Stop Microsoft

All Things Microsoft => Microsoft Software => Topic started by: worker201 on 27 July 2006, 19:57

Title: An alien ate your computer
Post by: worker201 on 27 July 2006, 19:57

My dad called today because his computer ate shit and died for reasons unknown.  Of course he uses Windows XP, for circular reasons, and he is unopen to other possibilities.  The symptoms of his problem are documented here:
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=315311

Now, as you can read on that page, the cause of the problem is:

Quote

This issue may occur if the Isapnp.sys file is damaged or is not present in the path that the error message specifies.

wtf?  How does a file become damaged?  The computer was shut down properly last night, it was carried home in a safe bag (it's a laptop), and it sat quietly powered down all night.  This morning, restart failed.  This is the kind of shit that makes Microsoft ridiculous.  I've never had a file mysteriously disappear in OSX or Linux.  But it seems to happen all the time in Windows.

Although I was able to prevent Genuine Advantage from being installed on his other 2 computers, this one may have slipped past me.  Wonder if that has anything to do with it?  Meh, I'm probably just paranoid.

Note: I am not asking for Windows tech support.  I know how to repair the problem, and recover data if the problem is not repairable.  And I know how to install a real OS.  I'm just letting people know that this sort of thing really does happen, and with no apparent cause.  It's not just FUD, this is documented sucking.

Title: Re: An alien ate your computer
Post by: pofnlice on 27 July 2006, 21:11

mAXIMUS SUCKIMUS DUDICUS!!!

Title: Re: An alien ate your computer
Post by: H_TeXMeX_H on 27 July 2006, 23:38

You should hesitate to fix it for him ... tell him "I'll fix it, but in the meantime check out this Ubuntu CD" ... ok, well, maybe it won't work. Or tell him what you said here, this shit don't happen on anything but Window$. If it doesn't work either nothing will work, I couldn't get anyone in my family to switch, Window$ is a part of them, removing it would be like removing a critical organ ....

Title: Re: An alien ate your computer
Post by: worker201 on 28 July 2006, 00:57

It's hard to explain what makes an older guy (my dad is 66) stick with Windows.  Almost every daily function of OSX is easier, and almost any OS is more secure, but that's just jivetalkin as far as he's concerned.  I guess it would be probably true to say that (most) baby boomers are only allowed to learn one OS in their lives.  For my dad, that was Windows 3.1.  So getting new computers with 95, 98, or XP don't count, because they're the same on the outside.  His office computer tech told him to get a Mac, and I tried teaching him how to get around in Linux.  But something as simple as the Gnome desktop is totally foreign to him.

Think of it another way.  I know that if I want to run the web browser, I have to go find it and then somehow start it, usually by double-clicking.  I know that there are icons on my Gnome panel, in my Gnome Applications menu, and in various folders around the filesystem.  Plus, if I want, I can open a terminal and get the web browser that way, because I know where it is, I know what it is called (Firefox), and I know how to launch it from a command line.  So when I double-click a little picture of a fox circling a planet, I know basically what happens behind the scenes.

Contrast that to my dad, who only knows that if he double-clicks that picture on the desktop, the web browser magically appears.  If the desktop icon was gone, he wouldn't be able to open Firefox.  Even though it's in the Start Menu - well, maybe if he fucked around with it for awhile, he might get it to open that way.  And my dad knows that he's not really creating magic by double-clicking, he knows that the web browser (whatever its name is) is a program that he is running -- but that knowledge is divorced from his hand moving the mouse over an icon and clicking twice.

It's the same with your grandmother in the old Cadillac - she knows how to work the steering wheel and pedals, and she may even know that the car needs gasoline to run.  But she doesn't know why the car needs gasoline to run.  And she really doesn't need to in order to drive.  When the car doesn't work as advertised, you can see these people's thought processes: "the key is in the hole, and I turned it, and it doesn't start - is it the right key?"  Same with computers: "I double clicked it and nothing happened, better do it again".

Here we go, I just thought of the perfect way to explain it.  These people are unable to see below their current level of abstraction.  They're so engrossed in the user interface they can't see the machine.  And because of their ignorance, they mistake the user interface for the machine.

As long as this sort of metaphysical engineering continues, there will always be a market for neighborhood mechanics and Microsoft Windows.  Consider yourself fortunate that you have seen beyond the surface down to the next level or 2 - because it's clear that not everyone can do that.

Title: Re: An alien ate your computer
Post by: piratePenguin on 28 July 2006, 01:13

You can put icons on the desktop in GNOME. Drag them from the menu/panel onto the desktop and that's it done.

And you could try giving him that desktop environment designed to emulate Windows...

Title: Re: An alien ate your computer
Post by: hm_murdock on 28 July 2006, 17:31

What you have to do is figure out a way to make him feel like a moron. I've found that's the best/only way to make people switch.

Title: Re: An alien ate your computer
Post by: adiment on 28 July 2006, 19:41

Quote from: hm_murdock

What you have to do is figure out a way to make him feel like a moron. I've found that's the best/only way to make people switch.

That can work. However most people who can be made into morons also become afraid of change.

Maybe try an easy distro like Ubuntu? As piratePenguin said, you can have all the icons and unless your dad uses Windows for some special there is usually an alternative to most common programs; if not you can try Wine (or Crossover office, however most Linux fanboys are against it because it's commercial)

Title: Re: An alien ate your computer
Post by: piratePenguin on 28 July 2006, 20:04

Quote from: etement

(or Crossover office, however most Linux fanboys are against it because it's commercial)

Wine usually does the trick, when it doesn't then you should try crossover office (which I believe you have to pay for, so it's always better to try wine first). Using the non-free crossover office beats going back to Windows any day.

Title: Re: An alien ate your computer
Post by: Aloone_Jonez on 28 July 2006, 20:37

Quote from: worker201

It's hard to explain what makes an older guy (my dad is 66) stick with Windows.

Probably because he stick with what he feels comfortable with which is Windows, anything else looks foreign and older people tend to fear the unfamilure.

Title: Re: An alien ate your computer
Post by: GenuineAdvantage on 29 July 2006, 00:26

Meh. I'd rather lose system files than my user files. I have seen files disappear in linux. One time though, and it may have had something to do with copying a bunch of files over from windows using e2fs. I've stopped using it, the tool and windows, and only time will tell if that was the cause. I hope it was.

Title: Re: An alien ate your computer
Post by: worker201 on 29 July 2006, 00:41

Well, it seems like it wasn't really a system file that ate itself, but the hard drive dying.  It appears that we have full recovery, and a new laptop hard drive.  Lovely consumer shit, I suppose.  Personally, I wouldn't buy a Compaq laptop at Best Buy, but then it wasn't my decision to make.

During the rebuilding of the system, I was asked to download 49! Windows updates.  One of which was the Genuine Advantage crap, so I only installed 48! updates.

Also, FYI, it has been made clear to me that there will be NO changing Operating Systems, and THAT's FINAL.  Alrighty then.  As I explained earlier, I guess I understand.

Title: Re: An alien ate your computer
Post by: hm_murdock on 29 July 2006, 01:35

Did you mock him?

"Dew wiw be no changing of oberatin syschums and dat iz teh fynal"

Title: Re: An alien ate your computer
Post by: GenuineAdvantage on 29 July 2006, 03:00

That's what you get when bothering to mention wiping the windows. I never bother, I just throw in a Limited Account and vaguely mention that it's safer. If they ask why I'll answer, but usually it they don't. Screw people, they're on their own. If they ask for help regularly after disregarding advice, I'll do it when I do it. My dad did want linux installed though, strangely enough.

Title: Re: An alien ate your computer
Post by: mobrien_12 on 29 July 2006, 03:32

ISAPNP.... very strange considering that windows XP dropped support for the ISA bus and so would have absolutely no need for an ISA PNP system.

Windows 2000, however would.

I guess this is just one more example of how the MSOS is kludged from it's previous versions.

Title: Re: An alien ate your computer
Post by: worker201 on 30 July 2006, 00:45

Quote from: mobrien_12

ISAPNP.... very strange considering that windows XP dropped support for the ISA bus and so would have absolutely no need for an ISA PNP system.

Windows 2000, however would.

I guess this is just one more example of how the MSOS is kludged from it's previous versions.

So probably they removed the functionality, but some other internal framework called it, probably for future functionality that was cancelled.  So rather than rewrite the functions that called it for no apparent reason, they left a deprecated file in their core code base.  And even though it has no real function, it's still a required system file.

That's fucking ridiculous.

Title: Re: An alien ate your computer
Post by: hm_murdock on 30 July 2006, 02:40

Microsoft Bollocks XP! Just like I said.

Title: Re: An alien ate your computer
Post by: Duo Maxwell on 30 July 2006, 06:38

I've found that when waiting on a replacement part or some other such shit for a comp, that if I "forget" to remove a live CD that they will use linux and not even know that they are doing so. The Linspire live 5.0 CD is the one I usually leave lol.

Title: Re: An alien ate your computer
Post by: Calum on 30 July 2006, 14:17

my dad's fifty five. he learnt how to use windows and ms office pretty in depth at the local college, but he doesn't own a computer, and when he's round here he doesn't seem to have any problems using my computer. to him the choice of OS is something that isn't important, in fact it's a choice i'm not even sure he's aware of, but that doesn't stop him being able to use other OSs with equal ease to windows.

i think this "windows is easy" stuff is not only because people have "learnt" one OS (ie: windows) first, but because they have a mental block about it too, mainly. my dad doesn't have this mental block because he's not really interested in which OS he's using if the programs work in it for him. i'm just using this as an example not only of how age doesn't really matter here, but also that people who are not too well versed in non windows OSs really don't have too many problems nowadays when it comes to using them.

PS: i know 55 is not the same as 68, but my dad didn't even really use computers at work till he was about 40 etc (not windows ones of course! it'd be mainframe or something i think, with remote terminals) so the principle is roughly the same.

by the way worker, your explanation about the cadillac et cetera was very good, well done, a quality piece of writing. that's the sort of thing that should be collected on some sort of best of" area on the forums for posterity.

Quote

if not you can try Wine (or Crossover office, however most Linux fanboys are against it because it's commercial)

actually it's because it sucks ass. it's incredibly fiddly to set up, and it doesn't work properly with most programs, and when it does it's slowly and unpredictably. with these things in mind it is hardly the best choice to convince a windows user that linux has all the best programs for them to switch to. the wine configuration alone would be enough to turn off any windows user for life. if somebody wants to use a windows program, they should use it in windows (oh! blasphemy!), simple as that.

Title: Re: An alien ate your computer
Post by: Calum on 30 July 2006, 14:24

and another thing:

if isa support is gone in xp, then how is a person supposed to use their perfectly good isa sound cards etc? fedora linux (and many others) support these just fine. and what benefit is the user seeing by dropping the support? if other things in the OS still have the ISA etc dependencies then there's no disk space saving, although this is negligible anyway with new versions of windows since they are so huge regardless. It makes no sense, why drop ISA support when there's no saving in space, speed or functionality?

is it just because it's "old"? to my knowledge nobody has found anything wrong with the ISA specification so in my opinion being old is no excuse, if it works, and there's no cost to continuing support, then what is their f*!$

Title: Re: An alien ate your computer
Post by: toadlife on 31 July 2006, 01:24

Windows XP does support ISA cards. What they don't support is non plug-n-pray ISA cards. So if your ISA card is plug-n-pray it will work with XP - hence the filename "ISAPNP.SYS"

Someone asked, "how can a file become corrupted"? In the vast majority of cases where I've seen a file become corrupted in Windows, the problem has been bad sectors. I would suggets doing a chkdsk /r on the boot drive of your dad's computer. Another cause can be faulty memory and/or motherboard components that cause writes to disk to become corrupted. My money is on bad sectors though.

Title: Re: An alien ate your computer
Post by: pofnlice on 31 July 2006, 08:49

Can I just say...

He just said that!

Quote from: "Worker201"

Well, it seems like it wasn't really a system file that ate itself, but the hard drive dying.

and you saw someone asked this question...

Quote from: "toadlife"

Someone asked, "how can a file become corrupted"?

I usually just pay them off until they become dirty....then I exploit them.
No, really. Windows files can bcome corrupted by a lot more common incidents than a hd going bad. Many of the malwares and viruses going around now do just that. Windows also has on occaision just decided not to copy a portion of, or a complete program during install or update. OK maybe we can blame that on faulty disk or the upgrade was right...but it still could result in the same thing...making your computer as corrupt as the white house.

Title: Re: An alien ate your computer
Post by: toadlife on 31 July 2006, 09:26

Quote from: pofnlice

Can I just say...

He just said that!

Sorry. I failed to read the whole thread thouroughly. I got sick of the "OMG Microsoft doesn't support ISA, therefore they are evil" crap and skimmed through.

Title: Re: An alien ate your computer
Post by: worker201 on 31 July 2006, 20:29

Quote from: toadlife

Sorry. I failed to read the whole thread thouroughly. I got sick of the "OMG Microsoft doesn't support ISA, therefore they are evil" crap and skimmed through.

I'm pretty sure nobody said that.  It was postulated that ISA support was deprecated in Windows XP, and then reasons were speculated.  If you are correct that only nonPNP ISA support is deprecated, then M'Obrien's post was somewhat misleading, which led to untrue conclusions.  Please take the time to read each post before replying.  And if it's not too much fucking trouble, try to comprehend them too.

Title: Re: An alien ate your computer
Post by: Calum on 31 July 2006, 21:10

well i certainly didn't say any of that moronic crap. i agree, anybody who is replying to some comments should at least familiarise themselves with what the comments actually say in the first place.

Title: Re: An alien ate your computer
Post by: mobrien_12 on 7 August 2006, 01:54

I have been under a very very strong impression that ISA support, not just the non PNP, was scrapped from XP.  I have understood this since a year before XP was launched.  Reasoning for this was that ISA bus is damned slow, XP is fucking bloated and wouldn't be running on many systems with ISA boards anyway, and scrapping ISA support simplifies the kernel and speeds things up (one of the reasons to drop it from custom Linux kernel compiles if your MB doesn't have it, BTW).  Apparently I didn't get the whole story.

The fact that the hard drive was dying was the root cause.  The isapnp file was corrupted due to the hard disk dying, which created the symptom listed above.  

My statement, which appears to be erroneous, was that this was evidence that MS had critical legacy file requirements in it's code that were actually unnecessary.  This would be further evidence of MS crappy coding practices.

ISAPNP is apparently used, not a true vestigal file, so the hard disk corrupting the file leads to a legitimate crash.

Title: Re: An alien ate your computer
Post by: worker201 on 7 August 2006, 02:48

It's a really sad statement about Microsoft's reputation that we would be extremely ready to believe that there were unnecessary system files retained in the OS.  I'm sure there are still (even sadder), but I think we've cleared up any mystery surrounding this particular one.

Title: Re: An alien ate your computer
Post by: jtpenrod on 14 August 2006, 17:29

"It's a really sad statement about Microsoft's reputation that we would be extremely ready to believe that there were unnecessary system files retained in the OS."

And they have worked very hard to earn that reputation.