Stop Microsoft
Miscellaneous => Applications => Topic started by: piratePenguin on 21 June 2006, 09:03
-
Aloone_Jonez would not be happy to learn that the Windows download is 4.6 MB.
That's fucking FOUR FLOPPY DISKS WTF??? :p
http://www.opera.com
I'm using it now - but until it's free it will never take Firefox's place on my machine.
The widgets are a feature I can't see myself wanting, but they look like crap on my system anyhow (they prob look better on windows):
http://piratepenguin.is-a-geek.com/~declan/crap/operawidgets.png
EDIT: selecting lines/paragraphs is going to be messy since double clicking text brings up that right-click menu :o
Well, I'm keeping it, just for testing.
-
I've tried the beta and I liked it, I've been waiting for this of awhile, I'll download it when I get home.
-
I'm using it now - but until it's free it will never take Firefox's place on my machine.
Opera is free, and has been since version 8.5.
They are still charging for Opera on non-mainstream platforms like Windows Mobile/PocketPC, cell phones, Nintendo DS*... but not Linux, FreeBSD, Mac, etc.
*not quite released yet, but date and price have been announced in Japan
-
Opera is free, and has been since version 8.5.
They are still charging for Opera on non-mainstream platforms like Windows Mobile, cell phones, Nintendo DS*...
*not quite released yet, but date and price have been announced in Japan
Hehe... I meant free as in freedom ;)
I was gonna specify that, but I thought you'd know me by now ;)
I'm gonna do a bit of a memory usage comparison between FF and Opera now... Even though I don't believe NUMBERS to be all that important (using extra memory for cache is generally good)
-
Hehe... I meant free as in freedom ;)
I was gonna specify that, but I thought you'd know me by now ;)
I'm gonna do a bit of a memory usage comparison between FF and Opera now... Even though I don't believe NUMBERS to be all that important (using extra memory for cache is generally good)
Er, jaysus.
I set them to the same homepage, started them. FF started faster, perhaps because Opera had to load the Qt libraries when GTK was already loaded for FF.
Opera was using something like 35 Mib virtual memory and FF was using just over 70 (I was shocked). so I opened 4 tabs - same pages in each browser and FF was using /less/ memory than Opera at this stage:
http://piratepenguin.is-a-geek.com/~declan/crap/operaVff/omgFFwins.png
And then.... I was just looking at the system monitor for about a minute and Opera's RAM usage went down, and then it went down again... WTF?
It dropped from 122 to 82 :scared:
So er - probably Opera is better with the numbers, just like I expected.
-
[SIZE=24]HOW GAY IS THAT ANIMATION!!![/size]
-
wut...I can't edit my own post even when it's the last one???
edit...sure I can...for some reason I wasn't seeing it in Opera9...It's there now though...
anyway...
I just instsalled it for shits and giggles...
It automatically imports your bookmarks...which is a good start for me since firefoxe seemed a little buggy in that aspect and kept crashing when I tried...
Other than that, it's no faster, no slower...
It's just a different lay out. I will delve deeper into the depths of OPERA 9 to see what I can destroy...err find out.
-
http://www.opera.com/
... the new YMCA crew ?
-
I find this interesting because I've found that Opera starts faster than Firefox on Windows but slower on Linux, however it renders faster than Firefox under Linux but I haven't noticed much difference under Windows. This was all my experiance with Opera 8.5x I'm about to test 9 now, I'll let you know what I think.
I don't consider the start up speed to be very important since you only start it once, I think the rendering speed is more critical.
-
[size=24]HOW GAY IS THAT ANIMATION!!![/size]
Crap. My lame-o-meter exploded when I viewed that animation. I'll have to get a new one now. :D
-
lol, you should all uninstall your crappy non-free flash players - all I see is an image.
-
i used to champion opera on this site, years ago when mozilla was still way below version 1.0, and that was because opera was better than mozilla back then, simple as that. the only problem was the banner adverts. Now, firefox has almost every feature opera has that you would want, when you have the prefbar installed anyway, and it is more useable, more stable and also it is Free. opera has basically stood still for years (mostly) while mozilla (firefox, bon echo, whatever it's called now) has really risen from its own ashes at least once since then.
-
I've just downloaded it. Seems to be better. Now I can load a YTMND without a damn quicktime box in the corner.
-
oh man, ohman ohman ohman.
I can't believe what I just tried, worked.
I setup a new user account on my machine, "test", logged in, started Opera - it setup a wonderful fresh profile for me in /home/test/.opera. This included a cookies4.dat file, which would store any cookies for me.
In Firefox, cookies are stored in a cookies.txt file. This file has very strict permissions - nobody can view it except the owner. This is for a very good reason - if anyone else can read it, they can copy it and they'll know all your cookies.
And, well, if you're me, that means they'll be able to log into my microsuck forums account and well, make this post. I'm logged in as test now, I coppied the cookies4.dat file from /home/declan/.opera/cookies4.dat into /home/test/.opera and when I came to microsuck.com/forums I was already logged in - didn't need to enter a password!
Badbad Opera.
Are the permissions fucked up like this on Windows too?
EDIT: konq users are safe - I can't access /home/declan/.kde atall - smart people those KDE devs.
EDIT: A security vulnerability is a flaw in a product that makes it infeasible
-
Interesting ... did you try this with FF too ? or just Konqueror ...
-
Interesting ... did you try this with FF too ? or just Konqueror ...
It won't work with FF since the cookies.txt file is readable only by the owner, noone else has access to it.
If any other user on the system tries to access my FF cookies they'll be denied permission, like they should be.
-
Well there you have it ... FF is better than Opera ... until they fix this bug. Really, I think closed source is it's biggest problem ...
-
Well there you have it ... FF is better than Opera ... until they fix this bug. Really, I think closed source is it's biggest problem ...
It is a very big thing for the Opera dev's to miss, but it doesn't seem very hard to miss it.
That said, the firefox guys got it, so did the elinks and the links2 guys, and the gaim guys, the irssi guys... hell, too-many programs have their config directories only readable by the owner - gxine WTH?
(btw, I just noticed, even tho firefox's cookies.txt file is only owner-readable, so is the whole .mozilla directory)
I wonder how the update system will handle the change - will it be able to just change the permissions or will it have to check the permissions on the next run or will it have to check the permission on it on *every* run?
And I also wonder how long it'll take to get the update out. Knowing the speed these things are supposed to go at with non-Microsoft products (can't resist) and the apparent simplicity of this problem.. maybe I'll wake up tomorrow and there'll be a fix :D
And hell, maybe I wasn't in the right page. I used the contact us page, used the "privacy" subject, it's the best I could find when I was flying through the site and it doesn't sound very pleasing lol. If it was firefox, I'd know to go direct to bugzilla.mozilla.org and when I'm filing out the bug I'd check the "this is a security bug" box and bang the developers can get to work on it.
But I suppose really there's no huge danger since only so many people know about it right now (and if that changes, so be it).
And plus, I don't think it will affect Windows, since Windows usually shuts everyone else out of the users home directory (whatever it is/called).
Some GNU/Linux distros do this by default too no doubt, but not Ubuntu. And I prefer it not to. If you don't trust your applications to set proper permissions to should-be-confidential files (containing passwords, cookies, whatever), don't use the application or give it any confidential info.
-
Apart from the cookie issue, I have always known Opera was faster. It start up faster and everything (on windows). On linux, everything starts slower unless you make it stay in the background. But I also never liked Opera. It always seemed cluttered to me with stuff I don't use. The rendering speed I think is the same unless you're bloating firefox with certain extentions. And firefox can also be tweaked a lot in about:config to make it a bit faster, or with fasterfox. Firefox has always been simpler and more configurable with a variety of extentions. The old firefox before it was named firefox, that was fast. But the current one is slow to start and uses up too much memory. It would be great if it was designed to keep itself running in the background if desired, or at least the relevant part of it, so that it would start instantly. And have it cleanse it's memory use automatically. If you leave this thing running for a while and open a lot of plugins, the memory use will rise greatly and doesn't go down, or takes far too long to go down. If these issues get resolved it would be better than Opera as it is now, no denying it.
-
Apart from the cookie issue, I have always known Opera was faster. It start up faster and everything (on windows). On linux, everything starts slower unless you make it stay in the background. But I also never liked Opera. It always seemed cluttered to me with stuff I don't use. The rendering speed I think is the same unless you're bloating firefox with certain extentions. And firefox can also be tweaked a lot in about:config to make it a bit faster, or with fasterfox. Firefox has always been simpler and more configurable with a variety of extentions. The old firefox before it was named firefox, that was fast. But the current one is slow to start and uses up too much memory. It would be great if it was designed to keep itself running in the background if desired, or at least the relevant part of it, so that it would start instantly. And have it cleanse it's memory use automatically. If you leave this thing running for a while and open a lot of plugins, the memory use will rise greatly and doesn't go down, or takes far too long to go down. If these issues get resolved it would be better than Opera as it is now, no denying it.
You can disable some of Firefox's cache features in about:config. If it's ram usage annoyed me I would not hesitate to disable that "lightning fast back-forward navigation" feature, it takes up ALOT of ram (opera does this much better I gotta say) and I don't find it very useful. It doesn't work in certain situations, by design (whenever the web-server says not to cache a document, and whenever the previous page wasn't 100% loaded), which seems to be basically all the time that I want it to work.
-
Really, I think closed source is it's biggest problem ...
for firefox/mozilla/seamonkey etc. http://prefbar.mozdev.org/
-
Really, I think closed source is it's biggest problem ...
Well, if firefox had this problem you bet I'd try to produce a patch before saying a thing for something that seems so easy. Anyhow, I think this (http://lxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/source/extensions/cookie/nsPermissionManager.cpp#884) is the line of Mozilla that's responsible for the permissions being so strict. And fecking hell, I was looking at this line over an hour ago thinking "no - that must be the permissions for opening the file" but why would it be 4 digits if that was the fecking case!
Anyhow, Opera, gimme the source code under the terms of the GNU GPL and I will fix this fucking thing for ya for free. How's that for a benefit!
-
Opera won't GPL their source because they risk loosing sales of Opera mobile, if you look at their EULA it forbids the use of freeware Opera on mobile phones. However they might release the source but not under the GPL, for example they could attach some conditions to it like it shouldn'd be used on mobile phones.
-
There is a program(or an extension) to keep FF's dlls and stuff
in the back ground :) jsut google for it(maby it was in sourceforge) i think we talked about it somewhere in this forum.
-
yeah, yeah, yeah
Fix your firefox problems with these lines (http://gomeler.com/2006/04/10/firefox-tweaks-extensions-and-optimizations/)
-
Opera is free, and has been since version 8.5.
They are still charging for Opera on non-mainstream platforms like Windows Mobile/PocketPC, cell phones, Nintendo DS*...
*not quite released yet, but date and price have been announced in Japan
Whitch is why I went with a PSP.
-
EDIT: The entire fecking profile is world-readable! That means everyone can see the passwords for the magic-wand thing, all the mail... the cache, history...
Yea - this is much worse than just the cookies.
In my test user account, I had no problem copying the whole .opera directory of my normal user account. Now, in my test account when I opened Opera it started up from where I'd finished the last time I used opera on my normal account - my gmail and microsuck accounts are open and logged in.
I can see all my usual bookmarks, and the confidential notes (http://piratepenguin.is-a-geek.com/~test/omg-note.png). And, if I logged out of Microsuck, I'd be able to automatically fill in the password at the login page thanks to the magic wand tool. Although I can't see the passwords in the 'wand' preferences thing, I KNOW that if someone was determined enough they'd get all my passwords stored with the magic wand tool (from the world-readable wand.dat file) - which is often all of them.
-
What level would you rat this vulnerability?
I think its seriousness varyies depending on how you use your PC.
If it's a single user machine then it isn't important since it can't be exploited by an external dark force on the Internet.
But it's pretty serious if you allow many people to use your machine but there again all they would need is a boot disk to access all your files anyway, unless you've disabled it using the BIOS set up program.
-
What level would you rat this vulnerability?
I think its seriousness varyies depending on how you use your PC.
If it's a single user machine then it isn't important since it can't be exploited by an external dark force on the Internet.
But it's pretty serious if you allow many people to use your machine but there again all they would need is a boot disk to access all your files anyway, unless you've disabled it using the BIOS set up program.
I'd go for 'less critical' since it won't effect that many people (although I don't know the guidelines for that rating system).
It's organizations and universities that I'd be worried about, but I bet few of them have world-readable home directories.
-
Well, if firefox had this problem you bet I'd try to produce a patch before saying a thing for something that seems so easy. Anyhow, I think this (http://lxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/source/extensions/cookie/nsPermissionManager.cpp#884) is the line of Mozilla that's responsible for the permissions being so strict. And fecking hell, I was looking at this line over an hour ago thinking "no - that must be the permissions for opening the file" but why would it be 4 digits if that was the fecking case!
Anyhow, Opera, gimme the source code under the terms of the GNU GPL and I will fix this fucking thing for ya for free. How's that for a benefit!
In regard to the privs, I see it's set owner read-write only, sans sticky bit. Might it be more secure to have certain .mozilla subdirectories only modifiable by the originating user?
-
In regard to the privs, I see it's set owner read-write only, sans sticky bit. Might it be more secure to have certain .mozilla subdirectories only modifiable by the originating user?
They're only modifiable by the owner.
I don't see any need for a sticky bit - why would other user accounts want to write stuff into my mozilla profile?
-
i think i may have heard about this problem in previous opera versions by the way, i could be wrong. still, if that is right, then failing to fix it in this version is truly worthy of internet explorer, i'd say (unless saying so puts me on the hate list of the more conservative members who also think the hidden files don't exist either)
-
I believe that if there are hidden files they are REALLY hidden, to find them is no easy task ... might as well assume they aren't there at all ...
-
hidden files ?
why would you need
one just store the data in a malloced file
with no directory and access directly by address from the fs :)
-
i think i may have heard about this problem in previous opera versions by the way, i could be wrong. still, if that is right, then failing to fix it in this version is truly worthy of internet explorer,
I see your point and kind of agree, it's such an easy thing to fix and if they knew about it before there's no excuse, but there again the Linux version probably isn't at the top of their list of priorities, also note that it only effects people who have more than one user account - it's probably quite near the bottom of their bug list.
i'd say (unless saying so puts me on the hate list of the more conservative members who also think the hidden files don't exist either)
I don't hate you for it, I just don't think you're being very logical about the hidden files thing, you know all the facts, it's up to you to draw your own conclusions whether they be logical or illogical.
-
but there again the Linux version probably isn't at the top of their list of priorities,
and that makes it OK? correct me if i'm wrong, but opera is still a pay-for product, even in linux. firefox is free and does not expect you to put up with shoddy work like this.
also note that it only effects people who have more than one user account - it's probably quite near the bottom of their bug list.
most, if not all, *ix systems have more than one user account. many windows systems do in fact. anyway having only one user per system is hardly an acceptable workaround. these excuses are worthy of microsoft itself!
you know all the facts, it's up to you to draw your own conclusions whether they be logical or illogical.
that's right, glad you admit that people are allowed to make up their own minds! :-)
as it happens, the facts are tha i have seen all those "really" hidden files with my own eyes, so some loudmouth telling me that only idiots believe they are there is hardly going to change my mind, no matter whether you criticise my logic, my intelligence or any other faculty.
-
and that makes it OK? correct me if i'm wrong, but opera is still a pay-for product, even in linux.
Only on mobile devices which are normally single user.
firefox is free and does not expect you to put up with shoddy work like this.
Debatable, Firfox is one big collection of shoddy bodges if you ask me.
most, if not all, *ix systems have more than one user account.
But most home users only bother with two, root and their own user account.
many windows systems do in fact. anyway having only one user per system is hardly an acceptable workaround. these excuses are worthy of microsoft itself!
I agree.
that's right, glad you admit that people are allowed to make up their own minds! :-)
Yes, they are and if they draw the wrong conclusion then more fool them.
as it happens, the facts are tha i have seen all those "really" hidden files with my own eyes,
So they really can't be that hidden then!
so some loudmouth telling me that only idiots believe they are there is hardly going to change my mind, no matter whether you criticise my logic, my intelligence or any other faculty.
Just my oppinion, on second thoughts, perhapps I was a bit harsh, maybe not idiots but zealots would be a better description.
-
Still no reply from Opera or secuntia, maybe it's been reported before and they're being dickheads about it.
Security and privacy is hardly a top priority for them.
This is not my problem anymore.
-
When did you send the email?
I've been told that that's the problem these days, people send emails and expect an immediate response but in reality an email is more like a letter - the postal time. I'd wait a week or so before I dismiss them, besides don't secuntia focus more on vunerabilities that can be exploited by an external dark force?
-
When did you send the email?
I've been told that that's the problem these days, people send emails and expect an immediate response but in reality an email is more like a letter - the postal time. I'd wait a week or so before I dismiss them, besides don't secuntia focus more on vunerabilities that can be exploited by an external dark force?
I emailed them four days ago, after I posted about it here.
Considering it's a security/privacy issue, I'd nearly expect it to be FIXED by now.
And if secuntia focus only on buffer overruns and that crap then secuntia sucks.
-
Guess what...whether I use firefox or Opera....I still get to SURF TEH INTRAWEB!!!
Weird huh?
-
Me too, even though I'm currently using Internet Explorer as I don't have any choice at the moment. . .
-
sex
ahahahaha now this page will be filtered for aloone in work ;P
-
I haven't found a browser yet that doesn't display my porn, sex, lezbian, fuck, teen, amatuer, asian, anime, hentai, manga, ass, pussy, tits!
Oops, that may trigger a few filters....
And by default...Windows has 2 accounts. You can go to the log in and type administrator as well. Just thought I'd throw that in there.
-
oh you mean
that you can wach anal,tits,hand jobs,blowjons,hentai,manga,manga hentai and tantacles
without y content being filtered ???
:) yup me too no control what so ever
filters suck!
-
You guys are such assholes.
-
Thanks for making be wait until I get home before I can veiw this thread bitches!
-
I have Opera, but it has more problems than I like. I might try v9, but I'm probably not going to switch. Here's my problems with Opera:
#1: It isn't availible on all platforms. I use Firefox because it works on all my computers, and the less switching of interfaces the better. The only way to run Opera on OpenBSD (my laptop) is through Linux emulation (buggy).
#2: Not as extensible. Firefox has more extensions than anything else.
#3: Opera renders many pages poorly. Many that work fine on Firefox, Safari and IE look like crap on Opera.
On the plus side, its fast. And it is free of charge, like every web browser.
-
you should complain that restricting you
violates soem law and make them stop that !
-
#1: It isn't availible on all platforms. I use Firefox because it works on all my computers, and the less switching of interfaces the better. The only way to run Opera on OpenBSD (my laptop) is through Linux emulation (buggy).
I would be nice if they made it open source or even sharred source that way you could compile it yourself.
#2: Not as extensible. Firefox has more extensions than anything else.
Each to their own on this one, I personally have never needed any extensions in Opera. Extensions are one of the things I don't like about Firefox, for it to even half suit me needs I'd need to install lots of extensions, these take up more memory, slow it down and are often buggy causing it to become unstable.
#3: Opera renders many pages poorly.
Wow, I think even Mastertech may have had a point here! Opera is probaly one of the best browsers as far as rendering standards are concerned (it passes the Acid2 test which is more than can be said for Firefox). Firefox has many Netscape specific non-standard features that many websites have been designed to cater for so they don't render wel in Opera, it's even worse with pages designed for IE. As Mastertroll rightly said a webrowsers support for standards has very little to do with webpage compatability, however as least I include the all important standards debate in my disscussion.
Many that work fine on Firefox, Safari and IE look like crap on Opera.
Shit I think you've got me here, well maybe not. You're aware that both IE and Firefox have specific features that the web as been designed around (well more the former than the latter but you get the point) but what about Safari? (you may ask), Well Safari (or so I've heard) is probably the best for standards (it was the first to pass the Acid2 test) and it wouldn't suprise me if it has kind IE and Netscape emulation to make it more compatable, I don't know.
On the plus side, its fast. And it is free of charge, like every web browser.
All good, I also like the download manager and zooming features.
-
Firefox has many Netscape specific non-standard features that many websites have been designed to cater for so they don't render wel in Opera
What "non-standard features"? XUL? I wish. FF supports web-standards well and then supports some IE-only stuff too. Opera does the same I'm sure, but they don't do it as good.
If you look through this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_(CSS)) you'll find there are parts of CSS supported by FF and not Opera and vica verca.
FF has very good support for W3C standards. It even has support for one or two (well I think one) things from XHTML 2.0 which is still a working draft (but almost undoubtedly will become a recommendation). (both Opera and FF support some things in CSS3 which is also a working draft, but I don't think Opera support anything from XHTML 2.0 yet)
-
I like extensions. I've got 29 running right now. It allows you to have the functionality you need without the functionality you don't.
Also, Opera was designed to pass the acid2 test, while Firefox just added support wherever they thought it needed. Really, they both support standards about equally well, but I've noticed Opera doesn't handle mixes of old & new standards too well. I'd add a link, but the only ones I can think off atm would get me banned :).
[OFFTOPIC]Question: If a link to questionable content is encrypted somehow (rot13 or 1337, like), would it be less a problem?
[/OFFTOPIC]
Another reason:
#4: Themes. I have not seen the ability to use themes in Opera (or IE, for that matter). I like black japan, but it makes me paranoid.
[OFFTOPIC]I wish FF would let you change themes w/o restarting. I mean, trying out new themes is a pain in the :mad::eek::fu:, if you know what i mean.[/OFFTOPIC]
Overall, Opera is decent, but I prefer FF. Each to his own, though, as long as it isn't IE.
[OFFTOPIC]Sorry for drifting OT, my brain is asleep.[/OFFTOPIC]
-
#4: Themes. I have not seen the ability to use themes in Opera (or IE, for that matter). I like black japan, but it makes me paranoid.
Opera has themes. Just look under tools -> appearance and there you'll see a theme manager(called skins in Opera) that allows you to switch themes without restarting your browser. I have around 5 themes right now.
-
I see naked people :8
and it doesn't matter whether it's on Opera or firefox...
Strange 6th sensory powers?
-
Also, Opera was designed to pass the acid2 test, while Firefox just added support wherever they thought it needed.
I don't really see what your point is, other than trivia.
It's not even right.
Opera wasn't designed to pass the acid2 test. It wasn't designed to pass the acid 1 test. Opera predates BOTH of those tests.
And people seem to forget that Safari/KHTML was the first to kick ass on the ACID2 test.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid2
-
I see naked people :8
and it doesn't matter whether it's on Opera or firefox...
Strange 6th sensory powers?
You wonder if that's good or bad ... are they old and do they look like ancient, moldy, dried up rasins ? Like in most nude beaches in Europe ... ? Or could they actually be good looking ? Nah, good things never happen here ... it must have been a dream
-
Thanks for the imagery, Tex, I can die happy now.
-
Glad to be of help :D ... if you want even clearer imagery go there yourself
-
for those who haven't seen opera crash, a few minutes on this (http://piratepenguin.is-a-geek.com/~declan/svg/throw/throw.svg) page should do the trick ;)
still no word from anyone about that "vulnerability" btw.............. amazing.
-
well opera 9.01 was released a few days ago and they didn't fix this thing, oh well.
(btw opera needs an update system like firefox's)
-
I was fiddling around and decided to try opera. All I can say is that it's nice, but I'm sticking with firefox. Some heavy script pages don't slow down like on firefox. But, I got a lot of bugs with some java stuff. And I couldn't make autoscroll work if it even has it, no smooth scrolling either. This may be why the heavy script doesn't bog down too, who knows. And the shortcuts on the file dialogues aren't there. Not for gtk, not the kde ones either, so it's a bit annoying if you use this. Firefox has the gtk ones.