Stop Microsoft
Operating Systems => Linux and UNIX => Topic started by: H_TeXMeX_H on 1 April 2006, 05:11
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I've been wondering why we would want people to switch to Linux. Yeah, Linux is a lot more stable and secure and not full of shit compared to Window$, but why would we want people to switch to it ? The reasons aren't always as clear as you might think. Specifically, I'm talking about the effects of large numbers of people switching to Linux and the effects it wound have.
The following are in terms of results of large numbers of people switching to Linux.
Pros: (please add more if you want)
1) Better and more software, hardware, and driver support for Linux - this will eventually happen anyway, but if consumers switch to Linux more companies will release Linux drivers ... i.e. printers, scanners, modems, usb internet, integrated wifi, etc.
2) People will be free of Window$ hell - a good thing in general
3) UNIX based systems will evolve faster with more donations and funding - I hope this will be the case
4) Larger consumer base may make it easier to diagnose and fix bugs - assuming more people participate in debugging
Cons: (again, add em if you know em)
1) More adware, malware, viruses, bullshit marketing targeted at Linux - I've been largely ignorant of this point of view, but now that I know more it doesn't seem all that unlikely
2) Possibly slower evolution of hardware - M$ pushes for faster and better hardware to run their bloated piece of shit, while Linux can run on ancient systems, will it push significatly less hard ? probably
3) Economic downturn due to large number of companies dependent on Window$ to market their otherwise bullshit product - it seems far fetched, but not really. List all the companies you know that are dependent on M$ to market their products (only works on M$ companies) not that I wouldn't like to see them fall, unfortunately they claim their losses to the feds and take it out of YOUR taxes. All anti-virus, anti-spyware, anti-adware, clean up M$, 3rd party partitioning, etc. (this may contradict with a pro in that anti-virus may soon again be needed)
4) Distro wars - there are so many distros, and a lot of boundaries separate them in therms of how they do things (package managers mostly), how will these conficts be resolved ? Which distro will be preffered by consumers ? will some distros start charging money for their OS ?
I'm not trying to say that we shouldn't encourage people to switch to Linux, but I do want to consider the consequences of swiching large numbers of people to Linux. I haven't really fully considered these consequences myself until recently ... I think they are important to consider though
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Heres another Pro, Some people don't notice a difference between windows and linux, I sat a person down in front of a linux computer and they just started using, Just had to make sure there was a firefox and AIM icon on the desktop:pIm serious though, Alot of people don't know the difference, they just think its like a different version of windows, My 6th Grade english teacher had a mac in her classrom, She said it ran Mac OSX and then she said "its just another version of windows right?" I just kinda well sat there with my eyes wide open
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Interesting ... very interesting. Then really, most people are scared of something new. Most people I hear say you gotta be crazy to use Linux, maybe they just haven't tried to use it. You know what I might do ... it's kind of a pain to hand out CDs ... besides my college has a T1 connection ... why not e-mail everyone and tell em about Linux. Sadly I think the ITS won't allow non-Window$ OS to run due to the "security threat". They say you gotta be running anti-virus to connect ... they may have this built into being able to access the internet. Still, it's worth a try I suppose.
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Because We don't want to be stuck in the MS trap.
The GNU way is the only way this was ever possible:
- The GNU licence protects OSS developers from being ripped off. So they dedicate themselves to quality OSS software
- The resulting OS is free as in beer so anyone can get it.
The more people using linux the more companies that will look at putting money into it and the more respect the developers get for their work. Eventually it will overtake windows but that requires a larger user base.
Nvidia are releasing commercial quality drivers because there is demand for them.
and hell why not?
your cons:
1 - no linux is better designed from the ground up. Applications are designed better. You would have to be an idiot or have your machine open to hackers to get a virus. Viruses could die out.
2 - but the hardware doesn't have to compensate for windows bloat anyway. Modern PC parts are being develped for XP and are far beyond what is required yet are still getting better and better.
3 - You said there would be more linux viruses then said there will be no demand for tools to remove them :P
4 - They don't its a free world and all packages have to be inspected for how modify the distro so packaging different is not a problem. Whateva they want. Ubuntu this year something else next if a distro can't keep up then it shouldn't stay king of the hill which mean continuous progress. Err some already do but the content is open source and freely available anyway.
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We, as in the entire world, need to get out of a monoculture controlled by one company who puts world domination and the *AA above the needs of it's own customers and security. MS should not control the world. It doesn't have to be Linux exclusivel. Despite how much I like Linux, I know it must not be Linux exclusively. There are umpteen *BSD's and OSX out there, as well as other minor players like Yellowtab Zeta and ecomstation available. Like Scotty said, "the right tool for the right job."
Even Windows may have its place... it's place just isn't everywhere
People may worry about interoperability, like back in the early 80's when there were several "home computers" on the market that couldn't talk to each other. They may say we need a monopoly so they can send their word files by outlook to their friends. To which, I say BULL. Open Standards garantee interoperability. MS can and will change their "standards" whenever they feel like it. Try "interoperating" on a decent sized MS word file from 10 years ago.
Windows is a security mess. The entire world has to suffer because of it. Worms. Zombie networks. Spammers.
Linux/BSD etc won't slow hardware evolution. MS doesn't "drive" anything. Believe me, hardware manufacturers are driven by the need to create the best products out there. Look at the advances in Intel and AMD chips. Both companies are constantly trying to make better chips, because of competition and customer demand, not because MS decrees it must be so.
Yes, more malware will be written for OSX, BSD, Linux, etc. if it becomes more popular, but these are fundamentally more secure operating systems, so it will never be anywhere near as serious a problem as it is with Windows. The leeches that depend on the flaws in Windows? Adapt or die. Quite frantly, Norton and Macafee Antivirus are starting to really piss me off and I'd like to see them go belly up.
Linux and BSD distributors can and do charge money for their OS. I'm quite frankly upset that I can't go buy Linux or BSD at Comp USA anymore.
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Because We don't want to be stuck in the MS trap.
The GNU way is the only way this was ever possible:
- The GNU licence protects OSS developers from being ripped off. So they dedicate themselves to quality OSS software
- The resulting OS is free as in beer so anyone can get it.
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Besides the practical advantages to a Free Software OS, we must look at the political ramifications. The societal advantages that will be brought about far outweigh anything that could be considered technologically better.
The way I describe it to people I talk to about Free Software is this...
"Imagine that your hardware is a car and the software are the roads... now imagine a world where you can't look at a map lest you risk the chance of being sued because all of the roads are copyrighted or patented. Now let's go further to envision that 90% of these roads if not most of them aren't owned by one company they are overseen... what would be the condition of these roads? (they usually come in with talk about a crapload of potholes and dilapidated bridges, I add to it and ask them how many tolls they'd pay.) How much trash and bullshit would be on the road as well as how much damage would be incurred to your vehicle... Well that is what's happening to your computers right now and the roads are only getting steadily worse, snowballing. (Here I ensure them that I'm not some kind of political extremist) Some software DOES have the right to be proprietary especially if it is specialized and for specific industries. But can you even begin to think of a world where you couldn't look at lawyer affadavits and the reasons behind laws passed down by jusdges or even worse the laws themselves, our political system is based on freely available information. The computer industry is becoming far too engrained with governmental, economic and law to be the exception. To be honest... you could directly compare Microsoft with Haliburton. Having a company reap massive profits doing the job of the government and doing it in secrecy?:thumbdwn: Want to see a fair election? Open source those goddamn voting machines software, run them on software built on freedom."
etc etc etc... I've yet to have anyone able to counter these things that I say.
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why not e-mail everyone and tell em about Linux. Sadly I think the ITS won't allow non-Window$ OS to run due to the "security threat". They say you gotta be running anti-virus to connect ... they may have this built into being able to access the internet. Still, it's worth a try I suppose.
No no no. Don't email everyone. That's spam and we don't want to be associated with that.
Sometimes IT people at universities are like frightened children. Sometimes they get so scared of being breached they get fixated on a policy and don't use their brains.
When I worked at a university, I had computers on a subnet that was hacked. They suddenly went from no security to overboard. My computers weren't the problem. The chief admin was a nice guy, but he really had no clue about running computers in a science lab. He told me that I had to replace all the Windows95 operating systems with Windows2000. I flat out told them that I would not do that and could not do that because I had legacy hardware and software that would not run under the NT kernel (which was abosoulely true). He started to argue with me and just interrupted him by saying that that I did not have $100,000 to replace the legacy hardware or several months to rewrite the software, and what he wanted was simply not going to happen, plus he was ignoring the fact that MY COMPUTERS WERE SECURE (the breach was on one of their systems).
He backed down, but three weeks later shut down all my networking claiming my systems had been hacked. He had a problem, instead of doing any detective work at all, he just assumed it was me (of course, by doing so, he left the problem system ONLINE). Again, nice guy, but stopped using his brain. I had to spend two hours holding his hand through his own netoworking logs before he realized that MY COMPUTERS WERE SECURE.
Another time I had to install Linux. I told him that I was going to install a Linux box (needed an IP number, and he had locked the routers out to specific MAC addresses). When he asked what distro, I told him RedHat 8. He sat there and told me that they only allowed SuSe because all other distributions had security holes (obviously he knew squat about Linux, SuSE is great, but not the only secure distro). Again, he was a nice guy, but the response was rather childish. I patiently explained to him firmly that no, that was not true, I knew what I was doing, I had several RH linux boxes exposed directly to the internet without them being hacked, I would firewall the crap out of it with IPCHAINS, and they were free to portscan it and see for themselves. They did that night. I passed. Two months later I got a huge portscan traffic from a random IP address in the building. I send the logifles to them and told them that they had a security breach. They wrote back and said "well that was just us checking your security again. You know, thanks for noticing it."
They never bothered me again.
My advice, put your linux box on the network, and set up a good IPTABLES firewall (you can go to firestarter.sourceforge.net for a wizard-tool if you are not proficient with IPTABLES). They can't tell what your box is if the ports are blocked, unless they are actively sniffing your browser packets for the broswer ID (in which case I'd be alarmed for privacy reasons). Don't set up an active mailserver (most distros have their sendmail or postfix configured not to listen to the internet these days) and use the university mail proxy so they don't see stuff coming from port 25. In fact, leave pretty much all the servers off.
If they call you on it, be courteous, but firm. Understand that these guys are really really insecure because they have to deal with fuckwit windoids all the time like that Jerry Taylor guy from Tuttle Oklahoma. Let them know you are not a fuckwit windoid, and you know what you are doing by speaking their language. That will make them feel better.
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Hmmm ... I suppose you're right. If M$ were at least toned down, things would be a lot better. It would kill a lot of the bullshit companies, but they would deserve it. Hopefully Linux is secure enough to make viruses a thing of the past.
@ mobrien_12: so it would just be better to hand out Ubuntu CDs ? They send a lot of mail to me that isn't really spam, but it's targeted at all students ... well I suppose I shouldn't risk marketing Linux as spam. Is there a better way to advertise it without it being spam ?
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Hmmm ... I suppose you're right. If M$ were at least toned down, things would be a lot better. It would kill a lot of the bullshit companies, but they would deserve it. Hopefully Linux is secure enough to make viruses a thing of the past.
@ mobrien_12: so it would just be better to hand out Ubuntu CDs ? They send a lot of mail to me that isn't really spam, but it's targeted at all students ... well I suppose I shouldn't risk marketing Linux as spam. Is there a better way to advertise it without it being spam ?
I order loads of Ubuntu CDs and hand them out to almost anyone I meet that's halfway intelligent and owns a computer newer than 5 years. Even if they do not use it, it still sits in their hands for a short time and reminds them that there is more than simply one OS solution. Usually it ends up in their top desk drawer but that's better than it NOT being there. I imagine that many of those CDs will end up in CD trays if my friends are unfortunate enough to buy Vista (against my recommendations) and quickly get pissed.
TexMex, honestly, what do you think the reason for Free Software's superiority over proprietary products is?
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piratePenguin and I have had many discussions (well more like flame wars) about this, here are the two most prominent:
http://www.microsuck.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9666&page=1&pp=25
http://www.microsuck.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9566&page=1&pp=25
Because we're both so oppinionated neither of us have effected the other's views so make up your own mind.
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piratePenguin and I have had many discussions (well more like flame wars) about this, here are the two most prominent:
http://www.microsuck.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9666&page=1&pp=25 (http://www.microsuck.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9666&page=1&pp=25)
http://www.microsuck.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9566&page=1&pp=25 (http://www.microsuck.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9566&page=1&pp=25)
Because we're both so oppinionated neither of us have effected the other's views so make up your own mind.
Your point being Aloone? Two discussions hardly closes the book on this subject, especially on one that so many brilliant people have spent so many years time invested in and within the confines of the Microsoft Eradication Society's forums. Besides Pirate was a little confused from what I could read, like the LGPL was created for open source documentation, period. It's often used for various Free Software libraries.
Trust me, you cannot possibly change my mind here, don't even try. I have already decided to dedicate my life to the ideals of the FSF and I've visited the head office twice. RMS is my idol and you'll be hard pressed to find a day when I am not wearing a GNU shirt. I'm a GPL whore. If you don't like what I say, so be it, we'll agree to disagree.
I respect you Aloone and I'm not trying to start a flame war here.
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Your point being Aloone? Two discussions hardly closes the book on this subject, especially on one that so many brilliant people have spent so many years time invested in and within the confines of the Microsoft Eradication Society's forums. Besides Pirate was a little confused from what I could read, like the LGPL was created for open source documentation, period. It's often used for various Free Software libraries.
Trust me, you cannot possibly change my mind here, don't even try. I have already decided to dedicate my life to the ideals of the FSF and I've visited the head office twice. RMS is my idol and you'll be hard pressed to find a day when I am not wearing a GNU shirt. I'm a GPL whore. If you don't like what I say, so be it, we'll agree to disagree.
I respect you Aloone and I'm not trying to start a flame war here.
http://www.microsuck.com/forums/showpost.php?p=103776&postcount=64]After[/url] reading http://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-not-lgpl.html (again), I partly forgive GNU for inventing the LGPL.
If glibc was using the LGPL, then non-free software developers *could* build non-free software for GNU/Linux using a C library from one of the *BSDs or something. GNU/Linux systems would need two C libraries then (probably possible after a bit of work) if they want to run non-free software.
So if the LGPL never existed it wouldn't *end* non-free software on GNU/Linux but it would make it harder to develop/run non-free software on GNU/Linux, I don't see why that is terribly bad considering glibc is a GNU project anyhow.
What do you mean by "like the LGPL was created for open source documentation, period"?
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My father put the latest Ubuntu on a P3 Dell he had to spare last week. I downloaded the iso and burned it. He had downloaded an iso but didn't know how to properly make the disc. The online updates were a snap, just click and okay.
The hard part was security. He balked at setting up accounts. Windozes doesn't require more than admin, which = root. Ubuntu does and he didn't understand why. After forcing him to set up a user account and then authenticating the update install, he saw the light.
One advantage to more Linux would be the realization that Bill is an idiot who has compromised everyone's privacy and security for no good reason by allowing Windozes users to run and surf at the root.
One more possible advantage to more Linux users would be a less technical compile and install procedure for third-party software. I can't even get my mac to compile properly because there are too many variations of GCC. Disc images are the way to go. It takes more bandwidth to distribute because you can't depend on sharing libs, but it's foolproof.
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I do not know, I had read a long time ago somewhere that the lighter version of the GPL had been made solely for the documentation of GPL'd programs. Later on being adapted for Free Software libraries... I went looking for where I had read it and I guess I had read it incorrectly. Sorry.
Anyway, I don't want proprietary software on my OS. When I hear about non-free GNU/Linux apps and people telling me how I should use them it makes me think of laying a brick on top of an infant.
One of the guys in the threads that you posted a link to, aloone, said to pp "you can't mix morals with economics." That is exactly what's wrong with Microsoft and many other companies. That implies that for the profit you wouldn't mind seeing a couple thousand kids killed. Virtue is EVERYTHING, not the almighty dollar. It's preposterous to think that since it's not in our faces right now that it will never be if we pursue a particular sphere of action. The fault of many is in the confidence of a percieved tower of knowledge. We are self confident inside ignorance. We think that the only way is the current course because that is all we know and change is out of the question. If there is going to be change it needs to be drastic because our MO will not unless it IS drastic. We must let Free Software change US and not the other way around. There is more than simply one way and I'll leave it with a quote from a good friend:
"People always fear change. People feared electricity when it was invented, didn't they? People feared coal, they feared gas-powered engines... There will always be ignorance, and ignorance leads to fear. But with time, people will come to accept their silicon masters."
--Bill Gates
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I respect you Aloone and I'm not trying to start a flame war here.
Fair enough, I'm just putting forward both sides of the arguement.
By the way, MASM32 isn't Microsoft even though its EULA is worse than Microsot's.
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"People always fear change. People feared electricity when it was invented, didn't they? People feared coal, they feared gas-powered engines... There will always be ignorance, and ignorance leads to fear. But with time, people will come to accept their silicon masters."
--Bill Gates
Wow ... silicon masters ... or is it just the silicon master ... Bill Gates ? :)
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Well EULA seems to be sucking a lot of Macroshaft...
TexMex if you liked that one, try this one on for size:
"Since when has the world of computer software design been about what people want? This is a simple question of evolution. The day is quickly coming when every knee will bow down to a silicon fist, and you will all beg your binary gods for mercy." --Bill Gates
Or how about this?
"Let's face it, the average computer user has the brain of a Spider Monkey." ---Bill Gates
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You're shitting me ... he really said that ? Wow ... I mean I dunno what to say ... I suppose he may be right since nearly everyone on the planet uses Window$ ... but to say it so bluntly ... brain of a spider monkey ... :fu: Bill Gates !!! That just proves it M$ must be exterminated at all costs.
This is similar to what $ony said about consumers ... "Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about" ... :fu: $ony !!!
These companies must be brought to the ground ... I say boycott everything made by them and promote reasonable alternatives.
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These companies must be brought to the ground ... I say boycott everything made by them and promote reasonable alternatives.
One step at a time... Free Software OS takes the majority of the desktop industry and then everything else will follow suit. These men are not evil or special they're simply powerful, corrupt and typical. It's not the consumers or the CEOs, not the money but the laws of nature... it's going to happen, I'd simply like to ease it along help it on it's way, maybe help shape it to be clear, understood and strong. There'll still be power hungry dicks in charge of the hardware industry after Free Software takes over. There'll still be dicks in charge of commercial Free Software as well. It's human nature to want more power and :tux:Free Software may be the right thing for a free society that doesn't mean that it can change human nature...
With that I think I'll catch some well earned ZzZzZZzzZs. GOODNIGHT!!!
PS I think the quote might be more offensive towards monkeys... I don't know...
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PS I think the quote might be more offensive towards monkeys... I don't know...
I agree ... but that's not the way it should be, now should it ? :D
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no and it won't be that way forever either
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"Since when has the world of computer software design been about what people want? This is a simple question of evolution. The day is quickly coming when every knee will bow down to a silicon fist, and you will all beg your binary gods for mercy." --Bill Gates
Or how about this?
"Let's face it, the average computer user has the brain of a Spider Monkey." ---Bill Gates
I'm having a hard time believing those. What's your source?
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Before you doubt, search google... those quotes are on multiple sites, dude.
Here's one for example with a lot of REAL quotes:
http://www.brainyquote.com/.../bill_gates.html (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/b/bill_gates.html)
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I have 100 billion dollars... You realize I could spend 3 million dollars a day, every day, for the next 100 years? And that's if I don't make another dime. Tell you what-I'll buy your right arm for a million dollars. I give you a million bucks, and I get to sever your arm right here.
How interesting ... and strangely psychotic :eek:
Oh and this one's my favorite:
People everywhere love Windows.
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About switching to Linux, how could one get the security updates for Debian Sarge?
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Debian Sarge has security update repositories already in it's used repository list when you first install.
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About switching to Linux, how could one get the security updates for Debian Sarge?
http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/apt-howto/ch-apt-get.en.html ;)
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There are people who don't like capitalism, and people who don't like PCs. But there's no-one who likes the PC who doesn't like Microsoft.
:D Heh.
What we're really after is simply that people acquire a legal license for Windows for each computer they own before they move on to Linux or Sun Solaris or BSD or OS/2 or whatever.
Hmm...
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What we're really after is simply that people acquire a legal license for Windows for each computer they own before they move on to Linux or Sun Solaris or BSD or OS/2 or whatever.
M$ are bunch of fucking bastards :mad: !!! This quote just says it all ...
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M$ are bunch of fucking bastards :mad: !!! This quote just says it all ...
Well they got my money before... :rolleyes:
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Who are those quotes attributed to?
BTW, I was thinking about the "handing out ubuntu CD's" thing... I suppose one could give away cards with the ubuntu URL on it too...
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Hmmm ... well if I'm gonna be giving out something it shouldn't be just paper ... let's face it ... unless the paper is money it will get binned :( So, Ubuntu CDs are still the best thing to hand out.
However ... how about putting up posters (small ones) on blackboards with Ubuntu info ... they'll be colorful, similar to the already poster-like images on the Ubuntu website. Most of the things posted on the physical blackboards (as opposed to online ones) are NOT advertisements (with the excepiton of a few looking for a roommate ads), they're more for your info kind of stuff. Like lecture by so-and-so the famous Microbiologist .. or whatever.
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Who are those quotes attributed to?
BTW, I was thinking about the "handing out ubuntu CD's" thing... I suppose one could give away cards with the ubuntu URL on it too...
Why not??!? They ship the damned things for free...
https://shipit.ubuntu.com/ (https://shipit.ubuntu.com/)
total investment on your part? $0.00 and 10 minutes.
They ship you over 10 OS kits with pretty install and live cds
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I didn't know that.
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Well now you know, so what for are you waiting?