing?
--- End quote ---
Because it's reducing the choice of non-free software available on a free operating system.
Remind me, why did RMS begin the GNU project?
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---No they did it to boost its popularity.
--- End quote ---
Same idea.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---Without the industry backing it?
I don't think so.
--- End quote ---
Yes - that's why they invented the LGPL.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---No you haven't and most of the alternatives available have a steeper leaning curve while others aren't proper alternatives since they lack some features that some users require or they are simply pure shit.
--- End quote ---
So long as they're livable, it wouldn't matter to me.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---Which won't happen unless you allow proprietary software on the scene.
--- End quote ---
Exactly my point (well, same idea).
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---Right now you're making your finally point clear, you want the Linux operating system to remain completely free and not become semi-free which is fair enough but why would allowing proprietary software on it destroy this vision?
--- End quote ---
The operating system itself would be free. But you won't get much work done on an operating system alone. If the most popular or the better software isn't free - that'll create more pressure for everyone to use non-free software.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---You've already said (as far as you're concerned anyway) they're are free alternatives for eveything and if they're supposed to be so much better than their proprietary counterparts then why are you so worried about competition all of a sudden?
--- End quote ---
Err, I never said they were all better than the non-free counterparts (good word. I would usually say "alternative" but I say that too much in the wrong places.).
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---Which is the retarded sort of totalitarian policy I and most of the industry will fight against because it's evil and would be an insult to humanity.
--- End quote ---
"GNU you mother fuckers! You've licenced your glibc library under the fucking GPL! Now it'll be a fucking bitch to write software for your operating system unless it's free."
Yea, I can imagine it.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---If welcomming proprietary software will further Linux's goal of becomming the main OS than I think it'd be worth it.
--- End quote ---
I don't. And I dunno how RMS feels on the matter - I must email him sometime. Seeing as he accepts the LGPL... I'd have no idea.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---Why do you hate Java? Please give a reason other than simply because it's proprietary as I think we're all tired to that argument.
--- End quote ---
It's increadibly slow, and C# kicks it's balls.
If Microsoft can beat it - it must suck (that was a joke).
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---Personally I dislike Java because it's slow even .NET might be better.
--- End quote ---
From what I know about .NET, it rocks in areas.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---Now look who's being selfish, "in my situation", what about me and the rest of the world, do you seriously think we're better off now with Winblow$ than we would be with Linux which I'd use if the proprietary software I rely on supported it?
--- End quote ---
Actually, I said "Things couldn't be better - in my situation and alot of other people's situations.".
Note, and note well, the very distinct "and alot of other people's situations".
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---Wow your debating skills really impress me!
--- End quote ---
Thank you :D
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---I presented a clear and detailed argument as to why encouraging proprietary software on Linux will increase its popularity and the best you can come up with is "not very likely", sorry not good enough, please provide reasons as to why allowing non-free software on the Linux scene won't help linux spread.
--- End quote ---
You presented, IMO, a very retarded view. And I replied with (just taking the piss):
--- Quote ---So we'll all go non-free for a while. We'll go back to 1980, or
whenever it was that the software sharing communities were in decline.
And then well go free! Yey!
I doubt it very much. It'd only make things much harder.
Plus, I like the way things are hopefully headed (and I've already explained this before).
--- End quote ---
Your magnificant idea, or whatever the hell it is, might well be good at gaining more popularity for GNU/Linux. But I would doubt that it wouldn't have damaging consequences freedom-wise, in the short and long term.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---So, just carry on using you non-free software then, nothing's going to stop you.
--- End quote ---
Jesus. Typo, right?
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---Why do you think this?
I say bullshit, you'd have far more choice, more people would have the option of running Linux if the proprietary software they need supported it and adding proprietary options to the big list of free options would give an increased number of options to the Linux user.
--- End quote ---
Did you read the whole sentence?
"for those who don't want to support non-free software"
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---yes, no, yes, make your mind up.
--- End quote ---
I did. And it was a tough call. But yea, I did.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---Alright then you don't have a problem with WINE but what about WINElib?
Why is encourageing ex-Windows users to run thier old Windows programs with WINE any worse than encouraging the companies who write the software to create Linux versions? The latter is more constructive as it'll provide the user with more choice.
--- End quote ---
I answered yes.
piratePenguin:
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---I'm mature enough to accept that everything can't be free.
--- End quote ---
Who's talking about everything being free here?
We're talking about software that is free and software that isn't free.
Understanding that is very fucking important!
Aloone_Jonez:
--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---Because it's reducing the choice of non-free software available on a free operating system.
--- End quote ---
Which would make the operating system shit because people would have a smaller range of software to choose from, a good OS is no good if it doesn't have good wide range software and games some of which are only catered for by proprietary developers.
--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---Remind me, why did RMS begin the GNU project?
--- End quote ---
To support the sharing of code and discourage closed source programs, but at least they've had the sense to realize that blind hate of proprietary software won't help thier cause, and allowing its use on their OS will increase it's popularity, hence the popularity of free software in general.
--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---Yes - that's why they invented the LGPL.
--- End quote ---
So how is gaining the support of the industry a bad thing?
--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---So long as they're livable, it wouldn't matter to me.
--- End quote ---
You're being selfish again, you can only see things from your perspective or that of people with similar beliefs as yourself.
--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---The operating system itself would be free.
--- End quote ---
Of course that will never change.
--- Quote from: piratePenguin --- But you won't get much work done on an operating system alone. If the most popular or the better software isn't free - that'll create more pressure for everyone to use non-free software.
--- End quote ---
How could that change?
There will be no preasure at all, people will just have the ability to migrate to Linux from Windows and continiue to run play their games and use Protel and Pro Engineer for designing things.
--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---Err, I never said they were all better than the non-free counterparts
--- End quote ---
You're spot on there.
--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---(good word. I would usually say "alternative" but I say that too much in the wrong places.).
--- End quote ---
I suppose it was quite good, for you at least.
--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---"GNU you mother fuckers! You've licenced your glibc library under the fucking GPL! Now it'll be a fucking bitch to write software for your operating system unless it's free."
--- End quote ---
Yes, too bad my company can't use Linux because the vendors who supply us with the software we rely on will never have the chance to develop Linux versions, thank you RMS and FUCK YOU TOO! :fu:
--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---Yea, I can imagine it.
--- End quote ---
So can I but only comming from the mouths of ignoramuses.
--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---I don't. And I dunno how RMS feels on the matter - I must email him sometime. Seeing as he accepts the LGPL... I'd have no idea.
--- End quote ---
Go on discuss this with him, I hope he's got plenty of patience because he's sure going to need it.
--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---It's increadibly slow, and C# kicks it's balls.
If Microsoft can beat it - it must suck (that was a joke).
From what I know about .NET, it rocks in areas.
--- End quote ---
I agree.
--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---Actually, I said "Things couldn't be better - in my situation and alot of other people's situations.".
--- End quote ---
You're still being selfish, you're only considering the people in the same position as you. What about the rest of the world? Are you telling everyone else in a differant situation or opinion to go to hell?
--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---Note, and note well, the very distinct "and alot of other people's situations".
--- End quote ---
Well done! You still continiue to demonstrate how un-objective you are and how you are incapable of seeing things from anyone else's viewpoint - this is also the critical flaw in your debating style.
--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---Thank you :D
--- End quote ---
Someone obviously doesn't have their sarcasm radar tuned in.
--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---You presented, IMO, a very retarded view. And I replied with (just taking the piss):Your magnificant idea, or whatever the hell it is,
--- End quote ---
[sarcasm] It's nice to see how respectful you are of other's opinions[/sarcasm]
--- Quote from: piratePenguin --- might well be good at gaining more popularity for GNU/Linux.
--- End quote ---
Correct, this is a very good thing as it'd move more people away from Windows as well as increasing the use of free software.
--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---But I would doubt that it wouldn't have damaging consequences freedom-wise, in the short and long term.
--- End quote ---
The LGPL is very good freedom wise because it allows people the freedom to develop Linux versions of their products which will in turn give more people the freedom to choose a Linux based operating system.
--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---Jesus. Typo, right?
--- End quote ---
No, I was just respecting your point of view which is that proprietary software is evil and you refuse to use it which is your choice and right and I respect it even though I dsagree.
--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---Did you read the whole sentence?
"for those who don't want to support non-free software"
--- End quote ---
No one's forcing you to support non-free software.
--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---I did. And it was a tough call. But yea, I did.
I answered yes.
--- End quote ---
I'm glad you got there in the end and I hope your head doesn't hurt. :D
Alright you obviously think allowing companies to develop Linux versions of their propretary products is bad and WINE is too. How about the other way round?
Do you think it's worng to port free Linux programs to Windows? Is this bad for Linux?
I think this is also good idea as after all it's increasing the number of people using the free product.
piratePenguin:
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---Which would make the operating system shit because people would have a smaller range of software to choose from, a good OS is no good if it doesn't have good wide range software and games some of which are only catered for by proprietary developers.
--- End quote ---
It'd still be perfectly usable.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---at least they've had the sense to realize that blind hate of proprietary software won't help thier cause
--- End quote ---
"blind hate"? "blind"?
Like I've already said:
--- Quote ---I chose free, for two main reasons: free is the way things should be, and, non-free is the way things shouldn't be.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---and allowing its use on their OS will increase it's popularity, hence the popularity of free software in general.
--- End quote ---
Exactly, they did it for popularity, at least from what I can see...
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---So how is gaining the support of the industry a bad thing?
--- End quote ---
Because the large bulk of the industry is non-free.
The more non-free software on a free operating system, fuckit, the more non-free software in the world. Actually, that's completely wrong, the less free software, the less choice and the harder it is for those who don't want to use non-free software.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---You're being selfish again, you can only see things from your perspective or that of people with similar beliefs as yourself.
--- End quote ---
No, ass, I speak for myself, and only myself.
I dunno if it'd matter to Joe Stupid and friends. How the fuck would I? How do you expect me to?
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---How could that change?
--- End quote ---
How couldn't it change?
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---I suppose it was quite good, for you at least.
--- End quote ---
Now why is that?
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---Yes, too bad my company can't use Linux because the vendors who supply us with the software we rely on will never have the chance to develop Linux versions, thank you RMS and FUCK YOU TOO! :fu:
--- End quote ---
Eh, no. Again, if you read what I said, "unless it's free", then, well, it all makes sense.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---So can I but only comming from the mouths of ignoramuses.
--- End quote ---
I was emulating what you and your buddies would be saying. But yea, I agree.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---Go on discuss this with him, I hope he's got plenty of patience because he's sure going to need it.
--- End quote ---
I'd imagine he does...
Didn't he start GNU or something like that?
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---I agree.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---You're still being selfish, you're only considering the people in the same position as you. What about the rest of the world? Are you telling everyone else in a differant situation or opinion to go to hell?
--- End quote ---
Well I dunno what it's like to be in their situation so how the fuck can I speak for them?
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---Someone obviously doesn't have their sarcasm radar tuned in.
--- End quote ---
Mine's tuned in alright. But I just couldn't not seize the moment.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---[sarcasm] It's nice to see how respectful you are of other's opinions[/sarcasm]
--- End quote ---
Well you're not very respectful to me or my opinions either - so don't even go there.
And I was just being honest - it was the stupidest thing I heard in a long time.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---The LGPL is very good freedom wise because it allows people the freedom to develop Linux versions of their products which will in turn give more people the freedom to choose a Linux based operating system.
--- End quote ---
It gives developers the freedom to use a free project in their own and not give their users any freedom. I'm against it.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---No, I was just respecting your point of view which is that proprietary software is evil and you refuse to use it which is your choice and right and I respect it even though I dsagree.
--- End quote ---
Are you sure?
Re: "Hippy luney" et cetera.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---No one's forcing you to support non-free software.
--- End quote ---
Noone's forcing anyone to use Windows or any other Microsoft product (e.g. Office/Word).
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---How about the other way round?
Do you think it's worng to port free Linux programs to Windows? Is this bad for Linux?
--- End quote ---
It's a good thing for free software, but as for GNU/Linux, it's most likely a bad thing, but I'm not interested in that.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---I think this is also good idea as after all it's increasing the number of people using the free product.
--- End quote ---
Same.
--- End quote ---
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