Stop Microsoft
Operating Systems => Linux and UNIX => Topic started by: Sleeping Dog on 16 July 2002, 19:36
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In a couple of previous threads we have discussed the dilema regarding the non-existance of true high-end professional software for the LINUX platform. (Analogues or versions of software like AutoCAD and PhotoShop).
If sophisticated Windows games can be run on a Linux box, then why not Win versions of pro software? Being a novice, I have yet to try this. Therefore, I have an idea.
I just got my hands on an old Elpina/PC Chips based slot-one P-300 that I repaired and loaded with 96 MEG of mixed 70-ns memory (DIMMs and EDO. It now has two HD's....a 1.2 GIG WD and a 1.0 GIG Seagate. It has a 4-MEG SIS 6326 based video card and I have a second 4-MEG PCI Trident card for doing a Dual-monitor setup.
I also have old Windows versions of PhotoShop 5.5 and AutoCAD Rel. 13.
I WILL SET THIS BOX UP BASED ON YOUR VOTES AND INPUT! The only criteria are:
1. It needs to run fast and lean on Linux.
2. It needs to run those two Win programs (AutoCAD and PhotoShop).
3. It needs one more document generating program that can cleanly swap files with MS Word.
The hardware and software versions are all about five years old. Five years ago this would have been a hot screamin' system, even under Win 95. I designed a lot of industrial machinery, even in 3D on a similar system with only 64 MEG of RAM.
Please make suggestions/vote on the following:
1. The brand and version of LINUX to load.
2. The GUI to use.
3. How to set up the file structure on those two drives. PhotoShop needs 100 MEG of space and a minimum 300 MEG disk cashe area. AutoCAD needs 120 MEG of space.
4. The MS Word LINUX equivalent to load.
5. How to load and run all of the software.
6. The best method for Dual-monitor setup with those two cards (must be able to drag between them).
Over the next couple of weeks, I will watch this thread closely for your suggestions/votes and will set up this box based solely on YOUR GROUP INPUT (majority rules). I will also keep you well informed about how OUR PROJECT is progressing.
You guys have a marvelous wealth and depth of knowledge regarding the LINUX OS and all of its iterations.
THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO REALLY PUT YOUR HEADS TOGETHER ON A GROUP PROJECT. I will not make the decisions.....you will as a group. YOUR decisions will simply guide MY hands.
This could be fun.
Kindest Regards To ALL.
Sleeping Dog
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1. Personal preference on this one - what you know. I like BSD myself so can't make any real sugestions.
2. For the graphical nature of the work i would suggest GNOME.
3. The seagate with the OS and software on it and the WD holding files (i'm assuming large file size)
4. OpenOffice - imports and exports MS WORD files http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/source/features.html (http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/source/features.html)
5. Talk about that when we know what you are installing.
6. Can't help here as never set up dual monitor.
Is Photoshop completely necessary? as i would suggest running The GIMP http://www.gimp.org/the_gimp_about.html (http://www.gimp.org/the_gimp_about.html) This is a great program for Graphical Image Manipulation (hehehe) go have a look at their screenshots.
AutoCAD and such programs i know nothing about but i think you might have to run wine or winex for this and run the windows version...
hope this helps
[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: the_black_angel ]
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Thanks for the input/votes Black_Angel. The intent of the experiment is to run the Win versions of these two very different pieces of software under LINUX to see how they behave.
However, I am going to try GIMP on one of my other boxes. You are the second to suggest it as an alternative to PhotoShop and my curiosity is now peaked.
Thanks again for the suggestions/votes. They are noted and logged.
Best to you and yours.
Sleeping Dog
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As a confirmed Debian zealot, that's what I would reccomend as the O.S. Debian is really the only "free" O.S., both in cost and philosophy. I agree with the GIMP for graphics as opposed to Photoshop; I have both on my computer, and while the GIMP is a little harder to use, it's much more flexible. As far as a GUI, I would suggest two; my avorite liteweight WM is XFCE, it's fast and not overburdened with addons, IceWM is also very capable. MS Word replacement could only be Openoffice 1.01; it runs very stably on my Debian 3.0 (Woody) install, setting up my printer was not much of a chore, and, as with all open source projects, it's continually improving. A possible alternative would be AbiWord 1.0.
CAD is a lot harder; as I've mentioned before, the only ongoing Linux alternative to AutoCAD is LinuxCAD, and it's not open source. I'm not sure if you could get AutoCAD to run in WINE, but if you did, I don't think you'd be very happy with it.
The suggestions that I've made are based on capability of the various apps, my personal experience with them and the fact that, with one glaring exception (LinuxCAD), they are open source alternatives to Microsoft equivilants; to me, it's much more significant to create a viable system that's running as much open source sotware as possible, rather than using a Linux-based system to run closed source software.
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I agree you should not be consentrating on try to make windows programs run under Linux but find Alternatives that run native and are at an equal footing or better than their windows counter parts.
Thats why i suggested Gnome as the GUI as it was Built with GTK+ (Gimp toolkit) and still uses some of its files. If you run Gimp as your Graphics program you streamline all of these.
But with this issue in comes in KDE With its family of Apps ie Koffice, Konqueror, and Kdeveloop.
And also what you want out of it do you want it to look pretty or do you just want functunality?
I personally don't let any microsoft onto my system and it is alot stabler now :D
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That's two solid votes for GNOME and two for OpenOffice with other good suggestions running a close second.
Again, this is a specific experiment in running Win apps on a LINUX platform. That is why the dedicated box. (I have two other LINUX machines here in my office that are dedicated to LINUX only OS and application experiments/tryouts.)
I appreciate the reminder about LinuxCAD. I have researched it already, and a functional package is about 100 bucks. Here is what I wrote in another thread.
quote:
I do appreciate your input about LinuxCAD (I appreciate everyone's input).
LinuxCAD on a developmental level is about where AutoCAD was nearly 10 years ago in terms of its 3D capabilities. The package has not yet incorporated such things as 3D rendering or automated CNC tool pass utilities. It does, however, seem like a viable and affordable option for someone needing only the basics of CAD functionality.
One little chuckle that I did get from their website was this last line of the "Free Demo" order form.
LinuxCAD Intel PCs Free Demo Version - $35.00
Best to all of you.
Sleeping Dog
If we, as a group, can put together a viable way of running these rather expensive Win apps efficiently under LINUX, maybe more folks would be willing to start transitioning their OS's if they knew that they would not have to purchase an entirely new library of professional software. Trust me....that DOES get into the thousands...even sometimes for upgrades.
You guys are Great.
Sleeping Dog
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I strongly suggest BlackBox or KDE for teh GUI. KDE is more configurable than gnome (in my opinion). BlackBox will be screaming fast though.
OS- Redhat? Slackware? Debian?
You could try to run the windows version of GIMP on Linux?
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1)Debian
2)IceWM/KDE
3)photoshop and autocadon one drive, files on the other.
4)OpenOffice
5)build from source
6)don't know, never did two monitors.
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slackware is the distro if speed is what you want...
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On June 28, TUX did a post about setting up dual head display. Anybody willing to ask him if he wants to come out to play?
We need this project to be slick and fast and clean......
If you guys, by your input and "votes" make me build a LINUX box that hauls ass, looks good and runs expensive professional Win apps, then everybody will benefit.
I will put together a spreadsheet of "Who-votes-for-what" and post it here too. We will all benefit from the positive and negative pro and con reasons for using the different solution options.
Let the Fun Continue!
Sleeping Dog
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GUI- BlackBox
OS- Slackware
text editor- VI (who needs open office?)
I might try to setup dual monitors just to tell help you out.
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defiently would have to say openoffice. it works wonders with word files/*bastards at my school use word*/
i would recoment trying a custume compililed version of wine first. then i would try codeweavers wine, then i would say, fork over $15 for transgameing's winex. as for winex, it does run sophisticated games/*diablo II would count as sophistacated, and so would freespace I, i have heard other stories of people running quake3 under winex*/ there is also a group of people working on a version of wine to run biowares NWN toolset. i i can say is consume lots of caffiene and try try try and try again
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This is getting REALLY GOOD!
I will post a compilation of your votes/suggestions tomorrow and start configuring the box during the weekend.
First issue for you guys to direct my "hands on".
SETTING UP THE DRIVES.
ISSUE: Space for (whatever LINUX) OS you decide on.
partitions ?
how big?
put what where on which drive?
Remember....we have two 1 GIG drives and about a fat fourth of that space will be eaten by the apps.
If this old box we are building could speak, I think that it would say:
quote:
It's wonderful to be loved when you are this old and this ugly!
I'd rather laugh in my beer than cry in my champagne.
Sleeping Dog
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15 MB boot parition on the first drive at the beginning.
300MB swap at end of first drive?
the second drive only /usr (700MB) amd /home (300mb)?
I am by no means an exper on partitions. I didnt separate my redhat paritions, they are all under root expect for my boot partition.
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By the way.....CREEDON.....you are not OLD!
you are only 37 in HEX.
Be sure to put that on your resume'
Fun rules!
Sleeping Dog
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ok, as in another post, when space is limitaed, go with either debian/*woody i would presume,*/ or a slackware install, have maybe a 400 meg / partiions
and a whole gig drive as /usr
then on the rest of the drive with 400 meg, mount the rest as /stuff and install in there
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those arn't exact numbers however
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quote:
Originally posted by Master of Reality / Bob:
15 MB boot parition on the first drive at the beginning.
300MB swap at end of first drive?
the second drive only /usr (700MB) amd /home (300mb)?
I am by no means an exper on partitions. I didnt separate my redhat paritions, they are all under root expect for my boot partition.
if he'll be using an old box, he'll probably be using 2.x kernel.. Didn't the 2.2 kernel and below need the swap to be the second partion? So:
[hda1 /boot 15mb][hda2 /swap 300mb][hda3 690mb /home] [hdb2 rest /]
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nah, debian runs a 2.2 kernel right, and so does slackware. it doesn't matter i don't think as long as it knows where it is. thats the beauty of UN*X, it doesn't give a shit how the file/whatever is there, it just knows that it is there, this fact enables unix to do the kind of data plumbing that i have used it to do.
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quote:
Originally posted by choasmaster:
nah, debian runs a 2.2 kernel right, and so does slackware. it doesn't matter i don't think as long as it knows where it is. thats the beauty of UN*X, it doesn't give a shit how the file/whatever is there, it just knows that it is there, this fact enables unix to do the kind of data plumbing that i have used it to do.
I'm running Woody with the 2.4.18 kernel, and ext3 file system, something I would suggest for the project; ext3 seems to be pretty stable, and theres a definite speed difference when you startup.
Sleeping Dog: My kids gave me a 7-CD-ROM set of Debian 3.0 for Fathers day: if you would like I could burn you a set; it means NO downloads- there's something like 6500 packages on the set. They were made from te ISO image of 6/10/02, so they're pretty current. If you're interested, let me know and we'll set something up.
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oopss, i meant r2.2.6 or something like that, the "stable" version of it/*for as much beta software as i run, its still more stable then a windows box*/ i know that woody is on the bleeding edge, but i don't think it would like the pentium 60mhz too much
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quote:
Originally posted by choasmaster:
oopss, i meant r2.2.6 or something like that, the "stable" version of it/*for as much beta software as i run, its still more stable then a windows box*/ i know that woody is on the bleeding edge, but i don't think it would like the pentium 60mhz too much
I'm not sure how Woody would react; that's one of the beauties of the new install, there's 5 (I think) methods to setup, and you can start with the 2.2 kernel- my box could handle the 2.4.xx series, so I opted for the latest version, but I think a minimal install with the 2.2.xx kernel would operate just fine; there is one sticking point; Xwindow- Woody comes with XFree86-4.1, but I think that earlier versions are included and can be setup at install. BTW; most folks don't talk about Debian and "bleeding edge" in the same breath; "bleeding edge" for Debian would be unstable-Sid (Still In Development) and even Sid is tame by other distros criteria; Debians big selling point (other than apt-get) for me is the stability; the developers are down right anal about stability, and it shows. You won't see the latest and greatest available in the package selection until the developers have wrung it out pretty severely, and even then, they'll be patching it for a while; you'll see instances of bug reports about a problem reported by one user, and the Debian Q.C. team takes that as seriously as a thousand users; they want Debian to do exactly what it should and give no users any problems; that's pretty impressive for a bunch of unpaid volunteers, huh?
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Here is where we are so far regarding these four criteria: 1-The OS 2-The GUI 3-"Word" analogue 4-Windows emulation method for running the two apps.
The following list gives each participant's choices for these four. Multiple suggestions/votes are ranked in order.Please let me know if I have made any errors regarding the selections that you suggested or their rankings. If I was unsure about a category, I placed a (_?_) in that space.
We may have more people join in before the end of the day on Friday. ALL ARE WELCOME TO PARTICIPATE! I will start setting up the box during the weekend based on your majority decisions if everything is in place.
Please also be considering how you want me to partition hda and hdb.
[B}the_black_angel[/B] 1-BSD 2-GNOME/KDE 3-OpenOffice 4-(_?_)
creedon 1-Debian(Woody) 2-WM/XFCE/IceWM 3-OpenOffice/AbiWord 4-WINE/Xwindow
M.o.R./Bob 1-SlackWare/RedHat/Debian 2-BlackBox/KDE 3-VI 4-(_?_)
TheQuirk 1-Debian 2-IceWM/KDE 3-OpenOffice 4-(_?_)
cloudstrife 1-SlackWare 2-(_?_) 3-(_?_) 4-(_?_)
chaosmaster 1-Debian(Woody)/Slackware 2-(_?_) 3-(_?_) 4-WINE
Have a Great Week.
Sleeping Dog
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Anybody in touch with Tux?
I understand that he may have one dual monitor solution.
Someone else said that they would help with the dual head config. Was that Creedon? I will have to look back.
Here again....this is an experiment in Moving people from Windows to LINUX without them having to buy new software.
I wish that the MESwas involved in this too. He knows about what I have tried to do with these old boxes and why.
Film at 11:00
Sleeping Dog
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ah, for the window mangager/gui, i would recomend windowmaker.its light wieght and sweet at the same time,and highly configureable. and i loads from kdm, in less then 4 seconds/*never timed it exactly*/ and it runs great on my 60mhz pentium system
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i would say XFce for the GUI, a good compromise between ease of use and non-over-the-toppage.
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Here is an updated list of your choices for the four criteria: 1-The OS 2-The GUI 3-"Word" analogue 4-Windows emulation method for running the two apps. Again, please let me know if I have made any errors regarding the solutions that you have offered.
the_black_angel 1-BSD 2-GNOME/KDE 3-OpenOffice 4-(_?_)
creedon 1-Debian(Woody) 2-WM/XFCE/IceWM 3-OpenOffice/AbiWord 4-WINE/Xwindow
M.o.R./Bob 1-SlackWare/RedHat/Debian 2-BlackBox/KDE 3-VI 4-(_?_)
TheQuirk 1-Debian 2-IceWM/KDE 3-OpenOffice 4-(_?_)
cloudstrife 1-SlackWare 2-(_?_) 3-(_?_) 4-(_?_)
choasmaster 1-Debian(Woody)/Slackware 2-WindowMaker 3-(_?_) 4-WINE
Calum 1-(_?_) 2-XFE 3-(_?_) 4-(_?_)
More votes/suggestions for partitioning hda and hdb would also be welcome.
So far, Debian (Woody install) is in the lead for the OS version with Slackware running a very close second. I will take Creedon up on his offer to make copies of the OEM CD's and send them to me if Debian is still in the lead by the end of the day. (I will reimburse for any CD-R and shipping costs.)
This is getting better all the time....Shall we call this the Proxy Box?.
You guys are Super...
Sleeping Dog
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So far, Debian (Woody install) is in the lead for the OS version with Slackware running a very close second. I will take Creedon up on his offer to make copies of the OEM CD's and send them to me if Debian is still in the lead by the end of the day. (I will reimburse for any CD-R and shipping costs.)
This is getting better all the time....Shall we call this the Proxy Box?.I like the name- sounds good. As far as the CD's go, let me know here on the forum if you want them, and then we can make arrangements to get them to you; it'll most likely be about a week to get all 7 brned and mailed to you. If you want to get an idea what's contained on the CD's go to Debians website and click on packages>testing (That's Woody)>all packages; there's well over 6000 packages in the distro, and they're all on the 7 CD's, including all the WM's we've discussed (there maybe a few packages that have been released since these ISO's were made, but it would be very few; Woody is at the "frozen" stage).
I'm going to reiterate my chice for WN; XFCE. I'm saying this because, with limited resources, XFCE performs the best. I've got 512 Mb. of PC-133 on my box, so I don't worry too much, but didn't you indicate that you only had 64 Mb for the project box? If that's right, using KDE and WINE at the same time would make for a VERY slow computer.
You guys are Super...
Sleeping Dog[/QB][/QUOTE]
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VOTING ON THE OS FOR THE "PROXY BOX" WILL CLOSE AT MIDNIGHT TONIGHT (PTD)
We want to be fair to the West Coast and Aussie interests.
The Debian solution, if it wins, will require a one week turn around for Creedon to burn and ship it to me. Any other winner may require download time. Fortunately, I have a cable broadband connection.
REMEMBER....I AM JUST THE HANDS PUTTING THIS THING TOGETHER.....IT IS YOURS MORE THAN MINE.
Again.....this project is focused on running high end software, that was originally designed for Windows, on a LINUX platform.
The ISSUES for this coming week's input will be:
1. - How do you want the hda and hdb (1.0 and 1.2 GIG) hard drives formatted and partitioned? (You will need about 100 MEG of space for the PhotoShop App. and a minimum of 300 MEG of swap space. AutoCAD needs about 120 MEG of space minimum....maybe another 100 meg for drawing files.)
2. - What Windows emulation alternative will be optimum for these applications. (PhotoShop 5.5 and AutoCad Rel.13)
There already seems to be a consensus on using OpenOffice for the other app., so , unless there is any major objection, we will call that issue a done deal.
This project is open to EVERYONE on this forum, so if you have positive input on the earlier questions or the upcoming decisions, please let us hear from you. All OPINIONS ARE WELCOME!
Gotta' Go For Now...
My girlfriend just called and she won't take "yes" for an answer.
Sleeping Dog
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A correction - on Item #2.
Calum 1-(_?_) 2-XFce 3-(_?_) 4-(_?_)
SD
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Openoffice defiantly, i think i already said the partitinoing i would use
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The votes/suggestions for partitioning and drive assignments that have come in so far are the following quotes. More details, suggestions and ideas are encouraged in that I am going to follow the instructions of the majority for this project.{/B]
Quoted from earlier in the thread:
Master of Reality / Bob
15 MB boot parition on the first drive at the beginning.
300MB swap at end of first drive?
the second drive only /usr (700MB) amd /home (300mb)?
I am by no means an exper on partitions. I didnt separate my redhat paritions, they are all under root expect for my boot partition.
choasmaster
ok, as in another post, when space is limitaed, go with either debian/*woody i would presume,*/ or a slackware install, have maybe a 400 meg / partiions
and a whole gig drive as /usr
then on the rest of the drive with 400 meg, mount the rest as /stuff and install in there.
TheQuirk
if he'll be using an old box, he'll probably be using 2.x kernel.. Didn't the 2.2 kernel and below need the swap to be the second partion? So:
[hda1 /boot 15mb][hda2 /swap 300mb][hda3 690mb /home] [hdb2 rest /]
MORE INPUT, ANYONE?
Best to ya'
Sleeping Dog
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/dev/hda1 /boot 50MB
/dev/hda2 swap 256MB (depends on how much RAM you have and what you are using the box for)
/dev/hda3 / (rest of disk).
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Where you stand now:
Master of Reality / Bob
15 MB boot parition on the first drive at the beginning.
300MB swap at end of first drive?
the second drive only /usr (700MB) amd /home (300mb)?
I am by no means an exper on partitions. I didnt separate my redhat paritions, they are all under root expect for my boot partition.
choasmaster
ok, as in another post, when space is limitaed, go with either debian/*woody i would presume,*/ or a slackware install, have maybe a 400 meg / partiions
and a whole gig drive as /usr
then on the rest of the drive with 400 meg, mount the rest as /stuff and install in there.
TheQuirk
if he'll be using an old box, he'll probably be using 2.x kernel.. Didn't the 2.2 kernel and below need the swap to be the second partion? So:
[hda1 /boot 15mb][hda2 /swap 300mb][hda3 690mb /home] [hdb2 rest /]
VoidMain
/dev/hda1 /boot 50MB
/dev/hda2 swap 256MB (depends on how much RAM you have and what you are using the box for)
/dev/hda3 / (rest of disk).
This is GREAT!
In the words of the sage....."Cummon'....hurt me....beat me....make me write bad checks!
Just kidding.....but this is really getting better all of the time.
I ran some DOS level tests on the memory modules and this box may be restricted to 64 Meg unless I stumble across more free RAM. (bank zero showed errors on third pass...could be slot problems or chip....don't know yet...probably chips. For now, it is a 64 MEG box that works clean.)
Think 64 and go from there.....any bump up that I might luck up on will just be an added bonus.
All the better in a way....that forces the issue again back to fast and clean.
Good Work Folks!
Sleeping Dog
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Again...a reminder about the focus of this experiment for those who might have just joined the thread:
quote:
If we, as a group, can put together a viable way of running these rather expensive Win apps efficiently under LINUX, maybe more folks would be willing to start transitioning their OS's if they knew that they would not have to purchase an entirely new library of professional software. Trust me....that DOES get into the thousands...even sometimes for upgrades.
If people have both bucks AND stability as a reason to move....they will move.
We are treading fresh ground with this little experiment....Maybe we can mark the path and show the way?
Sweet dreams to all.
Sleeping Dog
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I don't want to run Win apps under Linux. I would rather have those apps ported to linux and run them natively. Send mail to the vendors. They do read them and I find most of them are on the fence with it. The more requests they get the more likely they are to port. But then I would rather use an open source app if at all possible.
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VoidMain...You good kind soul...We all AGREE with your sentiment. That is the purpose of this project.
If we can SHOW DEFINATIVELY that intelligent people are willing to exert REAL EFFORT to run Win versions of apps under LINUX because LINUX is faster, friendlier and more stable, then maybe the goobers who control the development bucks at some of the software companies like Adobe and AutoDesk will loosen the pursestrings a little and start porting this stuff to LINUX for their own good and ours too.
(Sorry for the long sentence. My high school English teacher would have pulled out her whip after reading that one.)
Again....the intent of this experiment....make Win versions of Pro software run fast and clean under LINUX.
If this really works good....we can send the info out and have even more people transitioning their OS to LINUX that much sooner. Do you see now?
This project for all of us is just a micro-step toward changing the world. At least it is a step in a positive direction.
Keep the faith, Amigo.
Sleeping Dog
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Just a thought about how hard drives work (and you folks probably know this already.)
The fastest access to any data on a HD will be what gets written first on the outer edges of the plates. Needless to say, we probably want the boot sector on the outer edge....or do we? If it is small....between 15 and 50 as some have suggested, then the time necessary for the RW heads to move to the INSIDE of the platter becomes a minor consideration during boot. After that, the major functions of the OS and BIOS are cashed in the RAM so it should not be a killer slow down during the functioning of the app that we are running.....or will it?
Should the swap area designated for a swap-intensive application like PhotoShop be placed on the outer (fastest) edges of the HD? On a hardware speed level, I would say YES....but there is so much that I don't know about how LINUX really works that I totally leave this question for you folks to answer.
This is beginning to feel like what we used to do tuning a small displacement race-car engine.
Sleeping Dog
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PS
choasmaster I apologise for mis-typing your name earlier in the thread.
I looked at it and saw chaos...master and thought " Wow....cool name"
See what I get for being dislectic....
What does Choas mean? I am culturally illeterate and need to be educated about these things so that I don't offend people. Please let me know....usually when I have a "leg-up" it's because I have my own foot in my mouth.
Be kind to Old People - they now have all of the money.
Sleeping Dog
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ahh, thats ok,
the story behind the name, involve's chaos/*with the a first*/ in action that me being a touch typist at over 60 words a minute UNCORRECTED. i happend to think up of chaosforages and went to reqister it on aim. but i misplace the a with the o. infact, i used to be choasforages on this board too, untill my passwd screwed up and wouldn't let me log back on. im trying to get the webmaster to help sort this out.
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As a matter of information, Debian 3.0 Woody has been re-designated as the "stable" distribution of Debian as of 7/19/2002 after 1 year and 11 months of development. What was "Sid" (still in development) is now "testing" Sarge. "Sid" will always be "Sid", the distribtions ar named for the characters in the "Toy Story" movies.
BTW; I still like XFCE!!!
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i really really really like windowmaker, and for toystory, i love that movie
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quote:
Originally posted by choasmaster:
i really really really like windowmaker, and for toystory, i love that movie
Yeah, I finally got to watch Toy Story 2 last night; kind of a coincidence, huh?
Anyway, I'd like a clarification about the project.
It's pretty much a given that this project is oriented toward businss applications n a professional level. That is most likely the biggest hurdle that Linux has to get over before there is general acceptance of Linux as a viable alternative to a commercial O.S. (read: Windows). I think that everybody involved can agree on that point.
My question is this: Do we want to create a suite of apps that consist of native Linux apps that are capable of daily use on a commercial level, and where such apps don't exist, use an emulation app to run Windows programs under Linux to complete the suite.
OR:
Create a suite of native Linux applications that cover ALL commercial applications, including word processing, accounting, scientific applications, technical applications, etc.?
The reason I ask this is kind of hard to explain, but if you've got the time to read this drivel, I'll continue.
Sleeping Dog has mentioned, on a couple of occasions, applications that seem to be oriented toward the machining industry, specifically CAD and CNC; well, this is an area close to my heart, I've worked in the industry for about 35 years, both as a machinist and now, as a Q.C. tech. At the moment, I'm working for a manufacturer of aircraft hydraulic controls in upstate N.Y. We are currently incorporating a product line from a recent aquisition which will require a major change in our manufacturing capabilities. My current assignment is to calibrate all the gages from this aquisition, and incorporate them into our ISO 9001 tracking system. My (personal) concern is one of my most important calibration tools. a Pratt & Whitney Model C Supermicrometer.
This device uses a DOS-based recording program that will only run on WIN95A or older. This is becoming a concern to me, because Pratt & Whitney has no plans to upgrade their program; they are eliminating the Model C from their product line. There are THOUSANDS of these in use, but they will soon be obsoleted, not because they can't do the job any longer, but because the software that operates them can't be updated. It strikes me that this isn't an isolated case. I think that there are a huge number of perfectly capable machining tools that only lack software to be productive pieces of equipment.
While my specific problem is something I'll be able to deal with, it strikes me that Linux proponants are missing out on a great opportunity. Maybe it might be a good idea to look in that direction for our project; wouldn't it be great to offer an inexpensive solution to small manufacturing operations that would allow them to continue to use equipment that is mechanically in good shape, but lacks software to be usable? That would be a hell of an incentive to switch to open source, wouldn't it?
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i know, cad and cnc was pretty fun when i gave it a shot with the schools reallysmall cnc lathe, i almost made a big pointy bar of metal/*now that would solve a few of my social problems :mad: */ out of all the old 100mhz machines in the lab, it was the only one running dos. speciatly apps are a bitch, and i personaly think that they should be open source so that equipment could be used for a very long time, cuase most machining machines i have seen are built to like last forever. i guess they just want to sell new equipment
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and i noticed that you are going to use autocad r13, i noticed on www.winehq.com (http://www.winehq.com) that r14 is rated better under wine then under native windows
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quote:
Originally posted by choasmaster:
and i noticed that you are going to use autocad r13, i noticed on www.winehq.com (http://www.winehq.com) that r14 is rated better under wine then under native windows
Well, here comes the Debian freak again!!
As I was updating my apt sources today, I went to a site called UNOFFICIAL apt sources (applications that aren't included in Debians package lists). While looking around, I found an app called LeoCAD. Now, this isn't something that would work as a commercial-use application, and I want to stress that. BUT, the groundwork IS done on a 3-D open source CAD program. I know that a lot of basic CAD applications exist for Linux, but none of them are at a daily-use level that could be used in place of the current (and much more polished) Microsoft- based systems. I'm not avocating starting an endless attempt to build a suite of seamless professional Linux applications that will work out-of-the-box like MS programs, but I would like to see an initiative that would allow us to incorporate native Linux apps to replace emulated MS programs as they become available. This has been one of the areas of opportunity that has been ignored by Linux proponents as far as I can see. As long as projects like this look at emulation of MS programs as an open-ended solution to the lack of professional-level technical applications, the basic attraction of Linux from a business viewpoint will remain un-attractive; what's the point of making the switch to Linux if you still have to maintain a library of Windows programs because Linux doesn't have comparable applications? In business, the bottom line is ALWAYS the bottom line. It's short-sighted to look at emulation as a long-term solution to a lack of applications.
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but it is great for the shortterm. if you could only switch 90% of your app's to linux and could only emulate the other 10%, i still think that would be worth it. and have you ever looked into pro e/*probably not, its insanly expensive*/
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OOPS, I don't want anyone to get the idea that I'm not 100% behind this poject, on the contrary, I think that it's a long over due idea; but I DO think that we have to look ahead; like Trotsky said, the revolution will never end, but must continue to evolve.
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and for building and endless suite of linux applications, don't we have openoffice, its almost endless/*if your thinking about compiling it that is :D */ and it supports lots of things. i think we need opensource analogues of this stuff. and who knows, someone might have phun writnig a cad program. and the opensource cad program might get so damned good major companinies might base there products off of it. kinda like the relationship between sun and openoffice.org. but then agian for this to happen, people are going to have to say "lets write a kickass cad program that can compete and beat autocad and maybe even pro e" and for cad workstations, the solarise admin/*atleast that's what his job sounds like*/ that lives down the street, i heard they bought a cad workstation from sun a bit ago and it cost them like $60,000
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I agree with the sentiments.
In this case, making PhotoShop 5.5 and AutoCAD 13 run under LINUX is akin to keeping the "Model C Supermicrometer" operational. The words "software" and "tools" are synonymous. I selected AutoCAD 13 because I happen to have a full copy of it on floppies and I do not personally own a later version.
High-end software has not, to date, been ported to LINUX for two reasons. 1. - The development community presently lacks high-speed, GUI type tools for doing the porting. Most of work of that nature is still being done on a pure code (slower) level. 2. - Until there are A LOT more business people using LINUX as their PRIMARY DESKTOP AND SERVER OS solution, the economic incentives for transitioning will not be there. Money moves the machines.
Therefore, a project like this one serves as a First Step in demonstrating that a transition to LINUX does not mean that a person or business has to "re-tool" and trash all of their existing software/tools in order to make the move. You (and Trotsky) are right, Creedon. "...the revolution will never end, but must continue to evolve." Regretably, the evolution seems to me moving like a herd of turtles.
Rumor has it that ProE (a high end professional 3D
CAD)is supposed to be releasing a LINUX/UNIX version in late fall. The five day intorductory course for ProE costs 15-Thousand Dollars(US) per person. That does not include any software. You can imagine what the software costs per license. In these tougher economic times, you will not find a lot of business throwing bucks at new or updated software while the bean-counters are telling the managers to "keep costs down".
On a lighter note....Any more input on setting up/partitioning hda and hdb? What do you guys think regarding the locations on those HD's of the boot, root, swap, etc. partitions? Should the partition holding the Win apps be FAT 32?
Best To All Of You
Sleeping Dog
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for the companies buy Pro e, price is not a concern. the bean counters are probably too busy cooking the books anyway
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quote:
Originally posted by Sleeping Dog:
I agree with the sentiments.
In this case, making PhotoShop 5.5 and AutoCAD 13 run under LINUX is akin to keeping the "Model C Supermicrometer" operational. The words "software" and "tools" are synonymous. I selected AutoCAD 13 because I happen to have a full copy of it on floppies and I do not personally own a later version.
High-end software has not, to date, been ported to LINUX for two reasons. 1. - The development community presently lacks high-speed, GUI type tools for doing the porting. Most of work of that nature is still being done on a pure code (slower) level. 2. - Until there are A LOT more business people using LINUX as their PRIMARY DESKTOP AND SERVER OS solution, the economic incentives for transitioning will not be there. Money moves the machines.
Therefore, a project like this one serves as a First Step in demonstrating that a transition to LINUX does not mean that a person or business has to "re-tool" and trash all of their existing software/tools in order to make the move. You (and Trotsky) are right, Creedon. "...the revolution will never end, but must continue to evolve." Regretably, the evolution seems to me moving like a herd of turtles.
Rumor has it that ProE (a high end professional 3D
CAD)is supposed to be releasing a LINUX/UNIX version in late fall. The five day intorductory course for ProE costs 15-Thousand Dollars(US) per person. That does not include any software. You can imagine what the software costs per license. In these tougher economic times, you will not find a lot of business throwing bucks at new or updated software while the bean-counters are telling the managers to "keep costs down".
On a lighter note....Any more input on setting up/partitioning hda and hdb? What do you guys think regarding the locations on those HD's of the boot, root, swap, etc. partitions? Should the partition holding the Win apps be FAT 32?
Best To All Of You
Sleeping Dog
I'm in full agreement with what you said. I don't want to give any kind of negative impression, I'm a Linux advocate to the core. That being said, I do have a habit of acting as "Devils Advocate"; I think that all projects need someone to point out alternatives in choice- there's no plan that's set in stone, that kind of thinking will end up causing problems. On the other hand, if someone can give me hard facts that convince me they're right, I'll give them as much co-operation as I can.
The one undeniable fact about open source software is that there are a tremendous number of really good people writing really good applications continually. The other undeniable fact about open source is that, ever though the first statement is true, the information that an individual (or, in our case, group of individuals)needs may never reach their notice. Finding specific open source applications is difficult; there's little commonality between the distributions, and the advocates of those distributions. When you start talking source code, the situation becomes even more confused.
I firmly believe that there is a viable alternative to every MS-based program on the market today. I also think that, reverting to our project, that practical implimentation of a pure open source suite of business/technical applications isn't possible AT THIS TIME. I think that, in the interest of expediency, some of our applications will have to be emulations of MS programs, but I want to leave that open-ended: if one of the members of the project finds a suitable alternative to an emulated MS program, we should, as a body, review the alternative and using majority rules approve or disapprove it's use in preference to an MS program.
Well, I guess I've shot my mouth off enough (I do that, it's the old hippie activist in me). I'm not really the overbearing asshole I seem to be, and I think I've wandered far afield from our original concept, but I'm just expressing things from my own limited perspective.
Sleeping Dog, the wheels are turning; you'll have the Debian set as soon as I can get it to you, I'll be in touch.
BTW: regarding partitioning, I think that the only thing that we should be concerned about would be /usr/local; that's where the most things we need to be concerned about reside: swap would be 2X the installed RAM.
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Hi Folks.....I'm back. Had to go out of town for a couple of days and was unable to post.
An update on the Proxy Box. 64 MB of RAM is the best I can do for now. I thought that I would be able to use a 64 and a 32 for a total of 96, but the 64 module has a bad chip on it. Therefore, two 32's will have to do.
According to the BIOS, I should be able to boot from the HD, the flop or the CD. I have DrDOS on it now for utility purposes, but it does not have to stay there.
Creedon is sending the Debian CD's to me. I will let you guys know when they arrive so that we can start the load. Again....I will need everyone's input on your partitioning plan. (sizes, locations, etc. for hda and hdb)
Have a Great Week
Sleeping Dog
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Just A Note About PhotoShop
PhotoShop caches the images that are open into a disk area that they refer to as "Scratch Disks". Because this is a "Windows" version of the software, it will be "looking for" this space using the DOS type C:\ file structure. High res images can sometimes require as much as 400+ meg of "Scratch Disk" space while they are being edited. Therefore, your formatting and disk structuring strategy will need to take this into account.
And A Note About AutoCAD
AutoCAD's auto-save (backup) function, by default, also looks for a DOS style path (C:\etc.etc)
I double-checked on the sizes of the two apps. The AutoCAD program needs 300 MB of space and PhotoShop needs 100 MB (not including the scratch disk area). A one Gig DOS style partition on the 1.2 Gig HD might be what is needed for the two apps to have all the room that they require.
Cheers and Beers
Sleeping Dog
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Hi Boys and Girls.
Can you spell "Plotter".
Very good....I knew you could....
For the Proxy Box we have a new (old) toy to add. It is a Calcomp 1044 Plotter (pen plotter).
Be looking for LINUX or even UNIX drivers that will work with this dog. I can tell you that almost all UNIX or even NT server based platforms will require a "plot to file" type setup if not a true spooler.....
but that is for later...
Creedon is sending the disks....once we are good and loaded, then the real fun begins.
(Isn't that what she always says?)
Keep it Close
Sleeping Dog
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One more note on the Calcomp Plotter.
The AutoCAD driver for it is stored and used within AutoCAD itself. The only thing that might be necessary is to assure that the plotter's COM port on the LINUX box (in this case, COM2) is set up with 7,E,1 and Hardware. (That's 7 Bits, Even parity, 1 Stop Bit and Hardware Control). That is the only caveat that I have found so far.
Sleeping Dog
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The Debian CD's are done; I'm checking them out before I send them, but we should be talking install in about a week.
I've been looking at a window manager called "Matchbox"; it's full featured , but it will run on a hand-held- VERY sparing of resources. I've also been investgating Beowulf Clusters; some interesting stuff there.
It's really amazing the applications that exist, yet get little or no publicity; sure, some of 'em are crap, but Richard Stallman's right about one thing- if a programmer takes the time to write an application that he KNOWS won't make him rich, but he writes it anyway, he'll do the best job he can, because he's writing it out of dedication, not greed.
Het everyone: let's see some Googlesearch action; start looking for those applications; you know, the ones that are open source and perform better tha closed-source MS- based programs. We can make a significant difference here: let's PROVE that Linux can be a viable business alternative to expensive, unreliable, intrusive Microsoft systems, and it will run on "obsolete" equipment and STILL perform. We can do this!!
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The Debian CD's are done; I'm checking them out before I send them, but we should be talking install in about a week.
I've been looking at a window manager called "Matchbox"; it's full featured , but it will run on a hand-held- VERY sparing of resources. I've also been investgating Beowulf Clusters; some interesting stuff there.
It's really amazing the applications that exist, yet get little or no publicity; sure, some of 'em are crap, but Richard Stallman's right about one thing- if a programmer takes the time to write an application that he KNOWS won't make him rich, but he writes it anyway, he'll do the best job he can, because he's writing it out of dedication, not greed.
Het everyone: let's see some Googlesearch action; start looking for those applications; you know, the ones that are open source and perform better tha closed-source MS- based programs. We can make a significant difference here: let's PROVE that Linux can be a viable business alternative to expensive, unreliable, intrusive Microsoft systems, and it will run on "obsolete" equipment and STILL perform. We can do this!!
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>OOPS!!< Sorry 'bout the double post; I got excited. I'd like to stay and chat, but I gotta go change my britches. 'bye
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quote:
Originally posted by Ex Eleven / b0b:
Anyway the best office appliations are:
All in one: StarOffice, Open Office, kOffice
Typing: AbiWord
Spreadsheet: gNumeric
Finance: GNUcash
My favorite desktop is GNOME, I Like windowmaker and fvwm too, and love blackbox but Gnome is more configurable than KDE/qt and the same goes for swfish which is the best Window Maniger.[/b]
I like all your ideas; personally, I'm real impressed with OpenOffice. The biggest hurdle that we have is the amount of RAM available; it used to be that 64 Mb was a shithouse of memory (I have a copy of Slack 2.03 that says it can run on 2 Mb!!) Unfortueatly, the MS bloat philosophy has spread to Linux to some extent. 64 Mb will run a fairly fast home unit, but we're looking at a system that's going to be running some RAM-intensive business app's; short of a complete CLI system, I think we've got to forego ANY eye-candy, that's why I'm reccomending we take a long look at Matchbox 0.3x11. Granted, it's beta software, but it's specifically built to be used on machines that have a limited amount of resources (RAM). From what I've seen of it, I'm impressed. I may D/L it today and give it shot on my "testing" partition, I will post my results.
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quote:
Originally posted by Ex Eleven / b0b:
Not that i have (too much) against KDE, but...
Ba hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
GNOME is GTK based which is Open Source, Qt is not.
ha hahahaha
I just fell ass-over-tit from this!
Uh, you are quite some time behind the times. Qt has been "open source" from the beginning and has been under the GPL for over 2 years now (since Qt 2.2):
http://www.kde.org/whatiskde/qt.html (http://www.kde.org/whatiskde/qt.html)
[ August 03, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]
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An Update Note
I should be receiving the OS CD's this week. I will also post the update of the group's decisions regarding the format and load strategy by or before Sunday night.
Have A Great Weekend.
Sleeping Dog
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Hey Sleeping Dog; Guess what I found! Go to http://www.linuxgazette.com/issue33/naden.html (http://www.linuxgazette.com/issue33/naden.html)
I think that you'll find it quite interesting- Vive La open source!!
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Also give a peek at http://www.opencascade.com/ (http://www.opencascade.com/)
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I was about to post that same product! I read about it in the "designnews.com" paper catalog! Anyway, read about it in the link creedon sent you. It's a mechanical CAD package. Enter "604" at the designernews.com site, and you can download a trial version at varicad.com.
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Just came in for a minute and am headed back out for another Monday meeting.
I will check it out when I get back.
thank you and Cheers to all.
Sleeping Dog
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quote:
Originally posted by Ex Eleven / b0b:
Not that i have (too much) against KDE, but...
Ba hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
GNOME is GTK based which is Open Source, Qt is not.
ha hahahaha
I just fell ass-over-tit from this!
quote:
Subject: Re: KDE/GNOME Holy Wars: Can you help?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:00:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Linus Torvalds
To: Steve Hutton
On Fri, 10 Jul 1998, Steve Hutton wrote:
>
> At this point it is certain that neither KDE
> or GNOME is going to go away in the near future.
> The question is whether they will ever co-exist
> in peace. It is my personal belief that the
> backlash against KDE has been a bit too harsh:
Personally, I like KDE better than gnome right now, on the strength of
pretty user interface and it working better. I personally use neither,
though. I know there has been a lot of silly license flamage, and I don't
particularly like it.
My opinion on licenses is that "he who writes the code gets to chose his
license, and nobody else gets to complain". Anybody complaining about a
copyright license is a whiner.
The anti-KDE people are free to write their own code, but they don't have
the moral right to complain about other people writing other code. I
despise people who do complain, and I won't be sucked into the argument.
But feel free to forward this as you see fit.
-Linus
at least someone else likes KDE better than Gnome like i do (http://chatroom.fuckmicrosoft.com:8000/images/spinsmile.gif)
[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: Master of Reality / Bob ]
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That quote is over four years old but I bet he still feels the same way today as he did four years ago. I wonder what he was using for a window manager at that time since he said he didn't use either Gnome or KDE at the time. And I wonder what he uses today? Not that it really matters.... Gnome is pretty good but I prefer KDE or Windowmaker to Gnome, but that doesn't really matter either.. It's nice to have a choice.
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it is nice ti have a choice unlike that other operating system... what do they get to argue about?
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Being confined to just one GUI or OS would (for me at least) be like being restricted to only one girlfriend. So what is there to argue about? My GUI can beat up your GUI?
Of course, the Microsnot people can always say "My OS ate my homework!" and the teacher will believe them.
Chuckles to all.
Sleeping Dog
PS If you have not yet expressed an opinion on how we should configure the two hard drives, please do so. This project needs lots of input from everyone.
To refresh: hda and hdb are 1 Gig and a 1.2 Gig drives (both 5200 rpm and equal access speeds).
quote:
Just A Note About PhotoShop
PhotoShop caches the images that are open into a disk area that they refer to as "Scratch Disks". Because this is a "Windows" version of the software, it will be "looking for" this space using the DOS type C:\ file structure. High res images can sometimes require as much as 400+ meg of "Scratch Disk" space while they are being edited. Therefore, your formatting and disk structuring strategy will need to take this into account.
And A Note About AutoCAD
AutoCAD's auto-save (backup) function, by default, also looks for a DOS style path (C:\etc.etc)
I double-checked on the sizes of the two apps. The AutoCAD program needs 300 MB of space and PhotoShop needs 100 MB (not including the scratch disk area). A one Gig DOS style partition on the 1.2 Gig HD might be what is needed for the two apps to have all the room that they require.
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By the way, Folks. Thanks for the notes about VariCAD. Looks like it could be a happening package. It will be interesting to see if they release modules for direct interface with CNC equipment. The article is right though about LinuxCAD.......it seems to be mostly smoke and mirrors.
Presently, the translation options like IGES and DXF still have vector and dimensional issues between the different CAD apps. They "mostly" work, but you still have to go back through and check everything lest your five-axis mill decides to drill all of the way to China. This is true of the apps that ALL RUN UNDER WINDOWS!
Hopefully the world of engineering apps will "get there" before I am too old or too dead to use, abuse and appreciate it all.
Keep the Fun
Sleeping Dog
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quote:
Originally posted by Sleeping Dog:
By the way, Folks. Thanks for the notes about VariCAD. Looks like it could be a happening package. It will be interesting to see if they release modules for direct interface with CNC equipment. The article is right though about LinuxCAD.......it seems to be mostly smoke and mirrors.
Presently, the translation options like IGES and DXF still have vector and dimensional issues between the different CAD apps. They "mostly" work, but you still have to go back through and check everything lest your five-axis mill decides to drill all of the way to China. This is true of the apps that ALL RUN UNDER WINDOWS!
Hopefully the world of engineering apps will "get there" before I am too old or too dead to use, abuse and appreciate it all.
Keep the Fun
Sleeping Dog
What, you got somthin' against China?
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OK, here's the skinny; my buddy made the Debian discs using a Windows program; it managed to corrupt the first (boot/install) disc, I just finished burning a new copy; It boots and installs the kernel into a RAMdisk. MORAL: DON'T use Windows applications to copy Linux discs- I think that it may be intentional corruption; I'm going to review the other CD's with "apt-find" on a random basis, but the most important one is good, so a basic install can be done with it. I'm sorry this is taking so long, but there's no point in trying to get this project off the ground with a disc set that will just cause major install problems; Debian's not the easiest install, and I want it to go as easily as it can; I will say this; the end result will be worth the wait. Now that I've got a reliable power supply in my box, things will go faster (Damn, it's tough being a control freak!!)
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More Good News For The Group Project
Yesterday I was given a Tatung 15 inch color monitor (my buddy upgraded his system to two 21 inch NEC's and no longer needed this one).
It can handle up to 1280x1024 and seems to be in pretty good shape despite the nicotine stains on the case. The 8 MEG video card likes it just fine. Now the "Proxy Box won't have to share a monitor with my server.
I should be getting the Debian CD's any day now and will keep you folks posted on the load. Are there any final votes on the formatting and partitioning strategy? Please let me know. We are coming down the home stretch.
Have a Great Weekend
Sleeping Dog
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P.S. Our collective thanks to Creedon who is providing the OS CD's. His efforts, energies and resources are greatly appreciated!
Sleeping Dog
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quote:
Originally posted by Sleeping Dog:
P.S. Our collective thanks to Creedon who is providing the OS CD's. His efforts, energies and resources are greatly appreciated!
Sleeping Dog
Gratefully acknowledged, many thanks!!
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WHEW!!! What a weekend! Between CD_rom drives that shit the bed, mowing my lawn, giving my dog a bath (not easy; he HATES baths) and re-evaluating (and re-burning) the Debian CD's, I'm completely WHIPPED; but I got EVERYTHING done! I'm sending out a set of Debian 3.0 Woody that's all set to boot and install;they'll be on their way tomorrow morning. I feel pretty good; the discs are done, my lawns mowed, and my dog DIDN'T bite me. Now I can go to work tomrrow and rest up.
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i was reading somewhere on the winehq site that the software you want to get working will probably work. check it out at www.winehq.com (http://www.winehq.com) i think
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Thank you for the article reference. I am sure that we will need several such references as the project progresses.
Have a Great Week
Sleeping Dog
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Greetings All!
I have been assured that the OS in on it's way here via U.S. SnailMail. When it arrives, we can get loaded (and you know how much fun that is). Looks like we will soon be back on roll again.
Keep Smilin'
Sleeping Dog
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One small piece of bad news. The Calcomp 1044 Plotter seems to be down. It freezes up when turned in with the "Turret init...." statement in the message window and will not initialize. If anyone knows where I can get an OEM service manual for this thing, I would surely appreciate the reference.
In the meantime, when we do the install, AutoCad 13 can be set to plot to a printer using the AutoCad ADI driver. I just got my hands on an Epson Stylus Color 600 that should fit the bill nicely. It should also work with PhotoShop.
B.G.T.I.F.
(Be Glad Tomorrow Is Friday)
Sleeping Dog
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but tommaror is one day closer to having to go back to high school. as for the plotter, i don't know anything. as for the printer it should be supported.
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Don't feel too bad, Choasf.....
Most of the pre-college folks around here started back this week....or will on Monday.
The remainder of us who are not in, avoided or beyond college, are already in year-round school. I think that they called it "the rest of our lives."
So being that the rest of my life is seeming to be so much like school, I am not looking forward to "Graduation".
Cheers and Chuckles
Sleeping Dog
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Sorry I have been out of touch. Work has kept me away from the forums.
The project is still on line and will proceed when the OS arrives. There have also been some family issues that have taken precedent (family ALWAYS comes first).
We should have this thing rockin' again very shortly.
Thanks for the patience.
Sleeping Dog
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Sorry about the delay; I've got the same excuse- family prob's. At this point, I've got some temporary breathing room (the situation I've got has stabilized, but it won't last). The CD's finally went out Thur., express mail; they SHOULD arrive Mon. Then the fun begins!!
Thanks for being patient all, I'm hoping to be able to participate fully, but I have a family situation that's going to require some intense concentration and some traveling when it resolves. If I'm not available for a few days, I apologize
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Got home from work this evening and guess what?
The Snail-Mail Fairy left a box at my door containing LibraNet and all of the Debian/Woody CD's!
Thanks go out to Creedon for burning and sending this for the project. I know that he has been dealing with some family issues, and the fact that he has taken the time under the circumstances to make this contribution is greatly appreciated.
Due to work, I will be unavailable to do the load until this weekend. I will try to post my availability a day or two in advance so that as many of you as possible who are contributing can be in the forum as I "Stuff The Box".
Again....I am following your leads with the purpose in mind of running Pro apps under LINUX.
We're back in business, babydoll.
Cheers and Servesas
Sleeping Dog
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I'm going to make myself available as much as possible. I'll keep my Debian/Libranet install up, and if you run into a snag, maybe I'll be able to give you support right from the avalable help files. Debian is particularly helpful as far as documentation goes, but the sheer volume can be overwhelming. My SUGGESTION is a minimal install of Libranet; it's less difficult, and you end up with kernel 2.4.16. I might even suggest (for the moment) not configuring Xwindow; that's just one less hurdle to jump, that's another reason I'm suggesting Libranet for a base; the adminmenu application that Libranet has can be used at the command line, just log in as root and cd to /usr/bin then ./adminmenu, and you can setup X with a fairly easy ncurses menu. Let's see if we can whip this puppy into shape, I think if we just sneak up on it, everything will fall into place. Re-installing is a pain in the ass.
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Well, Boys and Girls.......I'm back. Have been down with a severe bug. No solid food from Monday until today, but I can finally eat again and am beginning to feel like a human being. If Hell is anything like this bug has been, I'm going to be very, very good from now on.
I PLAN TO DO THE OS LOAD FOR THE PROXY BOX LATE THIS COMING SUNDAY AFTERNOON. I will post an exact time on Saturday so that interested parties can attend.
Cheers and Beers
Sleeping Dog
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hell is that henbaro/*however you spell that hot as fucking hell peper*/ that i ate for a dollar or so. now for libranet, yeah, don't fark with X yet, thier are easyer ways of doing it then they lead onto. as for wine, i might acrtally try codeweavers wine, winex cvs, or homecompiled wine. iv probably said it before but owell,
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habenero peppers arent that hot... they may be 15000 times hotter than a jalepeno, but still it isnt that hot for the hottest pepper in the world (the jalepeno on some hot scale is at 25,000... the Red Savina Habenero is 300,000)
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quote:
Originally posted by Sleeping Dog:
Well, Boys and Girls.......I'm back. Have been down with a severe bug. No solid food from Monday until today, but I can finally eat again and am beginning to feel like a human being. If Hell is anything like this bug has been, I'm going to be very, very good from now on.
I PLAN TO DO THE OS LOAD FOR THE PROXY BOX LATE THIS COMING SUNDAY AFTERNOON. I will post an exact time on Saturday so that interested parties can attend.
Cheers and Beers
Sleeping Dog
You know, I haven't mentioned this here before, but I'm a N.Y.S.D.E.C. certified waste treatment plant operator (turd herder to be more concise). When I was active, we used to call what you had "job security". I've had that particular curse before; when you first get sick, you think you're gonna die; later, you're afraid you won't.
Anyway. I'm waiting with bated breath, keep us posted, and stay healthy (and near a toilet!!)
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Habinero (Spelled with a "J" in Spanish, I think...) were not the cause of the disease that I suffered from, but they might just have been the cure.
I think that chili's that ranked about 15000 on the Schoville Scale helped to burn that bad bug out of my system. The Mexicans eat peppers for good reason. If you can survive the seasoning, the virus probably can't. Whatever wins, the posessions are divided according to the "Laws Of The Jungle"
Amigos Mios
We will see you on Sunday (El Domingo en Espan~ol)
Holas y Servesas
Sleeping Dog
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I am going to try to have everything ready for the "load" by 5:00 PM (CDT) Today (Sunday).
Should be fun.
Sleeping Dog
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quote:
Originally posted by Sleeping Dog:
I am going to try to have everything ready for the "load" by 5:00 PM (CDT) Today (Sunday).
Should be fun.
Sleeping Dog
I'll be around.
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Don't know why, but I had sjome difficulty logging into the forums just now. The box is fired up and ready for the load to begin. I have both Libranet and Debian CD's here so, what shall it be?
Sleeping Dog
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Debian.
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DrDOS is presently on the primary HD. THat is all that is on it though. Will it be OK to leave it there or should it get blown away in the install?
SD
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My vote is a minimal Libranet, for reasons I've outlined before.
You wll be formatting; I think Dr. Dos is toast.
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debian, and for the peper that you ate, i ate one for like $1.5.... well, cheyyene peper hot sauce don't taste the same anymore, like i was eating this "hot" chicken and pouring hot suace on it wondering why it wasn't hot. hot food is good
now agian, i would recomend putting debian on it at first.
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i got some sweet hot sauce with pure Capsaicum Extract in it... its fucking hot.
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Looks like Debian wins again. If it carks up a hairball, we can try the Libranet install as a fallback.
OK now....here we go. Lets see if this biscuit will boot from this CD ROM.
SD
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We are booted from the CD....
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We are now to the "Partition a Harddrive" section. How do you want the drive set up?
SD
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Remember, this drive is only a 1.0 GIG Seagate.
How much swap space? We have 64 MEG of RAM in this thing.
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quote:
Originally posted by Sleeping Dog:
Remember, this drive is only a 1.0 GIG Seagate.
How much swap space? We have 64 MEG of RAM in this thing.
Twice the amount of RAM for swap is the rule
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Do we also need a LILO partition?
SD
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i say 92 MB
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quote:
Originally posted by Sleeping Dog:
Do we also need a LILO partition?
SD
You'll have to have some kind of a boot system, although you COULD boot w/ a floppy. If you do that, make at least 3 copies; they don't last forever.
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quote:
Originally posted by Sleeping Dog:
Do we also need a LILO partition?
SD
if oyu mean a /boot partition, you might want a 5 MB one.
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How about starting another thread; it's a pain in the ass to follow this one after you post.
All in favor?
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On a drive that small I wouldn't create a /boot partition. Just make two parts, 128MB swap part being the first one on the drive, the rest would be "/".
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quote:
Originally posted by void main:
On a drive that small I wouldn't create a /boot partition. Just make two parts, 128MB swap part being the first one on the drive, the rest would be "/".
He's right; what kernel and file system have you decided to use; I think you might as well stick with ext2 and the 2.2xx kernel; you can always apt-get a new kernel
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The only thing I would be worried about is not having enough swap since he only has 64MB of RAM. That only totals up to 192MB. Should be enough. If it's not you can always create a swap "file" and add it to the /etc/fstab.
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I will start a new thread called "PRO-PROJECT CONTINUED"
SD
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i refuse to post in a new thread...
what about just a
/dev/hda1 90MB swap
/dev/hda2 /
and no separated partitions... or do we want to have separate partitions? Or have you already chosen?
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Oh please, MOR Bob....hit the new thread with us...we need your intelligent and thoughtful input.
SD
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ah ha ha ha ha ah ha ha ha ha ha. Thats the funniest thing i've heard since the last thing that was funny i said.