Stop Microsoft
Miscellaneous => Programming & Networking => Topic started by: pkd_lives on 10 January 2003, 02:03
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Right this may or may not be the right place, so bear with me, if its wrong I'm sure a moderator will shift it.
How do I go about setting up a website?
Oh my god you are now saying to yourself, I cannot believe someone is this dumb, well I have never had anything to do with the Internet at this level so I'm learning.
I have been donated a PII 233 with 240MB of RAM, and 8GB HDD the only problem is it has the old large style PS/2 connector for the keyboard. Now last time I just removed the connector and put a small one in it's place so I can resolve this issue (or buy a fitting keyboard or adaptor). I want to set this up as a website for some friends, and I need to know how (I don't want to get ripped off).
I have ransacked the Linux Documentation Project. And will be using that to teach myself how to set up Apache for the server, and how to do lots of other stuff that I need to do in Linux. It's not the actual learning that is going to prove difficult, and I need to locate a HTML tutorial (I know NOTHING about web design). I doubt any of this will give me troubles.
What I need is a breakdown of how it all works, the different options, etc. basically I want to do it all myself, have this computer feeding one two or several sites. And I want to own the .com, .net, whatever, so where do I get these. Again it is the theory I'm after here. Does this make sense to anyone, and can anyone help me, I am feeling incredibly stupid right now?
Or help by offering the right types of keywords, so I can search google more efficiently would be helpful. Now the answer maybe that I will learn this stuff if I just read all the way through say the Apache manual, well that is fine just let me know.
Why have I not found this out myself, the trouble is searching google for net related stuff brings up page upon page of chaff - now I'm an engineer I don't read dummies guides because I know they will not teach me what I need to know, such simplistic guides rarely satisfy the deep craving for knowledge that constantly pounds around my head, begging me - feed me information, feed me information, feed me information.
So any pointers in the right direction would more than satisfy. Like I say it's the theory of how the net works, how I set up a server and feed into it. This info has probably been posted before, but I can't find it through searches on this forum.
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well.. you want this computer to run a website. Therefore the computer will be called a webserver. I am running mine on an old P MMX so its not like you need a real top of teh line computer for a website that gets litttle traffic.
I would tell you a lot more but i have to go right now.
How fast is your internet?
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Thanks MoR, I had to go as well - It was Pie Baking time. So I should be searching for setting up a webserver?.
My connection is DSL, so not terrific on upstream I know. But this site will be for some local musicians, and I don't expect heavy traffic, this is as much a teach myself how, I have a few others who are interested in having a website (more poor musicians doing it for the love of their art).
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so do you want info about all of the following things?
1) setting up a server from home
2) configuring your firewall for a server
3) setting up a domain name to point to your machine
4) writing html/php/perl/xhtml and so on
5) embedding video, forms and web applications into websites
6) maintaining an email server
7) actually designing a website correctly so it will display well on as many systems as possible, is easy to understand and will not make people want to leave your site
Now i know little to nothing about most of those, and ordinarily i would say ask MoR, since he has done all the setting up/domain name stuff himself, but i was just posting to try and break down the things you might want to do into more easily digestible sized chunks, you know that old riddle: Q. how do you eat an elephant? A. one bite at a time...
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for the domain name i would google for 'domain name registration' and look for a good price. basically all the people who will sell you domain names are agents and they all tack on their own percentage, so compare and contrast. And for html, i suggest going to w3c.org as your starting point.
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I'm no Apache expert but, at its most basic level, there's really nothing to running a webserver. You just put all all the files comprising your website under the directory specified by the 'DocumentRoot' (should be something like /var/www by default) in the Apache main config file /etc/httpd/conf/httpd.conf (that path may vary) and start the httpd service.
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Thank you, that is what I need. And you should not really say you know nothing about these things, after all you have a website all of your own, and that is essentially where I want to get to.
Yes yours seems to be a good methodology, and that is kind of what I need. Like I say I don't want point and click just guidance.
The whole domain name thing is kind of scary, but I'll just dive in. Thanks for those starting tips.
I am going to be reading deeply of Apache thanks Flap, but I do have a question I have heard of this program called Tux that apparently runs commands within kernel memory space or something, making it a lot faster. Would you suggest I learn Apache first or even touch this other stuff (at my beginner status at least). In fact is Tux even a really viable option?
[ January 10, 2003: Message edited by: Linux Frank ]
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You can get a host name on several predefined domains for free from http://www.dyndns.org/ (http://www.dyndns.org/) which is where I got my voidmain.kicks-ass.net name (although I did give them a donation because I have several host names from them but it's not necessary). So in effect it will not cost you a penny more than what you are already paying your cable/dsl provider. Just point that host name to the IP address of your Linux server, set up the httpd.conf for Apache according to that name and IP address and stick in your web site content (usually under /var/www/html by default on some distros, just look at the DocumentRoot directory in the httpd.conf as mentioned above).
Many distributions come with Apache configurations that will work right out of the box with no changes (other than starting the service). My web site took all of 10 minutes to set up (and it shows) not accounting for the amount of time it took me to write the content (also not long as you can see).
Now, there is a little more to it if you want your web site to work for any length of time. You really need to take security into account so as not to get owned. You should set up a firewall and only expose the necessary ports and you should apply any security updates to the software you do have exposed (apache, ssl, ssh, etc, etc). And if you have services other than apache exposed you should restrict them to specific IP addresses or ranges if possible at the firewall (like don't allow ssh access in from anywhere). I call that "minimizing risk".
[ January 10, 2003: Message edited by: void main ]
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alright. You might want to first try looking at security before you even setup a website but remember that if your site isnt working try turning off all the firewall stuff to see if it is blocking it. I wrote my own firewall in IPTABLES which i think i posted most of but void thinks its to paranoid. (just because i'm paranoid doesnt mean they're not out to get me).
Then Make sure that you have only the services that are necassary running and have them configured properly to not let internet traffic to things you dont want to be public.
If you install apache with the OS then it should be setup pretty good. And will be almost the same on most Linux(es)
You will need to change a couple things in the httpd.conf Like the server name. If your site doesnt work on the internet at first you might want to try and run it on another port since many ISPs are now blocking web traffic to port 80. I am running mine on 8000.
I'm not sure how fast CGI or PERL will run on a 266 its slow on mine but i got 32MB of RAM and 200MHz.
Do you want email for people too? If you dont then you might want to take off (or at least shutoff) sendmail. And if you do want email you might want to switch to Qmail i believe it is supposed to be more secure than sendmail, in fact they offer $500 to anyone that has can hack it (or has had there's hacked i think).
If you are providing space for other peoples websites, how would you like for them to upload stuff? FTP? I use proftp and i find it to be really good. But you must make sure you edit /etc/ftpusers to deny any system users and anonymous connections.
the domains, you could do what void said or you could go to http://www.tk (http://www.tk) and get a www.domain.tk (http://www.domain.tk) that points to your IP with no ads for free. Or you could pay $5 and get a fuckmicrosoft domain that points to your IP (i have one). Or http://has.it (http://has.it) can give you one like http://mor.rocks.it (http://mor.rocks.it) for free.
[ January 10, 2003: Message edited by: The Master of Reality / Bob ]
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Wow, all that is incredibly helpful.
I have found w3c.org to be a great site for the basics of writing a website, and I shall start there. First things first I shall write up the site, in a basic format, at least. And then I shall see about putting things on the net. This may take a while, but I'll get there slowly.
I already have some questions about networking, but I have a fair bit of literature to read and need some practice time so I will wait until I have filled in some knowledge gaps.
Thanks for the moment.
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setting up apache on my OpenBSD server took me 10 minutes, 5 to figure out if httpd was installed by default and 5 to configure it, read the docs a few times and read the conf file, it should be a well documented file unlike a few others. and easy to setup up for a small site. and make sure that you use an obscure port if you are hosting it under a cable modem. im fuxxored if the cable nazis catch wind.....
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If you're using RH, read this: http://tille.soti.org/training/linux/book1.html (http://tille.soti.org/training/linux/book1.html)
Also, read this: http://tldp.org/LDP/solrhe/Securing-Optimizing-Linux-The-Ultimate-Solution-v2.0.pdf (http://tldp.org/LDP/solrhe/Securing-Optimizing-Linux-The-Ultimate-Solution-v2.0.pdf)
And install this: http://www.bastille-linux.org/ (http://www.bastille-linux.org/)
OR
This: http://forum.rackshack.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14401 (http://forum.rackshack.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14401)
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quote:
Originally posted by The Master of Reality / Bob:
I wrote my own firewall in IPTABLES which i think i posted most of but void thinks its to paranoid. (just because i'm paranoid doesnt mean they're not out to get me).
I can't imagine I would have ever said you were too paranoid. I don't believe you can be too paranoid about security. And I actually have 2 firewalls in a double layer of security, one of which also uses iptables. Some might consider that to be paranoid. Most Linux firewall configurations use iptables. It's how you configure it that counts.
[ January 10, 2003: Message edited by: void main ]
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You don't need to set up all these fancie-shamncie servers and stuff. If it's going to be a small website for a band, just use Angelfire or something. After you get an Angelfire account the rest is pretty self-explanitory. Keep your images in your images folder and all the rest of your pages in their own directories. If you're struggling with HTML, just go to funky-chickens.com and copy and paste the codes there until you have them memorized. If you're going to start a business, do all that fancy stuff, but in your case just keep it simple.
[ January 11, 2003: Message edited by: Macman: Mac Tro0per / boB ]
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Are you are going to run this at your house or office on some type of high speed connection such as cable or DSL? If so, here are a two other things you will need to consider. One is whether you will have a static IP address and two is whether or not your ISP will allow you to host a website on it for the level of service you are on. To explain further.
When you purchase your domain (such as yourcompany.com), you will need to have someone setup DNS to point www.yourcompany.com (http://www.yourcompany.com) to an IP address. The IP address is like a mailing address and tells other computers where to go on the internet. DNS is used to convert the friendly names such as www.yourcompany.com (http://www.yourcompany.com) to an IP address. Some registrars have DNS services built in, such as register.com. Many people will have their ISP do it for them, often at a price.
Some ISPs give their users static IP addresses, as in they won't change. It will be assigned to your location and will identify you on the Internet. Most ISPs will give out dynamic IP addresses for their residential customers. In that scenario they will have a pool of IP addresses and you will be assigned one every time you login or connect to the Internet. Those can and will change.
Typically you will be hard coding the www.mycompany.com (http://www.mycompany.com) to a specific IP address in your DNS service. To do that you will have to make sure you have one that doesn't change. Many ISPs will offer (incorrectly named) business class services on DSL or cable that will give you a static IP address.
If can't afford that or it isn't available and you have a dynamic IP address, then you will need to use a dynamic DNS service, such as dyndns.org. Those will be setup so that something called the time to live (or TTL) is very short. This makes other DNS servers not cache the data for a very long time. It will require more lookups to your DNS provider, but with that you can safely change IP addresses and not have to wait a day for the rest of the Internet to know about it. You will then run some type of client on your computer that will automatically tell DNS service if you have a new IP address.
Finally, I've been told by some friends that some ISPs (Time Warner specifically) will block port 80 from their residential users to the Internet. What that basically means is that you will have your webserver up and running, but the rest of the Internet will not be able to connect to it. You will need to call your ISP to find out if that is true in your case. IF so, then you may need to upgrade to a business service to allow you to host the site.
As an easy alternative, however, you could purchase a webhosting service from an outside company. They will have webservers setup at their location, usually with a very fast connection to the Internet. On each machine they will host multiple websites. You will be given a space to place all your files and some method of uploading the files, such as FTP or Frontpage. You will pay a fee of something like $20/month for the service. In that scenario, you will only need to create the website and upload it to their servers.
Hope that helps
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obviously I didn't read all the posts above fully as I saw you had stated it was on a DSL line.
sorry
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quote:
Originally posted by void main:
I can't imagine I would have ever said you were too paranoid. I don't believe you can be too paranoid about security. And I actually have 2 firewalls in a double layer of security, one of which also uses iptables. Some might consider that to be paranoid. Most Linux firewall configurations use iptables. It's how you configure it that counts.
[ January 10, 2003: Message edited by: void main ]
well... you said "why dont you just go with the webmin default firewall" or something among those lines.
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quote:
Originally posted by The Master of Reality / Bob:
well... you said "why dont you just go with the webmin default firewall" or something among those lines.
I believe I said that Webmin is an excellent graphical way to configure your firewall but I don't believe it has a default (well maybe it does). It's a pretty detailed utility that can configure everything you probably need to configure and it's not going to be any less secure by configuring iptables through Webmin than via a script. I would especially recommend it for newer users but it is very useful for us old hats as well. I did it in a script for years but now use webmin. Having said that, you still need to know what you are doing and understand firewalls and rules before even the Webmin way will be of much use to you.
[ January 12, 2003: Message edited by: void main ]
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This thread is producing some very useful information. I am not moving that fast on this as of course it is as much a learning project for me, and it is to be fun in a learning kind of way. So bare with me if I respond very slowly to this thread - thanks.
However so that you can more understand my thoughts. I have inherited a PII 233 with 240+MB of Ram, and an 8GHz hard drive. Now it seems a waste to have this doing nothing (it was donated as a internet/e-mail machine however we are all set for this at the moment). I don't want it to go to waste, and as I need to add some strings to my bow career wise I though it would be a good idea to see if I could set up a website, with a webserver. Others have mindessly chatted about this to me, and there are several projects down the road that could come of this. More computers and more possible websites.
Essentially a local group (not really making money, just covering costs at this stage) could do with a web site, and I would like the challenge of setting it up. So that is what I want to do. Now I have DSL from Verizon so I should probably see what they can do for me as reqards the static IP (which is what Verizon give as far as I know) and allowing me to host a website. If the cost is little more then fine however if it is dramatically more than it may not happen. I want complete control, in as much as I can get it. So using other hosting services kind of negates the purpose, although a colo would maybe offer a solution I could live with, but it is the nteworking and server setup that I really really want to learn and understand, the website stuff is just useful tools.
Anyway thanks for that good stuff so far. I have a lot to do on this and will play with it as and when time is allowing.
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well, I set up my webserver without consulting with my ISP. I have a static IP on cable internet. My ISP blocks web traffic to port 80, so i am running my webserver on port 8000. The only thing it has cost me is the price of cable internet.
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quote:
Originally posted by The Master of Reality / Bob:
well, I set up my webserver without consulting with my ISP. I have a static IP on cable internet. My ISP blocks web traffic to port 80, so i am running my webserver on port 8000. The only thing it has cost me is the price of cable internet.
Same here...I want to make my own browser that accesses 80 first, then tries 8000. It would be heaven for everyone like us.
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but not everyone runs their webserver on 8000 if they cant on port 80.
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im sitting here at work, looking for a new host for our website, and it dawned on me. Our provider was kind enough to give us 5 static ip addresses. So why bother hosting on someone elses server when i can do it here. I have a machine to play with, would redHat8 be a decent direction? What exactly do i need? and where would i go to find a good source about setting up the security?? thanks.
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quote:
Originally posted by Linux Frank:
However so that you can more understand my thoughts. I have inherited a PII 233 with 240+MB of Ram, and an 8GHz hard drive. Now it seems a waste to have this doing nothing (it was donated as a internet/e-mail machine however we are all set for this at the moment). I don't want it to go to waste, and as I need to add some strings to my bow career wise I though it would be a good idea to see if I could set up a website, with a webserver. Others have mindessly chatted about this to me, and there are several projects down the road that could come of this. More computers and more possible websites.
Shit man, an 8Ghz Hard Disk, is that some new technology? ;)
Ignore me, im just taking the piss.
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...it's the latest in compression techniques...
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quote:
Originally posted by Xyle: iGeek...:
im sitting here at work, looking for a new host for our website, and it dawned on me. Our provider was kind enough to give us 5 static ip addresses. So why bother hosting on someone elses server when i can do it here. I have a machine to play with, would redHat8 be a decent direction? What exactly do i need? and where would i go to find a good source about setting up the security?? thanks.
I use slackware for my server.... i upgraded to slackware from redhat.
security.......hmmmm *digs through files*... i'm probably not supposed to host this file but i'll put it up for you ppl to dl anyway. Its an 855 page PDF about securing Linux... http://chatroom.fuckmicrosoft.com:8000/lard/securing_and_optimizing_linux.pdf (http://chatroom.fuckmicrosoft.com:8000/lard/securing_and_optimizing_linux.pdf)
[ January 16, 2003: Message edited by: The Master of Reality / Bob ]
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Thanks. id like to print it, but at 855 pages, its not going to happen. Looks like a good read though.
Thanks again
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Thank-you MoR.
Edit : Add these comments.
Those appendixes are very very interesting, I shall be reading this in detail, and I may shifty on over and buy a copy if this ever becomes a going concern for me.
[ January 16, 2003: Message edited by: Linux Frank ]
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you might also want to find a hacker(or cracker) guide somewhere... the best way to make sure your system is secure from hackers is to be a hacker/cracker to your own system and know what crackers will try to do. I will try to find a link to a good one (that i already have).
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rootwars.org which runs hacker wargames has some documentation on security. here are a few on tactics used (http://rootwars.org/papers/security/tactics.html)
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Well I fucking did it, ha. Except that it is on port 8000 :( and I have to learn html because the site looks really really shite, and I have to see if this project is going to happen, and I have to get security and stuff set up, so lots of real intense learning going on now. But thanks
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right on. i wish i had a static ip address, then i could at least try to get a web server up.
what is the address of your site, maybe i couldhelp with the design. im always looking for some way to expand my skill as an artist (not that i consider corporate art real art, but whatever, you can still do dope shit for a shitty corp site)
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I don't have a static IP, but read through Voids' post earlier on and you will find a way to do it, I just have DSL with a changing IP, although I don't think I have the client working properly, you can update manually easily enough.
It is now down (that project is kind of on hold) and I am now working on a different site for someone, who is a musician, and it's not really that coporate, after all it is just trying to make a living.
It's just projects I am working on, and all of it for free, I get to see this stuff being performed, which is a barter system, which I much prefer, so I help someone out, and I get free entertainment of high quality music.
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you should not get on the internet with linux because linux sends all of your data and info to linus trovalds
i am an imposter and my ip is 66.119.33.170
of course it is a proxy like all my other IP addresses, my real name is Walt however. I do hope you get the chance to meet me one day so you can shove my cowardly little teeth down my throat in person.
[ January 21, 2003: Message edited by: Calum ]
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He has provided me with a great OS that is more capable than M$s' offering, and it is for free, I certainly don't object if he knows who I am.
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there should be a way to stop people from using the same name on these forums.
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quote:
Originally posted by Xyle: iGeek...:
there should be a way to stop people from using the same name on these forums.
your right.
void recomended www.dyndns,org (http://www.dyndns,org) for dynamic IPs, there is also www.no-ip.com (http://www.no-ip.com)
[ January 20, 2003: Message edited by: The Master of Reality / Bob ]
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quote:
Originally posted by The Master of Reality / Bob:
your right.
void recomended www.dyndns,org (http://www.dyndns,org) for dynamic IPs, there is also www.no-ip.com (http://www.no-ip.com)
[ January 20, 2003: Message edited by: The Master of Reality / Bob ]
i setup an account with dyndns.org. I am going to go through that pdf document. starting tonight. I have a question about the setup of my home network..
this is how it is setup now. i have all of my machines and the dsl router connected to my 5 port switch. is the way i have it setup now going to be a problem when i setup a webserver. it seems like it is going to, but i don't know. Should i steup a machine with two ethernet adapters in it, and have the dsl go to one, and then have the switch connected to the other. and then share the internet connection from the server??
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meh fuck harddisk, build a 300gb array of ddr held up by batteries.
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quote:
Originally posted by Calum:
[QB]you should not get on the internet with linux because linux sends all of your data and info to linus trovalds
i am an imposter and my ip is 66.119.33.170
of course it is a proxy like all my other IP addresses, my real name is Walt however. I do hope you get the chance to meet me one day so you can shove my cowardly little teeth down my throat in person.
who's "linus trovalds", fucktard?
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hey calum, did ya notice how everyone else seemed to ignore his post and still posted soemthing with relevance to the thread?
and xyle, the internet goes through a dsl router then through a switch then to the computers? Does the DSL router have a built-in firewall? I know the router i installed at my work had a builtin firewall but you could tell it to forward certain ports so you could easily run a web/mail/dns/etc. server behind it.
[ January 21, 2003: Message edited by: The Master of Reality / Bob ]
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Why do you stupid bastards think that I am the guy who is impersonating your sorry asses? Keep this in mind. I work and I have a real life(friends, g/f's and other shit to do that is more important than fucking with you dorks). To make a long story short, I do not have time for you people.
If you really think you have something on me, come on over to Terre Haute, Indiana in the USA and we will see whats up. If you ever decide you want to come here just PM me or send me an E-Mail and I will gladly give you a place to meet me at(Calum). Be warned, I will have some of my dawgs with me for backup in case you decide to bring some of your nerdy ass friends. If you do show up alone I will send my nigga's on thier way and I will beat your mother fucking ass until you aren't going to get up.
I get tired of you weak ass bitches. Fuck off unless you really want some. Mother fuckers.
BTW, did you ever take your time to think that it could be RRS, Flaming Bag of Poo or one of the other MS supporters who is impersonating your worthless asses? Who knows, it could even be some person who has never posted in this forum with a legit name. Maybe the guy just gets a kick out of seeing you guys trip. :LOL:
[ January 21, 2003: Message edited by: Zombie9920 ]
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It must be zombie, becuase otherwise he would not care. He is afraid we will expose him!
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quote:
Originally posted by X11:
It must be zombie, becuase otherwise he would not care. He is afraid we will expose him!
Really, if it was me I would take credit for it because quite frankly, I think it is hilarious. The imposter has done a really good job of pissing you guys off. I think he has done a better job of getting a rise out of you guys than I did. He/She has caused you guys to talk about leaving the forums a few times(something that I have never accomplished).
If I could rate the imposter I would give him a 5 star. To the imposter, "Keep up the good work". (http://smile.gif)
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Zombie you low life goto your own forums.
Really we know its you.
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well. its not exactly pissing anyone off. most people are just ignoring him and keeping at teh topic at hand.
speaking of the topic. i was going through that PDF doc last night (nothing better to do, its a monday night) and realized that i really do not need to spend my time on it. it would be cool to understand how to setup a secure linux server. but i have too many projects and things to focus on. these computers are taking up too much of my time as it is.
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Learn as you go. I do not have time for Security at the moment, but by learning the HTML stuff and getting a site functional, I get free tickets to concerts where I get to hear good music, it's barter, I learn enough to make the value for tickets balance, of course I also get to hear of events because of this, and that is how I go along, when someone needs to have security on their site, then I will learn that, of course I have to find time in my life, which is hard work even without the computer stuff, but it's worthwhile.
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Hmmm im gonna get Zombie banned by the webmaster, parhaps then entire joink network.
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if i am going to keep at this it will have to stay a hobby. I would rather foucs on my art, which i have lost sight of. and not just stupid photoshop, but my oil painting technique sucks now, my watercolor technique sucks. i am drawing a blank in my sketch book. getting my skill back is more important right now. so linux stays a hobby for me. (not that i consider linux a hobby os, from what little i have learned, linux r0x0rz joo p4ntz! ;) !)
i am trying to get a web page up right now. i have a very basic (read: ugly) design right now, i have to work on that. i would like to keep it accesible for dial-up also. i have a hard time doing that ;) . I also have a personal site going up. this is something that i would like to have a web server for, then i can test things a little easier, and im not limited to X mbs. unless redHat 8 can do it right out of the box??? then i can worry about understanding security later.
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quote:
Originally posted by X11: Doing YA MUM:
Hmmm im gonna get Zombie banned by the webmaster, parhaps then entire joink network.
yeah right. keep flapping your mouth off. it won't happen. and this sort of shit is wasted in what started out a perfectly good topic (something i see very little of on this board these days).
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Xyle - that is the way it's meant to be, computers can be used to enhance life, I have a deeper interest because I'm an engineer, but you should learn enough to put up a site of your own, then you have somewhere to showcase your work, which will inspire you, or at the very least force you to create something out of embarassement of having nothing new ;)
And that is part of what I like about Linux, I can do it so easily and so well, without spending a lot of money, pirating software or having to hire stuff from big corporations (well except for the access, and I am starting to look into seeing how I can set up myself as a provider, to myself if nothing else, however that is not in anyway promising.)
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true true.
quote:
im quoting myslef: isnt that wierd ;)
I have a question about the setup of my home network..
this is how it is setup now. i have all of my machines and the dsl router connected to my 5 port switch. is the way i have it setup now going to be a problem when i setup a webserver. it seems like it is going to, but i don't know. Should i steup a machine with two ethernet adapters in it, and have the dsl go to one, and then have the switch connected to the other. and then share the internet connection from the server??
any suggestions??
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i dont know much about switches but why would it block webserver traffic?
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not that it would block traffic, but if i have 3 machines and my dsl router all plugged into a switch, wouldnt that leave my systems at risk?? it just seems kinda open.
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Put a gateway in is my advice.
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nevermind. its working.,
[ February 12, 2003: Message edited by: Xyle: iGeek... ]
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cut it out like the headlights flashing cut it out.