Stop Microsoft
All Things Microsoft => Microsoft Software => Topic started by: worker201 on 13 December 2009, 04:55
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As part of my work-from-home job, I had to visit the Dell website. Now, I have no plans to ever buy a non-Apple again, but sometimes it's fun to just pretend. So I went browsing to see what kind of machine I could put together. I was interested in the Inspiron 537 desktop, just because they come in such neat colors.
Okay, so to the point. The base price includes Windows 7 Premium. For an extra $100 (from base price), you can get Windows 7 Professional (I assume this is what I would want?). For an extra $120 (from base price) you can get Windows 7 Ultimate.
For an extra $120 (from base price), you can get Windows XP.
Windows XP must have paid for its development 200 times over already. That thing is nothing but profit at this point. So charging so much money for something that should be basically free is just cruelty. And yet there is software that I use professionally which isn't tried on Windows 7 (still barely works in Vista). So at this point, I would have no option but to pay this "not sure yet" tax.
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I can't see myself ever buying Windows, again.
I don't see the point, there is no reason for me to have Windows installed.
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Fuck Windows!
*In French*
Windows Guy: J'ai faim. Avez-vous faim?
Linux Guy: Non.
Windows Guy: Pourquoi pas?
Linux Guy: C'est parce que je suis maigre et que vous
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Dell used to have a FreeDOS option. This is probably another OEM deal with Microsoft.
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Yes they have Ubuntu ONLY on netbooks and the Zino HD, an undesirable option.
It's a trust fund, *kids*. They had a link to dell.ca/open which gives a 404 error.
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Who's gong to want FreeDOS?
As far as I'm concerned FreeDOS is only useful for emulators, hard drive checking tools and really old computers i.e. 486 16MB or less, basically anything too low-powered for Damn Small Linux.
Why not simply minimise the Microsoft tax?
If I were a PC manufacturer, I'd be tempted to ship with Linux plus the cheapest and lightest Windows version pre-configured in a VM. That way the consumer would be happy to run all the Windows software they want with all the functionality of Linux and minimal Microsoft tax.
Talking of VMs, does anyone know if it's possible to dynamically adjust the amount of memory allocated to a VM according to the OS?
The guest OS would obviously need a kernel mode driver but I'm sure it's possible. That way you could initially allocate a small amount of RAM for Windows, i.e. 128MB and increase/decrease it as needs be, once the maximum memory limit is exceeded swap could be used.
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Who's gong to want FreeDOS?
I want FreeDOS with my new Dell.
- Manufacturer has no shitty deals with the software company
- No extra OS costs for me
- Severe cost reduction for the manufacturer, loading the FreeDOS image on a hard-disc is done within seconds
- No dicking around with serial keys by the manufacturer (cost reduction), the client gets a closed Windows package
- Easy to remove for me
- No claims of favouritism from Microsoft or Ubuntu
- Option to buy Windows as an extra, or an Ubuntu CD for
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Fuck Dell for not giving Linux systems. Fuck Microsoft for giving planned obsolesce. Fuck FreeDOS for being too old.
I would rather go with a Mac mini, a TouchSmart 300 with Ubuntu, a MacBook (maybe MacBook Air), an iPod touch or an Acer Aspire 1410 with Ubuntu. Dell is nothing but a loyal Microsoftist PC manufacturer. WAR AGAINST MICROSOFTISM!!!
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Who's gong to want FreeDOS?
As far as I'm concerned FreeDOS is only useful for emulators, hard drive checking tools and really old computers i.e. 486 16MB or less, basically anything too low-powered for Damn Small Linux.
Why not simply minimise the Microsoft tax?
If I were a PC manufacturer, I'd be tempted to ship with Linux plus the cheapest and lightest Windows version pre-configured in a VM. That way the consumer would be happy to run all the Windows software they want with all the functionality of Linux and minimal Microsoft tax.
Talking of VMs, does anyone know if it's possible to dynamically adjust the amount of memory allocated to a VM according to the OS?
The guest OS would obviously need a kernel mode driver but I'm sure it's possible. That way you could initially allocate a small amount of RAM for Windows, i.e. 128MB and increase/decrease it as needs be, once the maximum memory limit is exceeded swap could be used.
If I were a PC manufacturer, I would give users an option to try Ubuntu or Puppy with Wine and Beryl. When ReactOS is stable (hence my name) I would give them that.
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I'd rather have Linux over FreeDOS any day, even Ubuntu, at least if I don't like it I download a different distribution.
The Internet under FreeDOS is only semi-functional, what browsers are there apart from Lynx and Arachne which might not be compatible with the site where you want to download Linux from?
How's ReactOS going? I've never tried it. Maybe I'll try it in VirtualBox.
I suppose React OS only needs to be able to run all the FOSS programs Windows can and work on most computers in order for it to become useful. NTFS support would also be very useful, perhaps 3G could be ported but as it's a FUSE driver it'll need some kind of bootstrap.
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In related news, Dell also sells a whole bunch of different mp3 players. However, none of them are iPods.
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How's ReactOS going? I've never tried it. Maybe I'll try it in VirtualBox.
I've never tried it either but I hope ReactOS 0.5 comes out soon. They have a lack of manpower and 34 developers. It's not reasonable as Windows has 1000 developers. They need more developers. Is there a developer here that can help ReactOS?
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I've just given it a shot, I didn't bother installing it, I just downloaded an image.
It's obviously half finished but it seems to be quite fast and stable even in a VM with only 192MB RAM.
I tried downloading Firefox using the built-in downloader program but it didn't work. I don't know if it's ReactOS's poor Internet connectivity, if it doesn't support the emulated network card or is a problem with the downloader or just its configuration.
It doesn't have guest additions so installing software onto it is a pain. I had to put Firefox in an ISO image and mount that. I tried installing Firefox 3.5.5 but it failed, maybe I'll try 3.0 or 2.0.
I've had a go at installing Inkscape which is seems to be progressing albeit really slowly, I'm not hopeful.
I think there needs to be an alternative to Linux, don't get me wrong there's nothing wrong with Linux, I just think there should be more personal choice. I hope that Sky OS is made FOSS again and some big company starts maintaining it.
Then there's Google's Chrome OS, Linux based I know but if there's anyone who can make a Linux desktop hit the mainstream it's Google.
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I just wish I could contribute to the GUI and basic requirements of ReactOS and make it look more like a LXDE genre while improving on the basic system requirements (e.g. 32MB of RAM needed can be one half of the requirement as well as the hard drive space requirement).
And then again, for people who JUST need the web, look at Fusion Garage's Joo Joo. Wish I could be a part of their team and add many improvements to make it attractive and stylish while fully functional and requires no need for learning (just like your voice).
Microsoft again builds complicated stuff. What we need is simplicity, and Microsoft doesn't follow that UNIX philosophy.
Or, I could just build my own simple OS (something like DSL but needs no learning like the Joo Joo). With my own 16 apps and the security philosophies of Chrome, which I am using. And the simplicity of the Joo Joo.
The best path for Bill Gates though was to be a doctor instead of a multi billionaire (as his parents wished).
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Dell does or atleast did offer Ubuntu as a factory option on some lower end desktops and laptops. Guess not anymore?
As far as the Windows XP "tax" goes, I believe it is because Microsoft is trying very hard to kill XP as quickly as possible. So MS won't cut Dell the same pricing deals if they go with XP instead of 7
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ReactOS has similar memory requirements to XP because it has to effectively emulate XP.
I think there should also be a project to help Linux use Windows printer and scanner drivers using a wrapper. I'm sure it's possible as it's already been done with Wi-Fi and even the NTFS file system driver. Enabling Linux to use more Windows drivers would help combat the lack of hard ware support in some areas.
Fuck FreeDOS for being too old.
I wouldn't say that, FreeDOS already has a home on my PC under DOSEmu which can run most DOS games and Windows 3.1 faster than DOSBox.
EDIT:
Here's a screen shot.
There seems to be a bug which causes graphics to be overwritten if a window is placed over another window which is being updated.
Installing Inkscape took about five hours to complete and it doesn't even work, clicking on the icon doesn't do anything no error, no BSOD nothing.
ReactOS has a long way to go.
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Wow, ReactOS has a lot of glitches.
If it takes a long time for them to release the software, why not rework an LXDE esque GUI and simplify it?
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Worker, you can get XP with the expensive versions of 7 if your chipset supports virtualization.
http://www.petri.co.il/installing-windows-xpm-on-windows-7.htm (http://www.petri.co.il/installing-windows-xpm-on-windows-7.htm)
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^ Or I could pay $80 and install Windows XP virtually on my Mac. According to live reports, ArcGIS Desktop 9.2 runs better on a Mac running Parallels and Windows XP than it does on Windows Vista or Windows 7. Proving once again that the best PC to run Windows is a Mac.
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hmm, the main issue for me is that buyers of a computer set (ie: computer plus all the peripherals, software together etc) should always be given the choice of NOT paying for the software. ie: if i buy a computer, i do NOT want to pay for a copy of MS Windows on a new PC for example, because i am likely to just wipe it off the drive anyway.
re: FreeDOS and Linux preinstalled, yes, it's a free country, what the market will bear etc, but here's what i think: any linux user should be able and willing to install it him/herself anyway, so getting linux preinstalled is not helpful. Controversial, possibly, but in my opinion computer users need to be more informed than the average windoid. If you can't even install the system yourself, what with the easy peasy installers they have now, then you probably shouldn't be allowed near a computer unsupervised anyway (let alone with an open wallet!)
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I agree with what you're saying in principle: no one should have to pay for an operating system they're not going to use.
However, computers have always shipped with an OS pre-installed, being able to choose is a relatively new thing. Historically the OS was installed on ROM so the user couldn't modify it or install a new OS, it's only since hard drives became people have people had that luxury.
If you feel that strongly about wanting to buy a PC without Windows installed then why don't you just build your own?
The advantage of building your own Linux PC is you can choose hardware that will give you the best performance under Linux.
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Apart from video games and the security software on some of my USB keys, there's no reason for me to actually have Windows installed (one of my hard drive's partitions has a paid version of Linux installed in it). The only way you could escape this tax is to take the shipped copy of Windows back for a refund. But if you're an inexperienced user who requires Windows for your software, say, games, MS Office and what have you, where does that leave you?
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MS Office can be easily replaced with OpenOffice.org.
I'm not sure if you can take just Windows back for a refund. I think that you either get refunded for the whole PC or keep it.
It's like saying "I bought my PC and am happy with everything apart from the monitor, can I please have a refund for the monitor and nothing else?"
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I thought it was possible to do this if you refused to accept the EULA, at least, if it has not actually been installed for you before buying the system. OpenOffice may be a good alternative (and I use it on a regular basis), but a lot of students and businesses still rely on Microsoft Office for their day-to-day needs.
I can see your point, but I always thought that you could just take the shipped copy of Windows back if you didn't want to use it. I guess it varies between retailers.
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no, it's a terms and conditions thing, not a retailer thing. in principle, you can get a refund directly from microsoft, however they will try everything to delay this and put you off in practice, or so i have heard in previous years on this board from other users.
re: being unwittingly forced to pay for an O/S, the O/S is not equivalent to a hardware part, you might need to update the O/S many times over the lifetime of the computer (or you may want to). Software is not tangible, it is intellectual goods, unlike any hardware component.
re: building your own PC, that was fine back in the days when this was actually cheaper, but now it isn't. It's more expensive and it's more hassle. Plus, the door's closed for this when it comes to laptops. Still, i suppose the "don't like it? do it yourself!" argument is what i had started to get at, but i generally think it should be made easier, ie: give the customer what they actually want, not what they have been told they want. I mean this isn't a new issue. Since i have been using computers in my own home (about ten years) the preinstalled O/S ripoff has been totally normal. Hard drives in computers was a new thing in the early-mid nineties, it's fifteen years later now, and that's being charitable. The only reason more O/S choice isn't the norm is that the majority of home computer owners (ie: they are admins who think of themselves as users, if that) are perfectly willing to take whatever they're given (the latest MS bloatware at high cost) and the rest of us have to deal with the fallout.
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Maybe I was wrong earlier.
The EULA states that the software is separate from the hardware and you are entitled to a refund.
I've done a bit of research on the matter.
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7040 (http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7040)
http://www.linux.com/archive/articles/59381 (http://www.linux.com/archive/articles/59381)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_refund (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_refund)
I agree in principle, it seems silly to pay for an operating system you don't want and are never going to use.
It's probably worth a try complaining and demanding a refund but I wouldn't bother going to court over it.
I can cope with having to pay for Windows because it might be useful in a VM or to improve WINE compatibility. It's all the other bullshit like MS Works that would annoy me more than anything else. My current PC came with MS Works which was immediately removed and replaced with OpenOffice.org.
EDIT:
I've found a reasonable laptop without any software installed. I don't know how Linux compatible it is because they recommend genuine MS software, unless that's just a statement to discourage piracy.
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/173882 (http://www.ebuyer.com/product/173882)
If you're interested, check out the forum or give them a call.
http://forums.ebuyer.com/showthread.php?t=51208 (http://forums.ebuyer.com/showthread.php?t=51208)
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Is dell still selling Ubuntu-loaded computers?
I don't understand why that hasn't exploded to their full range of home computers. Is it early days or was it a flop in the end?
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random notes:
JooJoo looks sexy.
Google Chromium OS has high potential to change how we use computers imo, in years to come whos to say it wont be profitable for google to GIVE (not even rent) computers away? So that more people will use the web = more google users.
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I think consumer choice is a factor: most people want Windows pre-installed, believe it or not. Netbooks started to be sold with Linux pre-installed but people wanted Widows and Microsoft was happy to sell it as a reduced price for installing on low-spec. hardware.
The trouble is, there are plenty of plenty of people who want to buy computers without an operating system so they can install their own whether it be Linux, BSD or the Windows version of their choice.
I don't know whether Dell still offer a Linux option but it was offered on their low-end machines if I remember correctly so maybe it wasn't very popular?
The should offer the same machine with whatever OS the consumer wants, with the software they want, even if the majority of people choose Windows and MS Office.
I do agree that Microsoft has put unfair pressure on hardware manufacturers not to sell computers without an operating system, even though I agree that doing so would increase piracy. I don't think that buying a computer should also mean that you have to buy certain software. I think manufactures should ship with OpenOffice.org rather than MS Works more, I know that this is already done, my local computer shop already does this.
Maybe Google could give away refurbished PCs with their operating system pre-installed?
I don't think renting is a sane option because the cost of support could prove probative. Can you seriously imagine renting a PC to people who are clueless?
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It has been profitable in the past to "give" new computers away, but it usually entails locking the person in some kind of deal, like they have to keep the computer for X years and have to use the ISP that the company that sold them the computer told them to use. Obviously that ISP gave them kickbacks, which allowed them to give away the computers. I believe these PCs came pre-loaded with a ton of junk too, more so then your average Dell or HP.
My only issue with Chrome OS as far as I can tell, is that it is completely dependent on having a fast internet connection, and well is dependent on being connected to the internet in the first place - which would not work for me.
Apparently these Dell systems are the only ones that you can get Ubuntu with. http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/linux_3x?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs (http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/linux_3x?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs) Although I had to do quite a bit of digging to find them.
Edit: What the hell, if I go to the Dell main site, click Studio XPS 13, there is no option at all for Ubuntu. For Ubuntu to be available on the XPS 13, I seem to have to go through that special Ubuntu portal. Hilariously enough, it says "Dell Recommends Windows 7" on the Ubuntu page too.
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it's clearly microsoft influencing the market, either in acceptable ways, like flooding the market in terms of advertising and product as well as more questionable ways like deliberately targetting some standard or protocol simply so their own proprietary standard will become the "de facto", or even by using the old carrot-and-stick technique to ensure that retailers push microsoft products only.
but if it were a level playing field, then the consumer would get the choice of any OS, because software is intangible, the cost is a licencing cost, it makes no difference to the retailer whether you get a PC with ubuntu or one with MS Windows, no difference except perhaps the cut the retailer gets from the sale.