Stop Microsoft
Miscellaneous => Applications => Topic started by: actualfact on 29 November 2001, 22:02
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i just found out about this the other day. . it's kinda amusing, kinda lame. apache on window is too wild of a concept for me. . plus i'm kinda suprised the developers weren't all nazi-like about porting it to anything but unix. but, yeah, all the lusers start getting bright ideas to install it then have no idea what they're doing. haha
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Why screw up a perfectly good web server by porting it to Winblowz? It definately would not have the extreme power it has now UNIX.
No Thanks.
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And the binaries aren't even stable. Shows how much time they spent developing it [add]for this system[/add]. Apache for UNIX beats Apache for Windows anyday, and besides, Apache is not a Microsoft product. ;)
[ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: k3it4r0u ]
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windows version also gives unexperienced computer users a chance to open up a web server of their own
and it also gives users a pretty GUI and has that wonderful apache name which makes u feel warm and toasty inside
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and it's still better than IIS. :D
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yeah anything that you can crash with a VB program must be lame
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let's all run windows machines with apache and sendmail. :rolleyes:
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ohhh good idea
i'll take pictures of myself with my AOL digicam and send them all around
better yet i'll use Windows Media to make a home video for all of u!!!
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Apache windows has a GUI? Really? I never noticed, even though I run it quite a lot. And IIS crashes with VB scripts, not programs!
Besides, if you can crash it by doing a search. it obviously sucks.
Somebody said its unstable too! Apache for windows is perfectly stable. never crashed on me yet. and someone mentioned apache and sendmail...
it appears mail.microsoft.at (microsoft austria, i think) runs Sendmail on Linux (telnet to mail.microsoft.at port 25)
Good for a laugh
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I don't know about the Windows version but there are several GUIs for the *NIX version Comanche, Webmin, Linuxconf, etc... I would *never* run Apache on Windows when I can run it on a real OS. It's like putting mag wheels on a Yugo.
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quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
I don't know about the Windows version but there are several GUIs for the *NIX version Comanche, Webmin, Linuxconf, etc... I would *never* run Apache on Windows when I can run it on a real OS. It's like putting mag wheels on a Yugo.
True, but the Apache windows version is a godess-send for those of us stuck on a Windoze system while trying to develop a website for a Unix-flavored machine! I haven't found a GUI for it tho, everything I've got keeps telling me "enter the command" xyz (or whatever) to do stuff. As a code-wimp, it took me two days to figure out WHERE to "enter the command"!
:rolleyes:
What can I say, at least I'm trying to learn! And I now know what a MS-DOS prompt is, which made the article about how to clear the really hidden files so much more comprehensible!
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I don't understand. Why not run Apache on a Linux box where it actually is easy to configure (in fact it will likely be configured as you need it on a default install). You don't have to do your development on the Linux box if you don't want to (although I am happier doing web development on Linux). Especially if your ultimate taget platform is a *NIX/Apache box. Linux/Apache is an *awesome* staging/development platform as well as a production server.
If you must use Win* for development and don't want to FTP/SCP/FrontPage your site/development to the Linux staging/development server just turn on Samba and map a network drive to your web root on the Linux box.
I was in a similar environment in my last job. Corporate web servers (well known corporation) were running Sun Solaris, Apache, Tomcat, etc... I took an old P166 PC with a large hard drive, 128MB RAM, installed Linux/Apache, set up multiple Apache Virtual servers and Samba. The developer dudes who were stuck on Windows development platforms internally just mapped drives to the Linux box and did their code development right on the Linux web directories from their Win machines and they were *extremely* pleased with this setup.
I also set up "webmin" and gave them access to the Apache module so they could configure the web server however they wanted (graphically) from their browser. The entire process from sticking the CD in the drive to finish (including adding the DNS entries in our DNS servers for the virtual hosts) took me about an hour.
And this machine was tucked away in the computer room with no monitor or keyboard attached. Just sat there and ran. It had over a year of uptime when I left. It cost very little (just a discarded PC) and I had it hooked up to the corporate network backup system so if the machine died I could easily grab another and restore everything from backup.
It was funny because they constantly showed the staging web site to the big wigs for approval before updating the main corporate web site. If they only new it was Linux under the hood and didn't cost the company a penny.
[ February 06, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]
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quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
I don't understand. Why not run Apache on a Linux box where it actually is easy to configure (in fact it will likely be configured as you need it on a default install). [snip]
Well, I'm a new convert... Just about everything I've got at the moment depends on windows - to change everything over AND get the website done is just too much to do right now. I'm still figuring out some real basic stuff, having been assimilated by the Redmondian Borg at an early age. It will be a real achievement (for me) just to be able to actually make MySQL and PHP do what I want it to do, and upload it to the server. Like in my message above... I wanted to scream when I kept encountering the instructions to "enter this or that command" written by people who assumed I knew more than I did.
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Originally posted by VoidMain:
If you must use Win* for development and don't want to FTP/SCP/FrontPage your site/development to the Linux staging/development server just turn on Samba and map a network drive to your web root on the Linux box.
I'll probably be doing most of my work on php interfaces with the server (it's a freeBSD box though) - but I've got to learn how to DO them first! That's why I'm trying to create a close replica of that environment on my own machine. Maybe someday I'll take the plunge and convert to Linux, but not today. I'm just glad I have the *option* to create a reasonable facsimile of the sever environment without jumping in to Linux head first - because I'm quite certain I'd drown at this particular stage in the learning process.
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I'm sorry to say that now I *really* don't understand. Why not just install FreeBSD on a second box to use as your staging server?
Even with Linux I'm telling you it ain't as hard as you think. Even you could have had Linux up with Apache/PHP/MySQL/PostgreSQL etc in a matter of an hour or two. Why spend days trying to shoehorn Apache/PHP onto a box that nobody on the development team cares about? All the stuff you want is on the installation CD and you just pick the packages at installation time. I would also suggest installing the webmin RPM so if you do want to change any of the defaults and set up your MySQL/PostgreSQL/Apache/Samba graphically from a web browser from your Windows machine. It'll just be a net appliance at that point.
Apache will be up and running the first time you start the machine. Again, you don't have to wipe out your existing machine that you are using for developing. Grab another old PC from somewhere. It surely can't hurt to at least do it on the side of what you are already doing and if it doesn't work out then it doesn't work out, but I think you will find it ain't rocket science.
If I'm wrong I'll tell you I'm sorry (or feel sorry for you). What would you be out? Maybe a couple of hours? And once you realize Linux isn't so difficult install FreeBSD, it's very similar (you might scratch your head a little on a first time install but it's not "hard" either).
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VoidMan, I agree with you, but I can understand Karen's point of view. It took me 2 years to pussyfoot around linux to finally plunge last summer. All my three boxen now humm linux...
I did all my dev before on w2k with OmniHttpd, which is an excellent small footprint web server, with perl/php/ssi/cf support. Far more secure than the famous Micro$uck Intended for Idiots Server (IIS). It has a GUI too, but that is not to its detriment. Apache works well on windoze too, at least as the dev is concerned, I would not dare to use the combination for live sites. My remote hosting server has been always linux.
It may be a good idea for her to set up a linux box, aside, to play with it, just to get her feet wet and when she gets comfy with it, switch then. Once she is at that stage, she would never look back, but at the moment, her mind would probably lock up, staring blankly at the monitor, not knowing what to do next. How do I know? One of my acquaintances got into the same situation Karen is in and reacted exactly that way. Had to provide a crash course for a week and then the spark of light dispelled the darkness. :)
Note: I use Micro$uck instead of more appropriate Macro$uck, because only time it bothers me nowadays is when NT boxes are trying to inject their viral diseases unsuccessfully into my remote server. What a waste of bandwidth! Sometimes I think I should write a vaccine, that would eradicate the offending carriers once and for all.
[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: lu666s ]
[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: lu666s ]
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Isn't IIS a total waste of precious Internet bandwidth?!? My IDS database (Snort/Acid) is flooded with CodeRed hits (among all sorts of other bullshit from Infected IIS servers).
99% of the security hits are from infected IIS servers. Believe me, I've been tempted to go to every one of the IP addresses in my database and use that backdoor root kit that is obviously installed on the systems to reformat their drives for them!
As far as Karen's situation, you may be right. I started back when it "was" rocket science to get a Linux box up. I've just seen so many newbie success stories here that I really think she will not have a problem. If no progress is made after a couple hours of investment then save it for a rainy day.
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My IDS database (Snort/Acid) is flooded with CodeRed hits (among all sorts of other bullshit from Infected IIS servers).
My clients wondered how come their stats got a hefty increase in october/november! I had to disallow a whole slew of critts in webalizer config.
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99% of the security hits are from infected IIS servers. Believe me,
I do, in my case it was the same ratio.
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As far as Karen's situation, you may be right. I started back when it "was" rocket science to get a Linux box up. I've just seen so many newbie success stories here that I really think she will not have a problem.
I remember those times too. At first I hosted through a HSP resale, but then I decided for co-lo, in order to make it more profitable and to be able to offer custom configurations, not pre-packaged cookie-cuttery setup. Before that, clients thought I am a god, afterwards, they thought I am THE GOD himself! :)
It is way easier nowadays, almost less demanding than install of w2k/xpee, but it may be a dangerous plunge if Karen switches systems entirely without the possibility to fall back, especially as production is concerned. For all I know, it may take her a week, actually, to sit on the fence. :)
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Sounds like we have very similar experience.
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Originally posted by lu666s:
It is way easier nowadays, almost less demanding than install of w2k/xpee, but it may be a dangerous plunge if Karen switches systems entirely without the possibility to fall back, especially as production is concerned. For all I know, it may take her a week, actually, to sit on the fence. :)
I tried to say not to change where she is doing her developing immediately (if at all). But to instead find another machine to install Linux on. Certainly I did not say for her to wipe out what she has and install Linux on her current machine. Finding and installing on a discarded PC would not be dangerous in the least.
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quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
As far as Karen's situation, you may be right. I started back when it "was" rocket science to get a Linux box up. I've just seen so many newbie success stories here that I really think she will not have a problem. If no progress is made after a couple hours of investment then save it for a rainy day.
quote:
Originally posted by lu666s:
It is way easier nowadays, almost less demanding than install of w2k/xpee, but it may be a dangerous plunge if Karen switches systems entirely without the possibility to fall back, especially as production is concerned. For all I know, it may take her a week, actually, to sit on the fence. :)
Well, of course, you're both right. It would probably be a good and wise thing to start thinking about setting up a linux system, and I'm probably not going to do it real soon. To clear up one possible misconception - I'm working on a private project that may not (probably won't) ever make me any money. But what I learn in doing it might, down the road. It will at least give me a skill set that isn't as common as the one I have now (basically, html coding).
BUT... (warning, philosophical ranting ahead. Those not philosophically inclined may wish to avert their eyes to avoid unpleasant thinking sensations)
My take on this whole apache/win32, and the larger issue of linux vs win is this: Computer users are (in my view) divided into two groups: Code-warriors and code-wimps. Code-wimps are, for the most part, at the mercy of code-warriors, because they can't do anything that some code-warrior hasn't figured out how to do AND build a snazzy GUI front-end for the wimps to use. That's how Micros(uck)oft has obtained a virtual monopoly on desktop systems - and that won't change until *nix and *BSD people are equally willing to build those easy GUIs for their stuff.
Here's why: A lot of people in here speak disparagingly of windows users (and I suppose even my "wimp" term is some what derogatory), but the fact is, probably 80% of the people who use computers these days DON'T CARE and DON'T NEED to care about the code, or what goes on behind the monitor screen, in order to do what they need to do in their daily jobs/life.
An analogy: your average homeowner should probably have a hammer around somewhere, because there's always a nail or two that needs pounding in. Their goal isn't (and shouldn't be) to have the best damn hammer out there, their goal is to get the nail pounded in. I say having the best hammer shouldn't be their goal, because it's an inefficient allocation of their time and resources to search one out. (Actually, in my experience with this project so far, I feel like I'm being required to manufacture the hammer myself - right down to specifying the chemical composition and tensile strength of the alloy used to make the striking surface. :confused: ) MOST people simply need a basic, generic hammer to pound in a few nails, the quality/composition/manufacturing methods that produce the hammer aren't important. Sure, a better hammer might serve them well, but the time involved in making one isn't worth it, if all you want to do is pound in a couple of nails. Heck, you could use a flat rock for that.
I'm basically a code wimp, and although I'm working to change that to an extent, I'll never be a code-warrior. The only difference between me and the other 80% of the people using computers in the world today is that I've had enough of choking on the garbage Micros(uck)oft puts on my system simply because I don't know enough to get something different. I refuse to be dependant on MS's code-warriors any longer, because it's become clear to me that they DON'T have my interests at heart. I'm fairly certain that I WILL end up going to some *nix variety, because I'm currently running WIN 98 and I REFUSE to upgrade to the new stuff. It won't be long before I'll need something that won't run on 98.
But it's going to take time, and I'm already feeling a bit overwhelmed with the "new stuff" I'm learning right now. (In fact, this rant is actually avoidance behavior of a sort, because what I really should be doing is figuring out why MySQL can't find the MyODBC I installed a couple of days ago. And finding out what this DNS stuff is, and once I find that out, figuring out what I'm supposed to do with it.)
So, I'm gonna go back to work and leave you with a quote that I've been turning to for inspiration in the last few days when "it" (whatever "it" is) WON'T work and I can't see WHY it won't work and I just feel like giving up on the whole idea and playing freecell for the rest of my life:
quote:
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against that power governments, and tyrants, and armies (and Microsoft --ed note) can not stand.
--G'Kar, Babylon 5, The Long, Twilight Struggle
Karen
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Karen, please don't make these assumptions about needing to be a "code warrior" to use Linux until you have tried it yourself. I think you will find that it is just as graphical and easy to use as M$ as there have been several non-technical testimonies here recently by newbies.
If after giving it a serious try and you still say the same thing then that is a different story.
And as far as "The Best Hammer" analogy:
I suppose if you go down to the corner store and they have a hammer bin back in the corner full of hammers that work better than any other hammers, and you can take as many of them as you want for free, and they come with documentation about how the hammer was built if you choose to read it so you could build your own hammers and sell them free of royalty.
And then there is a hammer bin right at the front door with a big shiny sign that says "best hammers, only $199" and you bought this hammer, took it home, called up the hammer company to make sure they will allow you to use it and so they can get all of your personal info, then tried to drive the nail and missed and smashed your thumb because the hammer was improperly balanced, you would just continue on with this pain because it was the one at the front door and the one that everyone else used?
Sure there will be some documentation with the non-advertised version of the hammers in the back room as to their chemical composition, but you don't have to read it because you already have the hammer. Those that want to know about the chemical composition of the hammer can build their own hammer using either the same composition or a better composition, unlike the proprietary hammer at the front door.
[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]
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Karen,
Seems to me that you have a few misconceptions that are somehow outdated.
1. Most of the current linux distros have a good GUI interface or a choice of several and for normal use (email, browsing, aim-ing, etc) there are all the tools in the GUI that you need. Actually, many more than you would not expect for stuff that is not intended for the common user, development/programming tools inclusive.
2. As an add-on, you can fire up the xterm and do most of it also via commandline. It is often a real time saver.
3. As for apache/php/mySQL, there is virtually no difference as the config goes between winblows and linux, except maybe one -- it may be running more finicky on winblows because the original apps were developed for *nix and the win ports are kinda an afterthought.
There are only a few things that you my need to learn about linux to get fast on track -- filesystem directory structure. That is something that differs substantially and it is important to have an idea where things go and where you can find them; there are minor differences between distros, but all follow essentially the standard scheme. Second thing is the question of permissions and users. Not a rocket sci at all, just a common sense matter, but in winblows that is usually not an issue (unless one takes care to set the permission structure in NT/w2k/xpee, however most people stick with the default admin access not knowing any better). In some sense, you have been exposed to these two aspects since you have to deal with a FreeBSD remote server, if I am not mistaken.
You can digest these two aspects in one afternoon, and you are set and ready.
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quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
Karen, please don't make these assumptions about needing to be a "code warrior" to use Linux until you have tried it yourself.
(snip)
And as far as "The Best Hammer" analogy: (lots of snips here -everybody reading this can read your post too)
I suppose if you go down to the corner store and they have a hammer bin back in the corner full of hammers that work better than any other hammers, and you can take as many of them as you want for free, ...
And then there is a hammer bin right at the front door with a big shiny sign that says "best hammers, only $199" and you bought this hammer, ... then tried to drive the nail and missed and smashed your thumb because the hammer was improperly balanced...
Oh, great analogy! But, I don't think it's entirely accurate - you have to take into account the pervasiveness of the Windows OS (this is where MS's evil anti-competitive practices come into play). To be more representative of the OS situation, you'd have to say that instead of just being in the front "splashy" bin, the $199 hammers are available at EVERY hardware store, and at MOST of them, they're the ONLY hammers available. The "better (and free) hammers in the bin in the back corner" scenario would only be found in a few out-of-the way, non-mainstream stores - and the consumer would have to know where to find them.
Yes, the information of where to find the better hammers (and operating systems) is out there if the consumer knows where to look. And it should be noted that it's not unreasonable to expect a certain level of consumer responsibility in doing his or her homework. But it isn't entirely the consumer's fault. For one thing, as you said, when *nix started out, it WAS "rocket science" to use it, and only code warriors were capable of doing so. You say that's changed and, although I didn't know it, I'm not surprised to learn that a variety of providers are trying to move into the non-warrior niche with more user-friendly GUIs.
But, that isn't a well publicized fact, and while *nix users are justifiably proud of having found and "bought" the better system, this pride is sometimes expressed as an attitude of superior technological knowledge and abilities - which only feeds the public perception that the *nix OS is not "accessible" to the average Photoshop-, Excel- and Explorer- using Joe/Jane Q. Public. (A perception, I might add, that Micros(uck)oft is only too happy to perpetuate whenever the opportunity arises.) Given this wide-spread, and largely unchallenged misconception, is it any wonder that those J. Q. Publics (most of whom already have too many headaches and too many things to do), decide that they don't need yet another "headache."
There needs to be a serious effort to challenge the perception that switching from Win-whatever OS to Some-other OS involves a lot of headaches and "new stuff" to do and learn. Until there is, very few of the 80% (or whatever) of computer users that "just want to pound in the damn nail" aren't going to give switching any real consideration. I see some of that going on, but it's not nearly enough to compete with the ubiquitous Windoze propaganda out there. Not yet.
I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person, but even I wouldn't have gone looking for this info until my ISP raped my computer. OK, that's a bit harsh, but that's how it felt. I got bit by the Comcast takeover of the Roadrunner network. They sent me a CD that supposedly would install the communications software I needed for the new type of modem to communicate with my computer and their network. NOWHERE it the literature did it say that they would replace my IE and OE with their "branded" (and bloated) version, plus add a lot of other unidentified (or at least, opaquely-named) stuff to my hard-drive. Even the "install wizard" only said that the software would now "install the necessary updates to my browser" so that I could access the Comcast network. "Necessary" my a$$. The fact that Opera worked with their network "out of the box" so to speak makes it clear that they just wanted to put THEIR garbage in MY computer.
(oops, off on a tangential rant there... Sorry. Back to the originally scheduled rant...)
Going back to your "improperly balanced hammer that smashed my thumb" - as I kind of implied above, I probably WOULD "continue on with the pain" because it's very hard to find out that the REASON it smashed my thumb was that it was improperly balanced. I would have assumed that it was "user error" - another perception that MicroSlop likes to perpetuate whenever given the opportunity.
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If after giving it a serious try and you still say the same thing then that is a different story.
Actually, I'm expecting that I'll be able to deal with it without too much trouble - I went from Amiga to Windows with only a couple of years under my belt, and by the time I deal with setting up a MySQL database on a FreeBSD system running an Apache server (not to mention writing PHP interfaces), it'll probably feel like a piece of cake. I'm just not going to change everything at the same time. I'll deal with this database/server "new stuff" first, using the system I'm familiar with, THEN worry about dealing with new system "new stuff." It's like that old saying about time - the great thing about time is that it keeps everything from happening all at once!
Karen
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Yea, I feel your pain. My parents ISP at home got raped in exactly the same way . . . OUCH!
-Gonusto
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quote:
Originally posted by Karen:
There needs to be a serious effort to challenge the perception that switching from Win-whatever OS to Some-other OS involves a lot of headaches and "new stuff" to do and learn. Until there is, very few of the 80% (or whatever) of computer users that "just want to pound in the damn nail" aren't going to give switching any real consideration.
If I could edit my posts, I would change this to say that "very few ... are going to give switching any real consideration." Or maybe to say that "most of the 80% ... aren't going to give switching..." That's what I get for going back and rephrasing something without checking the WHOLE sentence!
And, why CAN'T I edit my posts? The FAQ says I'm supposed to be able to. Other people can edit their posts. (You don't have a "pout" icon, so I'll just have to fake it) (http://tongue.gif) out:
Karen
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quote:
Originally posted by lu666s:
Karen,
Seems to me that you have a few misconceptions that are somehow outdated.
1. Most of the current linux distros have a good GUI interface or a choice of several and for normal use (email, browsing, aim-ing, etc) there are all the tools in the GUI that you need. Actually, many more than you would not expect for stuff that is not intended for the common user, development/programming tools inclusive.
Yeah, VoidMain mentioned that too, so I went to the site in his sig. It looks like I've allowed myself to be mislead by the Windoze propaganda machine (again). Still, it's a common misperception, and as I wrote above, more needs to be done to counter it to the "unwashed masses" who might NEVER visit a site like this. Gotta take it to the streets, people!
quote:
Originally posted by lu666s:
2. As an add-on, you can fire up the xterm and do most of it also via commandline. It is often a real time saver.
:Shudder: I'm not ready for commandline yet. It took me several tries to get a listing of what modules were compiled into the Apache server I installed. (I want to duplicate (as far as possible) what my hosting company has, to avoid using something locally only to find that it wasn't available there.)
quote:
Originally posted by lu666s:
3. ... There are only a few things that you my need to learn about linux to get fast on track -- Second thing is the question of permissions and users. ... In some sense, you have been exposed to these two aspects since you have to deal with a FreeBSD remote server, if I am not mistaken.
I've only skimmed through the hosting company's info on permissions, as I'm not ready to set up there. But I'm currently learning about htaccess and restricting my own apache and MySQL server to "localhost" only, so I have a sense of what you're talking about. Also set up a user for MySQL that I *think* will duplicate the "user" that will be accessing the database on the web (select only permissions on two tables).
The good news is, the more I learn, the more the "big picture" is slowly coming into focus and I'm starting to feel more comfortable with the *thought* of working without a microsoft "net". At least, my anxiety level about it decreases every day, and I'm beginning to believe that I'm gonna get there without tearing out ALL my hair. Hubby says I seem to be cursing a lot less too. Which is (in general) a good thing, if only because it keeps the dogs from trying to hide under his desk. <G>
Karen
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quote:
Originally posted by Gonusto:
Yea, I feel your pain. My parents ISP at home got raped in exactly the same way . . . OUCH!
-Gonusto
Yeah, Comcast bites, in my opinion. My email still isn't working right. Half the time I can't connect to the server, the other half of the time it tells my my password is wrong. So I enter the SAME password, and it goes through fine. If it weren't for the fact that the DSL in this area is run by SBC - which has an even worse record for customer service - I might consider switching. Oh, well, things could be worse. I could still be on AOhelL. At least the internet connection is pretty reliable, and there's always webmail...
Karen
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quote:
Originally posted by Karen:
Oh, great analogy! But, I don't think it's entirely accurate.[snip] To be more representative of the OS situation, you'd have to say that instead of just being in the front "splashy" bin, the $199 hammers are available at EVERY hardware store, and at MOST of them, they're the ONLY hammers available. The "better (and free) hammers in the bin in the back corner" scenario would only be found in a few out-of-the way, non-mainstream stores - and the consumer would have to know where to find them.
Very nice post (you could have installed Linux in that amount of time). (http://smile.gif)
Actually I think I was pretty close. What you are trying to say is you can't buy a "tool belt" without a $199 Microsoft hammer preloaded. (-: The hammers themselves would be akin to the shrink wrapped software you find on the shelves. You can go into Best Buy and find both WinXP and Linux on the shelves, but you can't buy a computer (Toolbelt) without the MS hammer installed.
Also, you mention that the good (and free) hammers are hard to find. I guess you haven't seen my tag line. That's like having a hammer tree in your living room. You don't even have to go to the store. And if you pick an MS hammer off that tree you could end up in jail. On the other hand you are encouraged to pick as many of the good hammers off the tree as you like, free of charge, no strings attached.
Nobody has the advertising dollars that MS has and spending a lot of money on advertising is what made MS the monopoly that it is (along with some very shady business practices). They have *never* had a better product. Look at the Apple vs MS history. Or even the Amiga that you used to use (I worked with people who were more fanatical about Amiga than I have ever been with Linux).
Most (if not all) of the techology MS does have has been purchased, not developed in house. They go to great extents to stay away from standards bodies and to be as proprietary as possible. Linux happens to be the first thing that's come along that they can't buy out, take over, manipulate, bully, etc. And it's got them squirming. It's actually quite pleasing to watch.
And the market share is currently more like 94%-98% in the desktop market, not 80%, but I expect that to change drastically over the next few years. Big players are embracing it fully and more rapidly every day.
And I can't help but wonder what it was that drew you and others like you to a site called "fuckmicrosoft.com", especially not knowing that there are other alternatives? I have to assume it must have been some sort of frustration.....
Do me a favor and take just a few seconds to look over some screen shots of a couple of the more popular GUI systems available for Linux (yes you have a choice):
http://www.kde.org/screenshots/index.html (http://www.kde.org/screenshots/index.html)
http://developer.gnome.org/dotplan/ (http://developer.gnome.org/dotplan/)
Does it look completely alien to you or look like it would be hard to learn to use? And there are boatloads (hammer bins full) of themes out there that can drastically change the look of either of these GUIs, or take on the look of other commercial GUIs. You can make KDE look/feel like Win*, and the first time you run it asks you how you want it to look and act, one of the options is Windows 98. On one of my machines I use KDE with the Aqua theme/style that makes it look very much like Apple's OSX. On the laptop that I am currently typing this message I am using a completely different GUI called WindowMaker because it uses a lot less memory and makes my Laptop sing.
[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]
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quote:
Originally posted by Karen:
If I could edit my posts, I would change this to say....
You *can* edit your posts. Click the ICON just to the left of the "" ICON above your message... The one of the pencil and paper.
[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]
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quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
Very nice post (you could have installed Linux in that amount of time). (http://smile.gif)
You're incorrigible! But, just out of curiosity, how much space would I need for a Linux partition on my 'puter? I'm still not going to do it till I get my site development work done, my focus has got to be getting to the "place" where everything is working as intended, and I know HOW do do everything I need to do to maintain it. Still, I'm moving along at a fairly good clip, so it might be "Linux time" sooner than I originally thought
quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
Actually I think I was pretty close. What you are trying to say is you can't buy a "tool belt" without a $199 Microsoft hammer preloaded. (-:
Yeah, that's better. Glad you could read my mind well enough to figure out what I meant. You're exactly right - ALL the tool belts come with the Micros(uck)oft hammer preloaded.
quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
Also, you mention that the good (and free) hammers are hard to find. I guess you haven't seen my tag line.
Actually, I visited there yesterday and looked around. But, that's in this forum - and as you noted, I'm here because I'm already frustrated with M(acrobull)S(hit)'s products. How many people that aren't actively looking to change are going to come here? Just a few rabid MS supporters coming to troll the board, as far as I can see. I've heard one or two people mention Linux in general forums, but not many. And *I* wouldn't have found this place if somebody hadn't mentioned it in the DevShed MySQL forum. (Or maybe it was the PHP forum... one of them, anyway)
quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
Nobody has the advertising dollars that MS has and spending a lot of money on advertising is what made MS the monopoly that it is (along with some very shady business practices). They have *never* had a better product.
True, but I have to add, Linux and other altOS platforms could still be "out there" more than they are. Particularly in the arena where their best prospects already ARE - the web. You don't need a huge advertising budget. Web-based advertising is ultra-cheap these days. Some say that's because it doesn't work. I say it's because most of the advertisers have been too enamored of flash at the expense of content. They started putting up these flashing/animated/screaming banners that were so annoying that people started looking for software to block them. So then they started using pop-ups and pop-unders, which only served to annoy people even more, leading to things like Opera's ability to refuse all pop-ups.
Advertising fact: If people are looking to buy a broom, all you really have to say in your ad is "we have brooms" - believe me, if they're looking - even if they're just wondering if maybe they oughta look into buying a new broom - they'll see your ad. If they're not looking, no amount of flash or pop-up/under sneakiness is going to make them pay attention your ad. I even have a personal anecdote to prove it: When our refrigerator died, "all of a sudden" all the newspapers were FILLED with appliance ads! What great timing on the advertisers' part, right? Wrong. Those ads were ALWAYS there, I just never saw them because I wasn't LOOKING for a refrigerator. My brain just filtered them out.
(Sorry for yet another mini-rant. This is a pet issue with me - before I went into web-work, I spent nearly 20 years in marketing and advertising, and the amount of money people blow on ad campaigns that CAN'T and WON'T do the job they want it to do constantly amazes me.)
I've already thought of a couple of static banner ads that would grab the attention of anybody in the state of mind I was a few days ago (i.e., I've had enough of this crap, what else is out there) - and part of me wants to stop what I'm doing and produce them (I get distracted easily - it's a tendency I have to fight a lot!) for the benefit of the "community."
(OK, here's one of them - a screen shot of the "blue screen of death" with only the words "Resistance is NOT futile!" Would you click? More importantly, do you think a viewer who had recently encountered the BSOD would click? Of course, the page the click leads to is just as important. That's where you have to explain the easy GUIs and ease of installation in terms that won't scare off the "just looking, thanks" folks.)
quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
Look at the Apple vs MS history. Or even the Amiga that you used to use (I worked with people who were more fanatical about Amiga than I have ever been with Linux).
Yeah, having to give up my Amiga because I couldn't find the programs or support I needed still stings sometimes. (And we're talking 10 years!)
quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
And the market share is currently more like 94%-98% in the desktop market, not 80%...
My 80% was just a guess of share of computer users that are focused solely on "pounding in the nail" (the immediate task at hand) and would never think of looking around for different hammers as long as they've got one that works. After all (just for one example) I'm in that 94%-98% market share that MS *currently* enjoys, but they're not going to have me much longer.
quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
... but I expect that to change drastically over the next few years.
I do too. I think the convergence of a couple of factors makes this a great "window of opportunity" for alternative OSs - the fact that "big boys" are rebelling at the extortionist licensing and upgrade policies of MS, and the ever-increasing number of people deciding to put up their own websites. Front Page and other Windoze-based editors are not universally supported on web-hosting companies. The one I went with (small pitch here - www.pair.com) (http://www.pair.com)) doesn't support Front Page on the basic accounts, (and even where they do, you have to specifically *ask* for FP extension support to be added) and doesn't support ColdFusion or ASP at all. Several of the other hosts I looked at charge extra for FP and ASP support. That kind of thing is going to drive a lot of people to start looking around at what else is out there, I think. That, and the fact that the hosts that DO support Windoze, or (godess-forbid-it!) actually RUN on an MS platform seem to be down a lot. (Gee, can't imagine why...)
Originally posted by VoidMain:
[QB]Do me a favor and take just a few seconds to look over some screen shots of a couple of the more popular GUI systems available for Linux (yes you have a choice):
http://www.kde.org/screenshots/index.html (http://www.kde.org/screenshots/index.html)
http://developer.gnome.org/dotplan/ (http://developer.gnome.org/dotplan/)
Thanks a lot. Do you know how hard it is to clean drool off a keyboard? <G> Still, as you noted, this entails researching and finding the window manager program I want to use, finding programs to do the things I want to do... all this is provided (at great cost, but with NO extra work required) in most Windoze pre-installs. The "extra work" - no matter that it's not hard work - just doesn't appeal to the nail-focused computer user who already has a functional (if not ideal) hammer in their toolbelt.
Karen
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quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
You *can* edit your posts. Click the ICON just to the left of the "" ICON above your message... The one of the pencil and paper.
[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]
Oh, geez. I thought that was the "post" icon! Thanks for the tip. I came ->|<- this close to committing myself to an Assisted Computing Facility...
http://www.satirewire.com/features/siliconpines/acf.shtml (http://www.satirewire.com/features/siliconpines/acf.shtml)
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quote:
Originally posted by Karen:
But, just out of curiosity, how much space would I need for a Linux partition on my 'puter?
I would suggest about 4GB minimum if you can spare it (but you can certainly install in a lot less than that). And I certainly don't want to rush you into this. If you don't have the time to spend with it, it may not get a serious evaluation.
quote:
Originally posted by Karen:
True, but I have to add, Linux and other altOS platforms could still be "out there" more than they are. Particularly in the arena where their best prospects already ARE - the web. You don't need a huge advertising budget.
This may shock you but what you refer to as the "altOS" has a bigger market share of the web than MS OSs have, as much as MS is trying to reverse this. Go look at the www.netcraft.com (http://www.netcraft.com) charts. You will see that Apache still has twice the web server market and virtually 0% of that Apache line is Apache/Win32. And I prefer to think of Win* has the "altOS". (-;
In fact in the good old days there was *no* Microsoft on the web, only UNIX. I was on the web before there was an Internet Explorer or a Netscape. I didn't get on in the beginning but I got on when the first graphical browser I new about was called "gopher" (and it was a text based graphical browser, but capable of hyperlinks/urls) and there was no HTTP protocol. Then the HTTP protocol was developed and the first Xwindows based graphical web browser I used was Mosaic (which I believe Microsoft took the source code for and and created Internet Explorer 1.0). Yeah, MS raped the university open source project to help really fan the monopoly flames. Thanks for nothin'!
There have been a good chunk of Linux web servers out there long before MS came out with the garbage known as IIS. MS does not yet have the monopoly on the web server end of things, and hopefully that will never change.
quote:
Originally posted by Karen:
They started putting up these flashing/animated/screaming banners that were so annoying that people started looking for software to block them.
I have been filtering ads for years with no special software installed on my desktops. I force all my desktops to go through my Proxy server (running on Linux) and it filters out all the ads. Another neat trick I do is create master zones in my DNS server for ".microsoft.com", ".msn.com", ".doubleclick.net", ".hitbox.com" etc, but with nothing in them. So every one of my home PCs believe that "www.microsoft.com" doesn't exist. Yep, as far as my computers are concerned, Microsoft doesn't exist.
Just the way it should be.
And I don't have to put up with the popup windows either. In KDE's Konqueror web browser there is an option to turn off JavaScript popups, or you can also set it to "ask" if you want the window to pop up. In fact I disable JavaScript entirely in my browser by default, and then specifically turn it on for the sites I trust.
quote:
Originally posted by Karen:
(OK, here's one of them - a screen shot of the "blue screen of death" with only the words "Resistance is NOT futile!" Would you click? More importantly, do you think a viewer who had recently encountered the BSOD would click? Of course, the page the click leads to is just as important. That's where you have to explain the easy GUIs and ease of installation in terms that won't scare off the "just looking, thanks" folks.)
Maybe the open source group should start recruiting an open source advertising team. They have plenty of programmers that volunteer their time and expertise, they also have lawyers. But I don't believe they have an advertising team. Actually, RedHat and other publically traded companies have advertising departments/budgets. But it would be cool if there were a "non-affiliated" advertising group. There are also many web sites out there dedicated to Linux.
quote:
Originally posted by Karen:
Still, as you noted, this entails researching and finding the window manager program I want to use, finding programs to do the things I want to do... all this is provided (at great cost, but with NO extra work required) in most Windoze pre-installs. The "extra work" - no matter that it's not hard work - just doesn't appeal to the nail-focused computer user who already has a functional (if not ideal) hammer in their toolbelt.
I don't remember noting that at all. All Linux distros that I have ever seen come with both of the GUI environments I gave you links to and you have the choice of using either at login time. And the distros come with all of the development tools you could probably ever want/need including the SQL databases (MySQL, PostgreSQL). And include Apache/php, perl, etc. And include a great program development environment (GCC, and Kdevelop which is much like Visual C++). Does Microsoft include a copy of SQL Server? Does it include a copy of Visual Studio? Does it include an Office suite? Nope, Linux includes 200 times more applications than MS does. And they can all be installed and up and running on your first boot after the Linux installation. But this is something you will have to see for yourself if/when you give it a try.
Again I don't want to push you to try it until you are mentally ready and have some time to play. The more you play, the more you will like, even if you are slightly frustrated and naive in the beginning. If you stick with it I can bet that you will come to a point when you say "and why was it again I ever used Microsoft? This is so much easier...".
Again, don't expect to have that attitude right out of the gate. Because something isn't exactly the same as MS when they boot Linux they may get frustrated but the lights usually come on rather quickly. And then if you get really froggy, you can go beyond the GUI. The Linux GUIs are actually more powerful than MS, but when/if you get beyond the GUI you will see *real* power. You can't experience that in Windows because they build their GUI on top of a cardboard box.
[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]
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ARRGGHH! My ISP went down in the middle of replying to you... for the REST OF THE DAY! Anyway...
quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
This may shock you but what you refer to as the "altOS" has a bigger market share of the web than MS OSs have, as much as MS is trying to reverse this. Go look at the www.netcraft.com (http://www.netcraft.com) charts.
Sorry, I said that badly - I meant that the altOSs should be "out there" in terms of telling their "story" to the people browsing websites. I knew that the majority of servers aren't MS products. (If I hadn't known it before, I certainly found it out when I was looking for a web host!)
But actually, the Netcraft charts show a bit of cause for concern in terms of the market share trend. The third chart on the chars page (http://www.netcraft.com/Survey/Reports/200201/graphs.html) "Market Share for Top Servers Across All Domains" seems to indicate that Microsoft is taking market share away from other systems since (guessing by the hashmarks) about the beginning of 2001. Their market share has been increasing since then, while all other systems have been decreasing (albeit slightly). This might not be as bad as it looks - there's not enough detail in the "methodology" section to be sure, but from what is there, every separate domain name is counted as a separate server - which means shared hosting servers like the ones I'm on would count as 10 or 15 servers.
IF (big if) the MS server solutions are attracting many small "personal" websites - people who might not have even considered trying it on a server that didn't support the Microsoft products they were used to - that graph could be providing a distorted picture of the actual *usage* of servers.
quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
Maybe the open source group should start recruiting an open source advertising team. They have plenty of programmers that volunteer their time and expertise, they also have lawyers. But I don't believe they have an advertising team. Actually, RedHat and other publically traded companies have advertising departments/budgets. But it would be cool if there were a "non-affiliated" advertising group. There are also many web sites out there dedicated to Linux.
This is an intriquing idea! Can't do anything about it right now, but if nobody steps up to the plate before I get some free time, I just might consider working on such a project.
quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
Originally posted by Karen:
Still, as you noted, this entails researching and finding the window manager program I want to use, finding programs to do the things I want to do
quote:
I don't remember noting that at all. All Linux distros that I have ever seen come with both of the GUI environments I gave you links to and you have the choice of using either at login time.
Sorry, my misunderstanding this time. When you were talking about which GUI you prefer, I thought you meant that when you got Linux, you had to also choose which GUI to use.
quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
And the distros come with all of the development tools you could probably ever want/need including the SQL databases (MySQL, PostgreSQL). And include Apache/php, perl, etc. And include a great program development environment (GCC, and Kdevelop which is much like Visual C++). Does Microsoft include a copy of SQL Server? Does it include a copy of Visual Studio? Does it include an Office suite? Nope, Linux includes 200 times more applications than MS does. And they can all be installed and up and running on your first boot after the Linux installation.
That's it! That's the "story" that needs to be put "out there" where the general browsing public can encounter it without searching (or going to "fuckmicrosoft" forums <G> ;) This is the point that needs to be ... er, hammered home whenever possible, to overcome the general misconception that non-MS operating systems (with the exception of Mac's of course) are something only a programmer could love. And this statement:
quote:
Linux includes 200 times more applications than MS does. And they can all be installed and up and running on your first boot after the Linux installation.
should be the CORE message of ANY marketing effort directed at J.Q. Public.
It'S a GREAT message. But, despite forums like this one and those devoted to Linux (or other altOSs, for that matter) it is NOT out there in any significant way.
Karen
[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Karen ]
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quote:
Karen said
This might not be as bad as it looks - there's not enough detail in the "methodology" section to be sure, but from what is there, every separate domain name is counted as a separate server - which means shared hosting servers like the ones I'm on would count as 10 or 15 servers.
Like I said, MS is trying to gain in this market like they are in every other market and have been making some success (not because they are better but because of advertising). And IIS can run multiple virtual servers just like Apache can (multiple domains) so it's hard to break it out into how many physical OS installations there are.
quote:
That's it! That's the "story" that needs to be put "out there" where the general browsing public can encounter it without searching (or going to "fuckmicrosoft" forums <G> This is the point that needs to be ... er, hammered home whenever possible, to overcome the general misconception that non-MS operating systems (with the exception of Mac's of course) are something only a programmer could love. And this statement:
Well, the word *is* out there. It's just not "hammered" down your throat like Microsoft software is. I wonder what percentage of the retail price of a copy of XP comes straight out of "your" pocket and straight into those commercials? And it's one of the reasons the customer can afford it. "Free" doesn't generate a lot of revenue for advertising.
And to me there is one *big* issue that needs some work before it will really appeal to the *home* desktop user (in addition to application vendors porting their desktop software to Linux). And that is the installation process itself. Linux has gotten a lot better and as a high level systems person that works fairly equally with Microsoft and *NIX operating systems I believe that Linux has the best package management and dependency system (Add/Remove programs). However I can see where it could be a nightmare for a new home user to comprehend.
Now, on the other hand, take someone like my father. The OS was installed when he got his computer (Win95). *I* am the one who has to install applications for him and upgrade his OS to Win98, etc. He couldn't create a shortcut if it jumped up and bit him in the nose. He loves his Solitaire and Web browser though. After the 400th time of talking him through updating his virus software and cleaning his system over the phone (he lives 300 miles from me) I started thinking. Why the hell don't I just install Linux for him next time. I won't have to worry about Viruses, Linux comes with many more and better Solitaire games. He won't be able to tell the difference when he's sending email and browsing the web. And he won't ever have to pay for another upgrade. I've still been too chicken to do it.
I've definately got a leg up in Linux experience and it is very easy for me, however because of that I can't really tell how easy Linux has gotten and have fears that it may not be as easy as I think. But I am encouraged by the youngsters on this site who have installed it, said it was easy, and said they were now very happy. You will hopefully be my next experiment. (http://smile.gif)
[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]
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I just read over the beginning of this thread again and realized we sorta got off subjet about 2.49% into the thread. Getting back to Apache/Win32 port and pondering some of what Karen has said on the off-track part of this thread I am starting to realize what the Apache developers have in mind (Karen may have revealed it in her first reply but I didn't fully understand until after the debate).
I now am starting to think that the Apache port to win32 is a good thing, and all of the other free software ports to win32 might be a good thing. Why? Eventually, everyone will be using free applications and tools rather than MS applications and tools and the only thing left will be that crappy OS underneath. When they find out there is a better (and free) hammer to go along with all those nice free nails they are using they would have no reason not to take that last step.
On the other hand, MS has a history of taking those applications, writing their own much crappier version and including it with their OS, and then claim that they invented it. Then where would we be? If nothing else it would prove that Open Source software is a good thing. It causes MS to improve their product (if they want to stay in the game). Hopefully my former vision will be the one that comes true...
[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]
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quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
I now am starting to think that the Apache port to win32 is a good thing, and all of the other free software ports to win32 might be a good thing. Why? Eventually, everyone will be using free applications and tools rather than MS applications and tools and the only thing left will be that crappy OS underneath. When they find out there is a better (and free) hammer to go along with all those nice free nails they are using they would have no reason not to take that last step.
On the other hand, MS has a history of taking those applications, writing their own much crappier version and including it with their OS, and then claim that they invented it. Then where would we be? If nothing else it would prove that Open Source software is a good thing. It causes MS to improve their product (if they want to stay in the game). Hopefully my former vision will be the one that comes true...
[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]
Just a quickie reply... read the stuff in the link at the end of the "Is it just me" thread about MS's "product activation" scheme. That might be the thing that breaks 'em - especially, as you say, if things like Apache/Win32 start showing people there IS an alternative. One thing that argues for your "vision" is that, once you start trying to install these things, you start hanging out in the sorts of forums where this information is available. I found this site through DevShed, which I've been reading for answers/advice/tutorials on setting up my "replica" of pair's DB managment setup.
Or as some famous songwriter said... "How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm after they've seen gay Paree?"
:D
Karen
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quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
Well, the word *is* out there. It's just not "hammered" down your throat like Microsoft software is.
You say that like advertising is a bad thing! <G> Seriously, that's part of the reason I got out of the field. There's too much bad advertising out there. Advertising, in and of itself, can be either a good thing - letting people know that a product/service is available, and what the *true* benefits might be - or a bad thing - supporting bad products through presenting a false image of what it is, and/or what its benefits are. And increasingly, the bad is "loud" enough to drown out most of the good kind. And the sad thing is, the people who start out trying to do the good kind feel compelled to compete with the bad kind, and they end up going over to the dark side too.
quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
And to me there is one *big* issue that needs some work before it will really appeal to the *home* desktop user (in addition to application vendors porting their desktop software to Linux). And that is the installation process itself. <snip> However I can see where it could be a nightmare for a new home user to comprehend.
Yeah, that would certainly have to be addressed. "Telling" people that it's going to be better and easier, then giving them a nightmare will do more harm than not promising them anything. Bad word-of-mouth flies faster and farther than good-word-of mouth, because when people are pissed (and/or feel they've been mislead) they get LOUD about it.
quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
Now, on the other hand, take someone like my father. The OS was installed when he got his computer (Win95). *I* am the one who has to install applications for him and upgrade his OS to Win98, etc. He couldn't create a shortcut if it jumped up and bit him in the nose. He loves his Solitaire and Web browser though.
Same with me and my mother - but I don't have nearly the background you do, so sometimes I end up "helping" by "sharing her pain" while we scratch our heads over it. As a matter of fact, I have to go up and install a new modem for her in the next week or so. I finally managed to find a external 56K that will "talk" to her old Win95/486 on her antiquated serial port! I am only hoping I don't have to change the initialization string, because I tossed my notes on the proper ones a couple of years ago.
quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
I've definately got a leg up in Linux experience and it is very easy for me, however because of that I can't really tell how easy Linux has gotten and have fears that it may not be as easy as I think. But I am encouraged by the youngsters on this site who have installed it, said it was easy, and said they were now very happy. You will hopefully be my next experiment. (http://smile.gif)
Well, as your next "project" I'll let you know how it feels from a barely-'puter-literate point of view when I get to the point where I can devote some time to installing it.
But first, I've got to get to the point of being ready to install it, so, to hasten that day... maybe you could answer a question for me??
The Apache server is installed, I'm running it as a console, got it "confined" to my local machine. I haven't put in the PHP module yet because I *think* I have a problem (or maybe it's the way it's supposed to be, and I just don't know it). When I start it up, I get the DOS window that says it's running, as expected... but I can't type anything into it. I finally got a list of the compiled-in modules by opening a second DOS window, navigating to the directory and typing the command there. The server window WILL accept the shutdown command (control+c), but that's it. Is that normal?
That's not the only problem - some of the other commands returned "bad command or filename, you idiot" (OK, I'm lying about the last part) but I'm probably just typing them in wrong, or have to navigate to a subfolder or something. The fact that the list module worked tells me that it's probably MY error, not something wrong with the server.
But at least (after a couple of uninstall/re-installs on both) MySQL finally "found" MyODBC, and they seem to be really happy together. They make a really cute couple, too.
Karen
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Hey, VoidMain... did I offend you somehow? If so, I'm sorry. And does this mean that I'm not going to be your next experiment? :(
Anyway, I just wanted to say that I solved my Apache problem. As usual (for me), it was user error.
Karen
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I'm sorry Karen, I missed your last post. And I don't get offended, I get even. (:
Now that I have read your last post I probably would not have been able to help you because after all, you are running Apache on Win32. If you had been running it on *NIX I would have been more than happy to help you.
And I certainly am looking forward to the experiment although I am nervous about it. (http://smile.gif) Glad to hear you got it going. Being familiar with the Apache config files will certainly be a plus when going to Linux (I prefer to edit them in a text editor to the graphical way because it is standard. The instructions that you can give at that level will work across all installations.
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quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
[qb]I'm sorry Karen, I missed your last post. And I don't get offended, I get even. (: [/b]
Ah, good! That's my preferred style of dealing with offensive people too. (Considering the fact that killing them leads to an inordinate amount of unpleasantness involving the police, that is.)
quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
Now that I have read your last post I probably would not have been able to help you because after all, you are running Apache on Win32.
It was just a stupid GUIdiot mistake. The problem was that none of the resource materials I read ever imagined that anybody could be that dumb.
quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
If you had been running it on *NIX I would have been more than happy to help you.
The word "incorrigible" once again springs to mind. (http://smile.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
And I certainly am looking forward to the experiment although I am nervous about it. (http://smile.gif)
Well, it will probably be a while, if I need 4 gigs - that's my whole hard drive, and I've only got about 1.7 gigs left. I've already uninstalled the bloatware Comcast put on my system, and I'm hoping to squeeze a little more out by clearing out the hidden files, but it still won't be enough. I'll probably have to wait until I'm ready to replace my computer - I was hoping to be able to convert before then, because I am NOT buying a machine with XP on it. Period.
I'm overdue, really - my CD drive is dying, and I can't get both the zip drive and the floppy to work at the same time. It's one or the other. I was hoping to just install a CD-RW and limp along for another year... don't have much use for floppies anyway, and with a RW, I wouldn't really NEED a zip drive.
BUT... there's still hope: I found a program called "WinLinux" - posted about it in the altOS section - that might get me started before I have to invest in a whole new system. If the whole thing isn't a scam or something that is.
quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
Being familiar with the Apache config files will certainly be a plus when going to Linux (I prefer to edit them in a text editor to the graphical way because it is standard. The instructions that you can give at that level will work across all installations.
That's good to know, because I did the whole thing in Notepad and I think I actually understood most of it. It's got great "comment-tation" and I also followed along with my "Apache for Beginners" book. It's more geared toward *nix users, but there are "tips" for Windows installation too. I'm planning to try to set up a test database tomorrow, and play with php a bit. I've taken a couple of days off - had to deal with critter problems yesterday, and had a root canal today. Which was LOTS of fun.
Really.
Wanna buy a bridge?
;)
Karen
[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: Karen ]
[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: Karen ]