Stop Microsoft
Operating Systems => Not Quite Mainstream OSes => Topic started by: billy_gates on 23 September 2003, 04:17
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Jimmy, The Quirk, Psyjax, and I have decided that it is time for a linux based OS to drop its linux heritage. Look at our ideas here:
www.skinner.com/jeffberg/next.html (http://www.skinner.com/jeffberg/next.html)
(note from Orethrius: link is dead, no forwarding address)
I will add a more official list later when I have time, but this is just a quick verbal sketch of what we want.
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bringing it to the top
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Is this only going to run on PPC chips?
or do want it to be like linux and cover many architectures?
Even if it can't run Mac Programs I think an OS setup like OSX would be great
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It doesn't matter if it has a Darwin core. Darwin is also ported to x86 by Apple, so that doesn't matter.
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we plan on x86 first.
The only problem with starting with darwin is that it doesn't run on AMD CPU's.... yet.
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I still think using Linux would be best. The other guys kinda wanna jump in head first with some of these ideas, like a single system folder, but I think taking it incrementally would be better... like building a new graphics framework.
X11 has been around forever and it's well documented and all, but it's also hopelessly outdated. We want to build a full Ghostscript or PDF-based desktop compositor that renders with OpenGL, much like Apple's Quartz Extreme does. Our working name for it is "NQ" for Not Quartz. Priority goes to video cards that are capable of running the GL-based renderer. Other cards will have to wait until a generic display-Ghostscript engine is built. But, since most machines today have cards that are capable of this (a notable exception is anything with a Rage128 series GPU. the R128 is incapable of textures that are not power-of-two sizes. 32, 64, 128, et cetera)
X11 compatibility will be implemented via a "classic mode". X11 apps would run alongside apps that use NQ but wouldn't be able to take advantage of any of NQ's advanced features.
The desktop will be built from WindowMaker and GWorkspace (the oss version of the NeXT Workspace manager). In the beginning, we'll simply use WM and GWorkspace as they are, and leave all the UI work until the end. We have no plans for what the desktop or the system's overall appearance will be like yet. If anybody is an interface designer, we'd love to have you on board. I've got a number of ideas to share on the subject, if you'd like to hear 'em.
As for the folder structure, it seems better to do it a little at a time, and start with this structure,
/private (this contains the typical UNIX folders like /bin and /var. there are invisible symlinks to these inside of /)
/Applications
/System/Library
/Library
~/Library
In the end, this is what we'd like to have, though
/Applications
/System
/Library
/private
~/Preferences
With NeXT/OS X, there is a private Library folder inside of ~/ which can contain DIFFERENT things from the System/Library folder and /Library. I think that, honestly, for most people, this can be improved.
By keeping only application-specific preference files and the like (mailbox files, browser caches, UI options, et cetera) inside ~/Preferences using XML files, the way NeXT and OS X do, all of that is separated fully from the OS. In the event of a failure if you have to reinstall, the whole OS is in /System and can be replaced rather easily.
/Applications contains the major applications used by the OS. MP3 Apps, and junk like that. Command line apps don't belong here. They go in /system/private/bin.
Legacy (Linux/X11) apps would also end up in their proper place inside /System/private/.
Apps built for this OS would be contained in .app packages. The binary, and all support files that are needed are inside the package. You'll never see anything ilke
/lib/libexorugal.lib.so not found
The higher-level parts of the OS and the apps will use APIs, frameworks, extentions and libraries that ride atop the UNIX layer, just like in NeXT/OS X. We're wanting much, much less of a UNIX clone, and much more of a high-performance desktop OS that's suitable for the masses.
As we go, we'll be able to look into other things, like integrating multimedia features, maybe using OggVorbis as the built-in audio/video codec.
As the project goes on, we'll also set out to make several consumer apps, in the vein of Apple's iApps. A movie maker, an audio library/player, and a photo app.
These are just a few thoughts... I hope we can generate some interest, get the project going, and have a real replacement for Windows before Longhorn arrives!
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we plan on x86 first.
The only problem with starting with darwin is that it doesn't run on AMD CPU's.... yet.
I did not know that
That kinda sucks cuz that's what I have. :(
[ September 25, 2003: Message edited by: suselinux ]
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Okay... we've got a couple of names...
LinuxNGE is the working name, but psyjax and I are kicking around "CthulOS", with "Dagon" being the name of the graphics engine.
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Are you guys gonna try and keep it open source
or will you have to use propriatery things Like the
PDF-based desktop compositor
you mentioned?
Funny though, I thought Panos and Calum would popping up saying that they would like to Join in the fun.
[ September 25, 2003: Message edited by: suselinux ]
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actually, we've decided to go with Ghostscript, as it's more open than PDF.
I think wer're going to build all of our original bits using the BSD license. It's still OSS, but there's less resistance to making it commercial if we wanted.
I figure once it's good enough, we could have two editions, the "downloadable" edition, which is really basic, and the boxed edition which would come with the OpenGL support, and more apps and stuff
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when you guys say Linux what do you mean
RPM based, Deb, Slack, Source Based....
Can I ask why you want to use windowmaker as a starting point for your GUI
I think its great because it the GUI least preverted by the politics of business sofar
I think that this is really exciting!!!
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when you guys say Linux what do you mean
RPM based, Deb, Slack, Source Based....
I think that this is really exciting!!!
I personally do not see a reason to add RPM support. As most apps will use .app packages. I think the RPM support would just slow it down.
And yes... this is very exciting.
My personaly choice for using Window Maker, is because its next based. And so is this. So it will be doubly next based... in a place where doubly is a real word.
I can't wait to get started on this. Unfortunately about all I can do is graphics work. (whis is generally last on big projects like this) However, I would like to stay on board with this project.
And I think we should start with Linux cus I don't have any Intel PC's to beta test on, so there is a problem with using Darwin there.
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Is Linux with a FreeBSD Kernel possible?
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that would be FreeBSD. Remember, it's the kernel that makes it Linux.
As for what we'd base it off of... just a very, very basic, stripped down Linux tree. The kernel, and the most basic utils and commands. Everything that the user is going to interact with will be high-level, built on NeXT libs.
RPM support could be included as a "Linux Utilities" option in the installer. NeXT and OS X don't include any of the UNIX command-line apps by default, you can install them, though. But the normal config won't have support for RPM, as it won't be needed. Drag and drop installof apps is the goal.
System packages, and some apps that install system extentions will use the Package Installer (Installer.app) to do their thing.
NeXT/OS X uses .mpkg bundles to install some things from. Double click the .mpkg bundle and the Installer.app opens and takes care of it all. It puts the Application's bundle in /Applications or whatever folder you specify in the install script. CthulOS will use the similar mechanisms. Package management isn't an issue, because an application consists of one icon. If it installs any extensions, then they'll be clearly labled and always be inside /System/Library/Extensions. they'll probably use a bundle format that I've tenatively dubbed the "Universal Bundle". It's a folder bundle much like a .app or .mpkg bundle, but it can contain drivers, extensions, documents, et cetera. If it isn't an app or installer package, it's a generic bundle, and it contains the file itself, metadata, and resources (icon, et cetera)
The desktop shell will need to be able to work with bundles, which is why WM and GWorkspace would be preferred, as they're designed to work with NeXT-style conventions. GWorkspace will correctly show application bundles as a single icon that runs the app when double clicked (at the command line, .app bundles are simply folders).
To understand the concept of bundles, I suggest reading up on them, as they're a pretty cool idea. Abstract an entire folder tree into one icon, so as to sheild the user from worrying about the binary and all of its support files.
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I guess darwin now works on AMD CPU's
Now we have a hard choice to make. Go easy and use Darwin, or do a little extra work and use Linux?
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I have to ask, are any of you actually programmers?
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Yeah, is this going to be something I can install this Christmas? Or is it more like a wish-list for the ultimate OS?
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Yeah, is this going to be something I can install this Christmas? Or is it more like a wish-list for the ultimate OS?
whether we were programmers or not, you would not have much to install by christmas.
I know I am not a programmer, but that is why we are sort of advertising. This is the wrong group cus most of you don't use Objective C. We have to find more NeXT oriented sites. But I thought it wouldn't hurt to advertise here.
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much of the low-level changes will be coded in C or C++. the Dagon display layer would be written in C. system-level stuff will be done using normal Linux APIs and the like. Objective C will only be used or applications and high-level things
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that would be FreeBSD. Remember, it's the kernel that makes it Linux.
Sorry, Sorry I meant to say GNU, really I did... :rolleyes: oh well, now Im black listed as the idiot.
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I've got a question for you guys. jeff seems to be pretty arrogant in his thinking on this. he seems to want to turn the concept of this OS into being a Mac OS X clone... I think that's a bad idea.
this OS will be designed for PCs, and therefore, people will have PC keyboards. PC keyboards have Ctrl, Windows/Start and Alt. Ctrl will do what it always does, be a part of univerally accepted key shortcuts (ctrl V ctrl C, et cetera) alt will be a modifier for ctrl. Windows/Start... what's it do?
My proposition is to let it do what it does in Windows... operate system-wide commands.
Windows E opens an Explorer window
Windows F opens the Find window
Windows R opens the run window
Have functions like Windows K open a "connect to Server" dialog (Command K does this in the OS X Finder)...
Windows E would open a new file browser
Windows F would open Find
Sound familiar? The idea is to give Windows users a BETTER alternative... but it also has to be familiar. There are a number of people who undoubtedly use the built-in functionality of the Windows key. Why not provide a use for it?
He says use it to just only open a launcher menu, or even do nothing at all. He'd rather force users into doing it HIS WAY OR THE HIGHWAY. I vote for giving people the option, and letting them decide.
He says that this would be "unlike any other OS" which is a lie because Windows already does it.
If you're going to get Windows users to switch, you should offer similar functionality. Don't copy from windows, and don't copy from OS X.
update: his issue was that because I didn't SPECIFICALLY STATE that the windows/Start key would have a function of its own, then I intended it to have none.
by saying that it can do the "same thing that it does in windows" I could never have meant that it does something when you simply press it.
wow. just wow
DENSER THAN A NEUTRON STAR
[ September 25, 2003: Message edited by: Jimmy's Always On Topic ]
further update:
we've figured it out...
hitting the start key will open a full-screen list of installed apps, a la F10 Launch Studio. the key will also be used for Windows-like shortcuts.
[ September 25, 2003: Message edited by: Jimmy's Always On Topic ]
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after a long and heated debate with JJ. I think we have decided that having to separate letters to do the same thing would be kind of dumb. As in ctrl n would be a new window, but windows e would do the same thing. Does't make much sense. Instead the windows key shouold forward those commands to the shell (finder type thing). so if the shell command is ctrl n then windows n will do the same thing from anywhere in the system. And ctrl k will do the same thing as windows k. And for those few things not controlled by the shell, like logout and restart and stuff will have their own specific windows + key. that ctrl + key will not work in the shell.... but they can't conflict. So if ctrl + s is save in the shell (not sure what u can save in the finder like thing) then windows s cannot be shutdown. it must be save.
I think that makes the most sense.
Now when u just hit the windows button down and let go it will open something like this:
http://www.skinner.com/jeffberg/files/f10/ (http://www.skinner.com/jeffberg/files/f10/)
(note from Orethrius: link is dead, no forwarding address)
the first picture is when u first open it (press the windows key) the second picture shows the live search (as u type in letters it narrows down ur apps) now to keep the non apps function available visually, we would have hardcoded shutdown and restart and logout command in there at the top. However once you start searching they act like normal programs. So when i first open it, all the hard coded ones will be the top row. Then when I hit "in" to open IE they will disappear just like all of the other icons that don't match in would. Now if i searched for "shut" then they weould disappear except for shutdown. Make sense?
I think this is the most intuitive and simple way to get the best of both worlds. Easy to remember system wide shortcuts and a nice visual way to launch apps.
for more info on f10 go here:
http://www.chronosnet.com/&/products/f10/f10_product.html (http://www.chronosnet.com/&/products/f10/f10_product.html)
(note from Orethrius: link is dead, Archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20040407180629/http://www.chronosnet.com/&/products/f10/f10_product.html))
P.S. I do not insist that this OS be an OSX clone. but I do want a couple of things from OSX. Like the universal menu bar at the top, and a dock that can act like OSX (alghough it doesn't have to act "only" like OSX... it should be able to be set like OSX's)
Then another request is an OS 9 based finder (shell). AKA no folder can be open in 2 windows at the same time. Also it would save the folder size and placement setting not in.ds_Store or desktop.ini's but in the folders meta data. I also think Meta data on this FS would be good.
P.S.S. I resent being called as dense as a neutron star. JJ made no hint as to the windows key having another function. When he said it will work exactly like windows. that registered to me as it will work exactly how windows works when u do windows + e or whatever. There was no statement or hint to a different function of this key
P.S.S.S.
Me and JJ also shortly discussed the possibility of making this a 64 bit OS. the transition will happen soon, Might as well do it.
jeffberg over and out
[ September 25, 2003: Message edited by: jeffberg: Mac Capitalist ]
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I coulda called ya a black hole :D
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I coulda called ya a black hole :D
true
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My proposition is to let it do what it does in Windows... operate system-wide commands.
Windows E 0pens an Explorer window
Windows F 0pens the Find window
Windows R 0pens the run window
I've been using Windows for 10 years and I've never even heard of this stuff. And you'd be surprised how many daily Windows users have no idea what Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V do. I use the Win button on my laptop to access the start menu cuz I hate the trackpad, but that's the only thing I've ever used it for.
I sure as hell wouldn't lose any sleep over this.
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but there are people who use it. I feel it would be better that the functions were there, lest they be disappointed when they can't do all the same things that they did in
windows
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I'd love to offer my support to this project, but the only thing I can do really well is make maps - and that isn't very useful to you. Maybe I could beta-test or write some documentation later in the project, or something.
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Uhm, but isn't this going to SERIOUSLY harm Apple if everyone just starts using an OS X clone instead of the real thing? I think this is a major concern that should be discussed before getting into such a project.
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1) who cares?
2) no.
let me expand:
1) when has a new product ever worried about how it will affect the market? new products are supposed to attempt to glut the market and that's it.they do not usuallyworry about the touchy feely aspects of everybody having a nice timetogether because competition is not like that.
2) it's not going to be official, it sounds like it'll not really be the same as MacOSX in a lot of ways, if it was, what would be the point in it? it's simply identifying a new market and catering for it.
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Calum's got it exactly right. the idea is *not* to create an OS X clone. If anything, it's going to be a NeXT clone with some OS X ideas tossed in for some measure of "familiarity", because OS X's way of doing some things are much less jarringly different than NeXT.
The point is to create something that's both an evolution of NeXT, and it's own unique UI. The underlying OS is very definitely built on NeXT's concepts, but it takes some things even farther, such as the folder structure.
UNIX and clones use myriad folders for storing bits and pieces. NeXT and its derivatives put all the UNIX stuff in /private and then all the higher-level parts go into /System/Library, /Library, and some user-specific bits fall into ~/Library
We want to put the /private folder inside of /System, get rid of /Library, so that only /System/Library exists, and have ~/Library be replaced by ~/Preferences.
Remember, saying "we want to base it on NeXT" doesn't mean "OS X clone"... OS X is a NeXT derivative, not NeXTStep itself. OS X is NeXT with the Mac UI rules applied to it. We'd take NeXT and just change its UI some to friendly it up.
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1) when has a new product ever worried about how it will affect the market? new products are supposed to attempt to glut the market and that's it.they do not usuallyworry about the touchy feely aspects of everybody having a nice timetogether because competition is not like that.
I read what you said about corporations being greedy (with which I only partially agree), and I assume that what you just posted follows from that. But as you should know, non-profit organisations are fundamentally diffrerent from corporations, in that most of them ARE, in fact, concerned about the 'touchy feely' aspects, as illustrated by the very website where we are posting right now.
Remember, saying "we want to base it on NeXT" doesn't mean "OS X clone"... OS X is a NeXT derivative, not NeXTStep itself. OS X is NeXT with the Mac UI rules applied to it. We'd take NeXT and just change its UI some to friendly it up.
I guess I worry a bit too much, then. Still, I've seen so many great companies fall. Be inc. comes to mind.
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non-profit organisations are fundamentally diffrerent from corporations, in that most of them ARE, in fact, concerned about the 'touchy feely' aspects, as illustrated by the very website where we are posting right now.
I don't understand what you mean by this.
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I don't understand what you mean by this.
I would have thought that you, of all people on the forum, would have understood that. I didn't elaborate on this, because I did not want to digress from the topic.
Anyway, you do agree that most non-profit organisations have a motivation of some sort, right? Whether it's advocacy, political motives, or just offering a community service, they do have a motivation. FSF, OSI, W3C, anti-Microsoft campaigns, Macintosh advocates, anarchists, communists, christians, even the PNAC, they are driven by social motives, if it's not only for money. So, in that sense, people who seek to help community rather than get paid do it because they are concerned in some way by 'touchy feely' aspects.
On the other hand, the main concern of companies is to make money. Of course, this does not necessarily mean that they are unsrupulous bastards. Corporations, despite their nature, are after all groups of human beings. Many of them do have genuine feelings and concerns for society, even if they may be wrong or disconnected from reality. And, of course, there are the hypocritical liars.
Sorry if this does not make sense to you, but I was typing this in a hurry, and I have homework to do. I have German classes on Saturday morning.
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Wilkomen to das MES
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I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with laukev. I think all organisation, businesses alike are after two main things. Money and/or Power. However, that is for another topic.
JJ and I had another convo/heated debate/relentless beating (again) And we can't decide on what kind of video card support for Dagon (codename for NM Not Quartz).
I say screw the people with cards that can't support the Dagon equivilant of Quartz Extreme.
However, he wants support for old and new video cards. I don't think I can accurately support his view, so I will tell you mine. Then when he reads this he will tell you his.
I don't think we should spend extra time programming in cards and support for a CPU based Dagon. Why do that when we can spend all of our time making a GPU based Dagon? If we did this, there would be fewer bugs, fewer cards to troubloshoot, fewer possibilities for errors. It would just make everything so much simpler. And IMO, by the time this OS becomes popular (if it ever does) then all cards will be able to run Dagon Extreme.
You may ask why can some cards run it and some can't? Its because some cards only support textures that are a power of 2 in size. AKA 2, 4, 16, 32, 64, etc. And since every window in Dagon Extreme is in essence a texture, there would be major problems.
So in order to support those old cards we have to make Dagon run on the CPU, slowing everything down. Which if they person has a Rage 128, their CPU is already slow enough.
I'm not sure of all of the details when it comes to how much CPU intensive this OS will be.
In essence I stress quality over quantity. Instead of supporting 30 cards, 10 of which are old and can't run dagon extreme. We should focus our efforts on supporting 10 -15 cards really well. Sure some people will need new computers, but they NEED new computers if their system doesn't already support this OS. This will create less work for us, and fewer possible problems.
Of course in the end it comes to the devs. What do they chose to do. It is their option, they are the ones programming this bitch.
I think I'm done
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just support NVIDIA from the year 2000 on.
ATI Sucks, I don't know why, but they do.
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no... leaving older cards out is absurd. Quartz doesn't require Radeons and GeForce cards. It gives them a better experience, but it doesn't cut you out if you don't have one.
to make an OS that's *better* than Windows, with the intention of getting joe average to be able to say "this is better" and want to switch... and then adopt an "exclusive" mindset toward supported hardware is ludicrous.
sure, it would be *easy* to hard-code the display layer to only use OpenGL calls, and therefore cut out everything but the Radeons and GeForce cards.
Remember, the issue is NOT "this card supports OpenGL" but whether or not the card would be able to *render a full desktop UI with GL*.
The Rage128 series, and its counterparts (nVidia Vanta and Riva, S3 Savage) support GL... but all have the unfortunate problem of only supporting textures that are a power-of-two size.
Rage128 chipsets don't have any trouble running Quartz. They're incapable of running Quartz Extreme.
Did Apple require that you have a Radeon or GeForce to run Mac OS X? NO. that would be absolutely stupid... and it would be business suicide.
to build the Dagon display layer, you'll need to take it in steps... the first step will be to build a display ghostscript layer... make it do this first, then add the OpenGL engine. you'll have the core graphics layer, and then the driver for the vid card will enable OpenGL acceleration.
it's not easier... but it's BETTER. X11 and Windows GDI might not be the best frameworks from a technological standpoint, but their support for a wide range of video cards is superb. by using plug-in drivers, you can support different chipsets and squeeze all the performance you can from them. so why not build a better display layer, and design it to use plug-in drivers? you can provide decent support out-of-the-box for most things, and then let people build their own drivers for really wierd and rare things, like Voodoo.
I honestly don't give a shit if it's "really easy" to only support bleeding edge, but I do care if joe average realizes that he's going to have to *buy a new video card* or even BUY A NEW COMPUTER just to run an OS that he *doesnt really need*.
my suggestion is this
your top-tier cards (GeForce series, Radeons) get all the perks from their optimized drivers. OpenGL acceleration (Dagon Extreme), all that shit.
the next tier (Rage128, Vanta, Riva) get all the features, save for Dagon Extreme. video acceleration is enabled, and you get nice, smooth playback of movies, et cetera. these chipsets get tweaked drivers that squeeze everything that can be sucked from these still very viable cards (seeing as they're STILL PRODUCED)
the next tier down is when things start getting to the border of "underpowered"... the Rage 2s, Rage Pros, the Intel810, and other older or marginally powered chipsets. these guys get rather generic drivers that allows Dagon to run... that's about it. it won't be syrupy slow... but it won't be a speed demon either. video might be rather jerky and poor quality. third parties are free to make more optimized drivers, but don't expect that to help these cards out an awful lot.
below that is the "unsupported" category. these chipsets use a generic framebuffer driver which allows Dagon to run... and that's it. forget watching videos, all you've got is a framebuffer. slow world. people can build drivers for unsupported chipsets if they wish. make them open source, or closed commercial. if they're OSS, we'll include them in the next release. if not... well, we won't.
by giving support for a wider range, you're going to open the OS up to so many more people.
to say "we will only support cards that will run Dagon Extreme"... you've just said "don't even look at our OS". the people that have these cards, are more than likely gamers, and they're going to run Windows until you pry it from their skeletal fingers.
Jeff is a Mac user, and he's honestly thinking too much like one. Apple knows exactly what cards they need to support and can put a lot of effort into making things work well. they're also a hardware company, and if they can give you an incentive to buy a new computer... they will.
by saying you're going to develop an OS for PCs, right there you've opened pandora's box. you've committed to supporting a myriad of mainboard chipsets, sound cards, modems, network adaptors, video cards, et cetera.
by saying you want to build an OS that will give Windows users a real reason to leave it behind, you're saying that your OS will install on their hardware and just work. they WILL EXPECT IT TO DO SO.
they don't care if you have an ideal machine. they don't care if you think that they should have the newest video card. they're tired of windows, you've given them an option... a truly BETTER way out... oh, but wait. there's a catch. they'd better have an up-to-date computer or they're out in the cold.
they'll dismiss the product as being the ultimate resource hog, being poorly designed, poorly thought out, and badly built. ultimately... they won't use it.
I'm sorry, but I don't have an elitist view of what this project should be. I DO NOT WANT TO MAKE MAC OS X.
I DO NOT WANT TO MAKE MAC OS X
I DO NOT WANT TO MAKE MAC OS X
I want to make something that nearly anybody can install on their computer, and have something better than windows. I honestly would condem the project if it became an "elitist" OS the way I think he wants it to.
this was my idea, all I did was ask a couple of people what they thought of it. I had an idea to make a NeXT-like OS that would run on mid-range and low-end hardware so that anybody can run it.... and then add special features for high-end hardware so that people who have the newer stuff can take advantage of it. I love how it's suddenly turned into a Mac OS X clone for ultra-high performance workstations, and the idea is to say "fuck those poor saps who have older hardware".
GOD DAMN IT I WONDER WHY I FUCKING TRY SOMETIMES
[ September 27, 2003: Message edited by: Jimmy's Always On Topic ]
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Anyway, you do agree that most non-profit organisations have a motivation of some sort, right? Whether it's advocacy, political motives, or just offering a community service, they do have a motivation. FSF, OSI, W3C, anti-Microsoft campaigns, Macintosh advocates, anarchists, communists, christians, even the PNAC, they are driven by social motives, if it's not only for money. So, in that sense, people who seek to help community rather than get paid do it because they are concerned in some way by 'touchy feely' aspects.
Yes exactly; social motives, or offering a community service. Calum was saying that non-profit groups don't have any obligation not to step on the toes or hurt the feelings of corporations. If they change what they do out of deference to a corporation, then they're letting down the community they're supposed to be serving.
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Yes exactly; social motives, or offering a community service. Calum was saying that non-profit groups don't have any obligation not to step on the toes or hurt the feelings of corporations. If they change what they do out of deference to a corporation, then they're letting down the community they're supposed to be serving.
That depends on what the the non-profit group aims to. Sometimes, non-profit organisations are advocacy groups. I never said that organisations had obligations not to hurt corporations. But if a particular corporation is directly involved (as it would have been the case if some group expressly aimed to replace a company's product, which is fortunately not our case), then some considerations should be taken if many members are supporters of that particular company. Now, you'll excuse me, I have to leave for my German.
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just support NVIDIA from the year 2000 on.
ATI Sucks, I don't know why, but they do.
i love you
and JJ. No reason to get so mad. A nice calm post would have been just as effective.
One more thing I would like to add. Have any of you thought that maybe one of the reasons why Windows is so buggy and shitty is because it supports so much hardware? I bet that is MS removed all driver support except SB Live, Audigy, Radeon, and Geforce support. Windows would run a lot better right off the bat. Of course they still have code to fix, but I bet that would help.
JJ I have only been a Mac user for 2 years. For the other 6 that we had a computer. I used Windows, starting with 3.1. So don't imply that I'm blinded by Steve's ways. I'm not. I still use my PC (not much, but when I have to, I do) But I am in no way blinded by mein F
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sorry...
that was mainly caused by a lack of sleep and food :o
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If you want to make this a commercial distro make people think that this system is meant for great computers.
Even if you drive a tercel like me your gonna want to use the motor oil designed for performance engines right?
If this was a linux distro that was comunity driven then I would say fuck you support everything, but if this a for-profit project then just support the computers that wealthy people already own.
my specs
AMD 1.3GHz
Sound card integrated on the mian board
Video card Integrated
Ethernet card Integrated
noticing a pattern???
I went out and said to the guy at a place called A-Power (http://a-power.com) what is your cheapest system, and what is your cheapest 17" monitor.
and i got this web page (http://a-power.com/sys/ap09-soho.asp)
well that one from a year ago it's been upgraded since then......
So not even I would be using this OS, Besides how could I ever leave SuSE.
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even if it were closed commercial, I'd rather sell it for a fair price and support a wider range of hardware.
but, it's gonna be open source, using BSD, and there'll probably be a "free" edition and a "boxed" edition
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I think "if" this goes commercial. Then we can start thinking about working on old card support. But in the beginning we should keep it simple. Geforce and Radeon support.
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nope. sorry. wrong answer.
You won't want to sell it unless it's popular. It'll NEVER get popular with an "exclusive" mindset like that.
Trust me.
If people that don't have badass new hardware look at this and realize they have to go buy a new computer just to run it, they'll say fuck you.
They might as well go buy a Mac. I'd much rather them be able to look at this and say "wow, it's really badass, is based on legendary NeXTStep, and can bring some of the capabilities of a Macintosh TO MY EXISTING HARDWARE"
I still dont' see your reluctance to wanting to ACTUALLY SUPPORT PEOPLE! Why do you believe so strongly in having something that nofuckingbody will use? What is your obsession with turning this into OS X? I didn't ASK you to be a part of it, all I did was ask you if it sounded like a good idea. The only person I ever really talked to about it was psyjax.
I'd rather see the project never happen than see it ruined by such a crippling and idiotic decision
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Well Jimmy, if you go with that P4+i865 setup you are going to have to make sure this OS runs well on it because I'm going to try the OS out. :D
Good luck with it. I hope it turns out great.
When you all release a Beta of it I'll try it out and I'll try to help you all out as much as I can. I'll report the issues and bugs that I find and I will try to fix some of the issues after I report them and if I fix it before you do then I was a help. ;P I'm assuming that you are going to have the Source Code available too?
[ September 29, 2003: Message edited by: Viper ]
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code? very likely. I think we all agree (wow, seems amazing) on the BSD license. It's open enough for the OSS fans, but still is closed enough to sell it.
Besides, NeXT was done using the BSD license!
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Actually it's not "closed" at all. It just permits derivatives to be "closed". If you want to make it proprietary then why are you using a licence that's even more permissive and 'open' than the GPL? I don't understand how you think using a BSD style licence would make it any more sellable than using the GPL.
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JJ,
I see your point with it having to be popular before people will purchase it.
I also, now think that it is a good idea to support more people if we are willing to spend more time doing it. Which just mentioning not doing it to you makes it seem you'll give it as much time as you possibly could towards getting it like that.
Also, I don't want to make a clone of OSX. If its not gonna run OSX software there is no point to making an OSX clone. I think some elements from OSX should go in, and some elements from NeXT should go in, and some elements from windows should go in.
However, it will have to look completely kickass in order for it to become popular. Cus when people first look at it, they see how it looks, we want them to say "wow" (like u said" right when they lay eyes on a screenshot. Then when they use it we want them to say "wow" again.
I don't want it to be Aqua, or a half assed copy. It will have to be something newer and better looking.
I repeat, I do not want this to be a clone of OSX.
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we need to start talking about this again
since it's better in every way than any existing Linux distro... AND IT DOESN'T EVEN EXIST YET!
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CthulOS on sourceforge (http://sourceforge.net/projects/cthulos/)
GO THERE NOW!!
if you're interested in teaming up, contact Jeff or I
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Page not found.
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It's up now. I'm checking it out as we speak.
(EDIT)
-This Project Has Not Released Any Files-
I'll check it out again later.
[ October 09, 2003: Message edited by: Viper ]
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im working on a hompepage for it. The built in sourceforge page doesn't allow you to say much.
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffberg: Mac Capitalist:
im working on a hompepage for it. The built in sourceforge page doesn't allow you to say much.
HEy cool! You guys shoul now issue a bulletin to the SF help wanted section to attract programmers. Likewise someone should set up the mailing list.
Just some suggestions. I myself did a sourceforge project back in the day. Check it out at:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/spriteworldx/ (https://sourceforge.net/projects/spriteworldx/)
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hmm... Spriteworld on CthulOS
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How do you intend it to leave behind its Linux heritage when it's based on the Linux kernel?
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I think they mean to leave behind its "Unix" heritage.
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how do you pronounce the name
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ka-thoo-los
an alternate name is LinuxNGD
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What about the name?
http://cthulos.sourceforge.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5&post_id=9&order=0&viewmode=flat&pid=0&forum=1#forumpost9 (http://cthulos.sourceforge.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5&post_id=9&order=0&viewmode=flat&pid=0&forum=1#forumpost9)
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I looked on the site, and read this
"LinuxNGD is an initiative to create a modern desktop system, built on modern technologies. A new OS, codenamed CthulOS, will combine the Linux kernel with NeXTStep-inspired high-level technologies. Other projects will be to build a full-featured AV layer, similar to Apple's QuickTime, and the applications needed to make this a viable software platform."
web page (http://cthulos.sourceforge.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2)
EXCITING!! When, When, When will a beta be ready, a year maybe?
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it'd be nice
nothing's happening on it right now, though. we're still getting devs. I don't even know if anything's happened on the site!