Stop Microsoft
All Things Microsoft => Microsoft as a Company => Topic started by: alied_perez on 31 May 2002, 05:38
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You wouldn't imagine how much M$-tied are people here in Cuba. Almost everybody who has a pc uses Windows. All government, educational, private institutions, people at home; everyone. At school, knowing computers == knowing Windows. to get a job, you have to know Windows. There are also many arseholes who can use the Windows Explorer and type a letter in Word and they tell you they Know a lot about computers (in spanish it is: "le s
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Your English is very good (better than a lot of us who's primary language is English, including me). Nice to hear from you. Do you have any experience with Linux/UNIX or is all of your experience with Microshaft?
Also, is internet access common for most people in Cuba or is it difficult to get? Just curious.
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Yep your english is perfect by Candian standards...better than my last Unix professor. Lets hope we can sway the people of Cuba in the Linux direction.
Good Luck
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China was a hotbed of unauthorised copies of Windows (and probably still is), but has been under pressure from the WTO to stamp out the unauthorised use of copyrighted software (http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2102119,00.html). Interestingly, this has given Linux a boost in that country: rather than paying for Windows, governments local and central are encouraging the use of free software.
I don't see Cuba joining the WTO for a while yet, though! :D
(I use the word "unauthorised" for shameless propaganda purposes. The words "pirated" and "illegal" suggest some sort of wrongdoing, which I think would be misleading; "unauthorised", on the other hand, suggests (I hope) defiance of a tyrannical authority (i.e. Microsoft), which is surely to be encouraged. ;) )
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welcome to the fold, alied_perez! i look forward to seeing you around on these forums, the thing about uprooting a monopoly situation (and that's what it is, the fact of whether the stuff is paid for or not is almost moot) is that it must be done by people. The more the better, and you are a person and so am i. As you say, if more people start to think about this for themselves, we may see change. This applies to a lot of things and not just systems.
just rambling again! :D
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quote:
alied_perez: You wouldn't imagine how much M$-tied are people here in Cuba.
Huh? The Cuban people can go to the internet? Does Fidel Castro allow it? :confused:
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This article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1905000/1905236.stm) gives some idea of how internet access in Cuba is achieved (but also controlled).
And here's another article I found called The Impact of the Internet on the Politics of Cuba (http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue5_8/williamson/).
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Thanks Nobber, this is very interesting stuff ;)
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hello again(I must enter past 17 (http://redface.gif) O local time)
I've been reading your answers and questions and I'll try to answer all of them.
Voidmain:
Thanx for my English.
I have some(yet not very deep) experience with UNIX/LINUX; I used to be NT Administrator and there was an SCO for routing and e-mail. root was friend of mine and sometimes I had to call him to fix some "configuration" I did.
Internet is not common but State Enterprises allow people(like me) to access from work. Perhaps they are more flexibles about it than in other countries, since you can access later at home and we can't. Of Course, there is always some ISP admin who can "get a deal" if you have some... resources(And if you have a PC, a modem and a telephone line at home, I bet you have)
Anyway, Internet access is in the hands of the gobernment and 2 or 3 State Companies. And to be allowed have this access, besides having the money(here money talks as well as in other countries) the State Security Department(DSE) must authorise you.
Calum:
Thanx for the welcome!!
I agree about uprooting a monopoly must be done by people, and right, not only to M$, but some other things; such as those which make you think some way or manipulate your thoughts. If I mention about M$ not receiving money for their so called software, I did it because it's some way to laugh at Mr Gates(not the best, I agree)
Later I'll continue, I'm out of power(Not enought fuel in the country :-( )
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viva anarchy
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cuinaand anarchy
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Nah... Anarchy doesnt work, Communism is slightly worse than anarchy (in my opinion), democracy doesnt work and tyranny definatly does not work. We need to work together and not need a governing body that is regarded as "above" everyone else. In every country you will hear about scandals and immoral activity of governing bodies such as cops, presidents, prime ministers.. and they dont get punished because they are "above" everyone else. Even celebraties get this kind of "higher" treatment; they dont go to jail, they just have their salaries "garnished" and dont think that some corrupt cop or other authority doesnt cash in by "pocketing" some of this money.
No none of the current government systems are nearly adequate enough. But we do not have a society that can handle a completely different outlook on government, where the people as a whole get to decide. If voting made a difference in democracy it would be illegal. Todays society is like a disease eating away at itself.
(i should have done this in a new post and there is no way in hell that i am going to translate this into Sindarin)
[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: Master of Reality ]
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Just willing to annoy about power!! (I have to say it in Spanish so I feel it wel: "Ganas de joder con la luz!!")
Well, Here I'm again
Yes Refalm, so far, Castro allows that.
The article given by Nobber is almost exact; having an own computer here is like having a 2003 BMW or something like this(I don't wanna talk about salaries...)
Internet (as well as all media) has been used by the government for their very own purposes and they don't imagine it could be used for others
ThanX you all for answering me. I just needed to be heared.
I'll keep in touch ... as long as I can
ciao
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quote:
Originally posted by Master of Reality:
viva communism!
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cuinaand communism!
[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: Master of Reality ]
hey!!! that's not funny!!!
I wish you were living here for just a couple months and you'll see what comunism's like!!!
BTW, don't say thet before any Cuban, they might believe you are "comunista", and I'll not be responsible
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I edited my above post.
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Wow, my 4 years in Spanish MIGHT ACTUALLY PAY OFF AND HAVE A USE!!!!!
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quote:
Originally posted by Ctrl Alt Del 123:
Wow, my 4 years in Spanish MIGHT ACTUALLY PAY OFF AND HAVE A USE!!!!!
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I am currently trying to learn Sindarin, I hate english. "I'm not racist, I hate everyone equally."
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quote:
Originally posted by Master of Reality:
I am currently trying to learn Sindarin, I hate english. "I'm not racist, I hate everyone equally."
what's sindarin?
I'm tryng to learn Gaelic
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quote:
Posted by alied_perez:
What's sindarin?
I'm trying to learn Gaelic
Why not learn Greek? ;)
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Ας μάθει και κάποιος Ελληνικά για να καταλαβαινόμαστε καλύτερα εδώ μέσα!
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quote:
Originally posted by hoojchoons:
Why not learn Greek? ;)
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Ας μάθει και κάποιος Ελληνικά για να καταλαβαινόμαστε καλύτερα εδώ μέσα!
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perhaps I have a bad feeling about cyrillic alphabet?
Nothing personal, but it remains me of russian :mad:
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Wow! Apart from some character similarities the Greek alphabet has nothing to do with the Cyrillic one. A history lesson: The Cyrillic alphabet was developed for the Slavs (including Russians, Romanians, Bulgarians etc) by two Byzantine hierapostoles, Cyrillus and Methodios so that the Slavs would have their own language. That seemed to suit the Byzantines since they were under constant attack by the latter. So, please don't confuse Russian with Greek ;)
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quote:
Originally posted by alied_perez:
what's sindarin?
I'm tryng to learn Gaelic
Sindarin is the tongue of the grey elves. Its a common-folk elvish tongue. Then there is Quenya which is another elvish language, it is a bit mroe "flowing" than Sindarin, its got less "hard" sounds.
Above that is Valorin which is only spoken by the High-elves and any lesser are not worthy to speak it.
[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: Master of Reality ]
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quote:
Originally posted by hoojchoons:
Wow! Apart from some character similarities the Greek alphabet has nothing to do with the Cyrillic one. A history lesson: The Cyrillic alphabet was developed for the Slavs (including Russians, Romanians, Bulgarians etc) by two Byzantine hierapostoles, Cyrillus and Methodios so that the Slavs would have their own language. That seemed to suit the Byzantines since they were under constant attack by the latter. So, please don't confuse Russian with Greek ;)
ok, thanx for the historical lesson. maybe later I'll see some greek.
BTW, which is the meaning of "Keltoi"? (I believe it's like this, or something similar) I've read this is where the word celt comes from and is a greek word. Am I right?
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And don't forget that there are hundreds even thousands Greek words in Spanish that you regularly use let alone English and several other latin-born languages. Don't forget also that the German syntax is identical to the ancient Greek one.
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I don't really know if it's a Greek word but we use the word "Κέλτες" or "Keltes" (in the latin alphabet) in Greek. There's a theory though which suggests that the Celts descended directly from the Ancient Greeks since the latter used to make frequent trips (as it was proved) and establish colonies. Yes, even in Ireland! Some people even claim that the Irish's short-tempered mood relates a bit to our own.
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quote:
Originally posted by hoojchoons:
And don't forget that there are hundreds even thousands Greek words in Spanish that you regularly use let alone English and several other latin-born languages. Don't forget also that the German syntax is identical to the ancient Greek one.
yes, I know greek is one of the most important languages in human History(I'm serious) It had once the rol that latin had later. Only I don't(by now) interested on learning greak. That's all
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and dont forget that elven languages are like no other.
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caral noa tana edhellen lambe ve ain'at
[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: Master of Reality ]
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Only learn it if you have loads of free time in your hands because it's a really difficult language with a vocabulary of up to 150,000 verbs and phrases. And the syntax is really a headache too. Anyway, I think that I'm far off the original topic. Sorry if I messed up the thread. Hope to see you posting more topics in the forums ;)
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i think the worst part of trying to learn any Elvish language is getting them mixed up. Quenya and Sinardin words are sometimes the same and sometimes quite different, their tengwar (alphabet) are completely different, but can be easily mistaken for the other language.
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Well, everyone knows French: fucking asshole bitch!
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quote:
Well, everyone knows French: fucking asshole bitch!
?
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Ctrl Alt Del 123: fucking asshole bitch!
Pardon your French :D
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hoojchoons: ?
If some Canadian or American dude says bad words, some of them may say: "Pardon my French.".
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That was something new for me to learn :D . Thanks Refalm ;)
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Originally posted by Ctrl Alt Del 123:
Well, everyone knows French: fucking asshole bitch!
what the hell are you talking about????
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Hello perez,
I'd like to welcome you here, glad to see you.
Your english indeed is excellent, and i hope you'll like it here. But i have a question for you:
The sentence "le s
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i liked that post! :D and yes, welcome to Perez, who we are led to believe is either a government employee or has a black market internet account...
I won't press for which...
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quote:
Originally posted by -=f00bar=-:
Hello perez,
I'd like to welcome you here, glad to see you.
Your english indeed is excellent, and i hope you'll like it here. But i have a question for you:
The sentence "le s
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it's ok! (http://smile.gif) i understand, i just didn't want you to have a problem just for posting here! i mean, is Perez yr real name? i know nothing about Cuba so i'll just shut up now! :D
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alied_perez: Anyway, pls, don't see me related with the government!!! I have nothing to do with them.
Of couse not, you made it clear that you don't like Castro...
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Originally posted by Refalm:
Of couse not, you made it clear that you don't like Castro...
Ohhh! you noticed it??
I don't like him, but There's nothing I can do about it.
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sorry if i sound like a total asshole but wow. i honestly did not know there were computers in Cuba (maybe the government but not normal people). seeing all these things of how poor cubans or and blah blah blah......
i'm surprised Cuba is sucking M$'s dick, some of the less fortunate (not poor, just not rich) are turning to Linux because it's free. Mexico is taking a shining to Linux because it's extremely cheap to run, all they need to pay for is the CD.
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chooco, do you live in the US? i heard that the US citizens get told a lot of untrue rubbish about Cuba by their government, and how the Cubans are all selfish primitive savages who love Stalinism, except the poor starving peasants and so on...
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Yes, the US government must have some reason for doing such things to Cuba as poisoning its livestock, blowing up its hotels and enforcing an economic blockade, etc. The official reason seems to be that Cuba poses a threat to US national security, but nobody really believes that, surely?
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I must say that it surprises me a bit that a communist government would actaully make their country dependant on the most capitalist company ever to come forth out of america .... it just sounds a bit strange to me .....
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quote:
Originally posted by Nobber:
Yes, the US government must have some reason for doing such things to Cuba as poisoning its livestock, blowing up its hotels and enforcing an economic blockade, etc. The official reason seems to be that Cuba poses a threat to US national security, but nobody really believes that, surely?
I bet a lot of Americans do... and that's not meant to be an insult to those that don't! (or to those that do, actually, although i think that those people could do a little more research before forming an opinion).
Also, Cuba isn't really a communist country, it's just not on America's 'good' list. It seems to be a long shot away from being a socialist country, that's for sure! seems more like a fascist dictatorship to me! (similar to what we call a liberal democracy, but with much less propagandha and advertising, and more general honesty about who's in charge...)
[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Calum ]
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quote:
Originally posted by Calum:
Also, Cuba isn't really a communist country, it's just not on America's 'good' list
Ah, but it's "communist" enough in that the government (a) controls industry, with the upshot that foreign corporations would not be allowed to exploit Cuba's resources, and (b) conducts political repression.
Of course, this definition of "communist" is ideal for propaganda purposes, but I don't think it really justifies assassination plots against Castro and all that other stuff!
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This is going to sound a bit harsh, but it's a historical fact that before Castro, Cuba had almost become USA's whorehouse in the south of Florida. To set some things straight. I'm certainly not in favour of absolute or despotic regimes like the one Castro established over the years. But, is Castro the only one to blame for the miserable state Cuba is in today? I don't think so. How about the USA's and other Western countries embargo on Cuba? How about the States assasination plots against Castro? How about Che Guevara's assasination by the CIA? Certainly, Cuba's current state is not the best possible but please let's not be one-sided here. It's certainly more objective to look at both sides of the problem. Don't you think?
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Ah, but it's "communist" enough in that the government (a) controls industry, with the upshot that foreign corporations would not be allowed to exploit Cuba's resources, and (b) conducts political repression.
Of course, this definition of "communist" is ideal for propaganda purposes, but I don't think it really justifies assassination plots against Castro and all that other stuff!
Actually political repression is not a requirement of communism despite what you may have read in some people's posts on this and other sites.
The sad reasons that political repression and communism have gone hand in hand in people's perceptions are twofold.
Firstly, the sorts of people who can fight their way into a position where they can set up a communist administration (in a very Darwinist, freemarket kind of a way i might add) also happen to be the kind of scaredy cats who think that political repression is the only way to keep power. Keeping power should not be a priority in a proper communist society, but those people justify it, saying that the ethic of communism would be diluted if they themselves personally are not in charge. Also, they must be well scared that people would vote them out if they were given a choice. If they had implemented real communism, the theory is that everybody would be really content and wouldn't want to vote them out, so this kind of "communism" is clearly not the real thing.
The second reason is entirely down to the witchhunt mentality exploited by people since time immemorial, which riles people into an unrealistic lather over people who are "not like us". The more public instances of this, that i have heard of anyway, tend to be Brit empire, and US type exploitations of people's emotions, from the crusades (especially the children's crusade) through the English and American witch-hunts, McCarthyism, the blind rage that comes with fighting a war, racism towards the Germans, the Japanese, the VietNamese, the Argentinians, the Iranians, conversely the Iraqis and most recently the Afghanis.
Nevermind that all of these stereotyped people are scapegoats. Go to one country and people will hate communists, go to another country and people will hate capitalists, travel again and people will hate blacks, move once more and the whole country will hate whites. What are their reasons? abstracts, nothing more. What has happened is that every government has a propaghanda machine to direct the hate of the people under its administration, since the people would presumably all just hate things anyway, and it's better (in the eyes of the state) for it to be controlled. This means though that the pet hates of the powerful or the influential become the passions of a nation, and reasons to march off to war. After all it keeps morale up, keeps the economy turning, reduces the population boom and keeps people from thinking for themselves.
Amongst the countries of the world with the most money, the US government has the biggest clout. Why? it has the most cunning propoghanda department. Consequently other nations such as Australia and England fall over themselves to back the US because the US markets itself as a winner in all cases. This is very similar to those dumb managers/employees/IT buyers/whoever who blindly plump for Microsoft, and shell out megabux for stuff that never works right.
So, the anticommunism thing is a residue from the post ww2 anti-russia thing, and is framed in the light of the unsophisticated but effective propoghanda of McCarthyism. This method would never work today (remember mass media was a new thing, Hitler had been the first real "media-whore" and the concepts of spindoctoring were not refined until the seventies when everybody had decided to forget peace and love for everybody and just look out for number one) but the knock on effects have been played upon expertly by successive generations of PR experts. The US can afford the best PR, and it has the mentality for it anyway, so it's only natural that they should be world leaders in this period of human history.
Of course this leaves anybody who does not jump on the USA bandwagon firmly on the "wrong" side of the fence in the mind of any "right thinking" citizen of the free world.
So it's all a matter of perspective, and these things like restriction of freedom et cetera are not the exclusive domain of one model of a political structure or another. I could probably argue that capitalism had the corner on repressing people's politics (and certainly the US would be rich in examples).
This is not to say that i think Cuba has a great government, all i'm saying is that they're not a communist government, and that those definitions of communism mentioned in this thread can be applied across the board to all other governmental models to equal effect, depending on perspective.
[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Calum ]
[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Calum ]
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quote:
Originally posted by Calum:
Actually political repression is not a requirement of communism despite what you may have read in some people's posts on this and other sites.
Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that it was, but you have to admit that anti-communist types always point to the totalitarian nature of supposedly "communist" regimes in order to denounce communism. They need to learn how to distinguish between theory and practice, of course!
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Originally posted by Chooco:
sorry if i sound like a total asshole but wow. i honestly did not know there were computers in Cuba (maybe the government but not normal people). seeing all these things of how poor cubans or and blah blah blah......
i'm surprised Cuba is sucking M$'s dick, some of the less fortunate (not poor, just not rich) are turning to Linux because it's free. Mexico is taking a shining to Linux because it's extremely cheap to run, all they need to pay for is the CD.
In fact, you did.
What do you think Cuba is!? A bunch of indians!!??
It's true that normal people cannot have their own computer(there are other needs) and a computer worth a year or more of salary.
Actually the laptop I have belongs to the bank I work for. There are people who have their own computers (who can pay it or who have an outsider relative who can). Don't believe everything is said about Cuba(neither the good nor the bad ones, they are not all true)
Cuba is "sucking M$'s dick" just because it's free for us. I don't know how M$ software get in here, but no one pays for it(not that I know) and it is very normal to have pirated copies of M$ soft, as I've said on a previous post. The other reason is the same than all the M$ users; for everyday work, it fits their needs; and no one imagines there is other thing. When first PCs entered here, there was MS-DOS, later there was Windows, and so on. So, money is not the problem.
I hope you have understood
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quote:
Originally posted by Nobber:
Yes, the US government must have some reason for doing such things to Cuba as poisoning its livestock, blowing up its hotels and enforcing an economic blockade, etc. The official reason seems to be that Cuba poses a threat to US national security, but nobody really believes that, surely?
Of course, noone can believe that. There are political reasons. I believe it's because the Miami votes. Every president promesses that he Will defeat the comunism in Cuba, and all the Miami votes are ensured. In the very bottom of this there are economical reasons. The FNCA is very strong economically, and the president will be pleased to have it on his side. Ask G. W. Bush if not.
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quote:
Originally posted by Calum:
Actually political repression is not a requirement of communism despite what you may have read in some people's posts on this and other sites.
[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Calum ]
[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Calum ]
i just loved your post, Calum (with 1 L)
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chooco, do you live in the US? i heard that the US citizens get told a lot of untrue rubbish about Cuba by their government, and how the Cubans are all selfish primitive savages who love Stalinism, except the poor starving peasants and so on...
no sir, i live in Canada. Canada is not part of the trade embargo and it was on a Canadian channel that i saw some stuff. it didn't seem to be obvious propoganda like on CNBC with the report Cabrusa Cabraro girl did. i also saw a fairly good report on 60 minutes about how a lot of cubans depend on money from relatives in the US to live. many government stores do not accept cuban money or the money they make from working is simply not enough to live worth a crap. this brings me to an interesting thought......people always say that stuff on the internet is complete BS but is the internet anymore BS than what you see on TV?
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i think that the internet is probably a bit less BS than TV, because on the internet individuals get to say what they want to an extent, but the TV is increasingly owned either by AOL Time Warner or by FoxTel, so there's only the sponsored politically correct coverage available.
I bet that stuff you say about Cuba is correct though, I don't know much about Cuba, but i heard that the US has used all the economic power that it can to make life worse for Cuba, just because it wouldn't toe the line, like a good lapdog.
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quote:
Originally posted by alied_perez:
In fact, you did.
What do you think Cuba is!? A bunch of indians!!??
Hey! watch what you say about indians! what do you think they are? a bunch of Cubans? :D
quote:
Every president promesses that he Will defeat the comunism in Cuba,
I think this is completely shameful, how dare the leader of one country promise that he will destroy the regime of another country? He should be working with the leadership of other countries instead of crushing them.
Sanctions (like the US vs Cuba) and bombing (like the US vs Afghanistan) only harms the people, not the regime, so neither should be done. Do the US think Cuba will cooperate when the US is being as cruel as possible to Cuba's people?
As you say, Perez, it is all about votes, not change.
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The only good reason I've ever heard for not dropping the sanctions against Cuba is that, at the moment, Cuba is unspoilt by American cultural imperialism - e.g. no McDonald's in Havana - and wouldn't it be nice if it stayed that way?
I could almost be convinced! :D
Now, the sanctions against Iraq, on the other hand, are another matter entirely...
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US should just sanction all of the middle east, they hate the US anyway so they can gobble a d*** (http://smile.gif)
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Well, it's not exactly as if we have tried to be their friends...
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well you have a point there......the US almost tried to be the enemy with all the stuff about getting involved in their governments such as helping Saddam Hussein and Muammar Kadafi into power then supporting a war between Iran and Iraq.....
but still, sanction!!! *waves little American flag* (http://smile.gif)
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I lived in Russia and Israel (and now the US) and it wouldn't be very nice to destroy the Middle East >=[. Visit Israel when all of this bull shit is over (soon, hopefully) it's a pretty neat place, expecially Tel-Aviv and Jerusalim..
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it seems like a nice place with all the beaches and stuff. well don't sanction Israel i guess, they have atually decided to become quaint with tecnhology of the 1900s unlike the other countries such as places like Egypt, Iran, Iraq and Jordan which are living 200 years in the past.
[ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: Chooco ]
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quote:
Originally posted by Chooco:
well you have a point there......the US almost tried to be the enemy with all the stuff about getting involved in their governments such as helping Saddam Hussein and Muammar Kadafi into power then supporting a war between Iran and Iraq.....
but still, sanction!!! *waves little American flag* (http://smile.gif)
almost? the US is the fucking enemy!!! i don't mean the people, just the pervasive cultural notion that if people do not do things their way, then it's wrong and should be changed/obliterated.
That's not meant to be a racist statement and i realise that most US citizens aren't that offensive, but the citizens don't control foreign policy, do they?
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quote:
Originally posted by Chooco:
well don't sanction Israel i guess, they have atually decided to become quaint with tecnhology of the 1900s unlike the other countries such as places like Egypt, Iran, Iraq and Jordan which are living 200 years in the past.
Egypt, Iran, Iraq and Jordan are living 200 years in the past? I wonder where you get your information from. I suppose with Iraq you have a point: the US and UK have been bombing it continually since the Gulf War, which (along with the UN sanctions) prevents the Iraqis from rebuilding the social and economic infrastructure that was destroyed.
Anyway, is having outdated technology really a reason to impose sanctions against a country? You could argue that the only reason Israel is up to date technology-wise is that it receives massive aid from the US - aid which is (uniquely) not project-specific and can therefore be spent on whatever toys the Israeli government wants.
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yeah, a lot of countries had their own nuclear weapons 200 years ago, didn't you know?
also, no need to worry about the US putting sanctions on Israel, those countries will be buttfucking each other (metaphorically) until we all choke to death on the dust from their bombs while they kill innocents and take their land, ignoring the real terrorists of the world in favour of media publicity.
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living in the past itself is not wrong, if you think it is then go kill some local amish people. what i'm getting at is that one of 2 reasons they hate Canada, US, Britain, France, etc is because they're religion actually demands that they not be friends with non muslims, a guy at anandtech put in about 5 entries straight froma the quaran that say this. modern day people have decided to not follow religion so blatantly.....for example, the bible actually said that if your eyes want you to look at a beautiful woman and think sexual thoughs, you have to rip it out to prevent sin, excessive??
they live in a past that still thinks of non muslims as the enemies somehow and the cause of a lot of problems (well the US is the cause of a lot of mid east problems). ya can't just hate the west because you think modernization causes you to live in sin although people live happier, easier, healthier and longer.
[ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: Chooco ]
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it says that in the old testament, although many do not believe that to be a literal command. In the new testament we are offered a 'new covenant' which basically negates the old one (of which that eye plucking command is part). While i do not agree with christianity in paractice, and am not a christian, i do know that to discredit someone on the grounds of facts, you must research the facts first. Although, i am willing to believe that thing about muslims not associating with nonmuslims, i think only some would take it literally, and i wouldn't want to judge individuals, on those grounds.
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um what i don't think that most people get is that they will never be happy until the other side group/country is wiped out and toast, jesus, this has been brewing for thousands of years, the same old shit has been going down for ever maybe if they kill each other there will finaly be peace ???
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there won't. War is a necessary part of the economic cycle if capitalism is going to continue to be the dominant societal model.
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"bombing (like the US vs Afghanistan) only harms the people, not the regime"
I totally disagree with that. Removing the teliban at the expense of some civilains was the best thing that has ever, and that will ever happen to that country. The teliban would slaughter entire villages when they were in power. You think that is better than the civilain deaths from the bombings? What the teliban did to afghanistan was nothing compared to the short term damage caused by US attacks.
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oh yes i certainly do. Bombing is the best thing that happened to that country? look at how up in arms the US was at four planes crashing into buildings? one of them even missed, and you say that the whole fucking country getting ploughed under, and thousands upon thousands of innocents getting killed is the best thing that ever happened to it? what a piece of nonsense.
I don't mean to imply that there is any justification for the plane/building terrorists' acts, what i'm saying is that bombing always kills a lot of people that didn't need to be killed. And doesn't kill anybody that should be strategically removed in the interests of a quick resolution to the situation.
It's like that stuff about not killing Milosevic, because it's against the Geneva convention to knock off the premier of a country. So instead you just allow him to fuck over tons of innocents while you join him in fucking over some more innocents. In the meantime you sell each other arms and oil so everybody wins (except the innocent and the poor, but who gives a fuck about them, eh?)
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A whole country gets plowed? Get real Calum, a few hills with some caves got blown up, along with a few non-innocents who were hiding in them. If the regime that was controlling the country were not allowing terrorist training camps then the US would not have had to go in and try and clean the place up. And one could suggest that the planes crashing into WTC might never have happened. Believe me, I sure could have used the tax savings. What do you propose "should" have happened in response?
[ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]
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good question. And one i am not qualified to answer. I'm not too hot on current military tactics i'm afraid, i suppose maybe this is one of those times when some sort of insider espionage would have been able to winkle the head bastards out before they got wind and went to ground. This action though, would not have appeased the thundering masses who wanted to see that something was being done.
On the other hand, maybe that wouldn't have been right, as i say i am no contemporary military tactitian, but as far as i see there have been several dozen bombing campaigns in the last century and they have none of them done much damage to the "enemy". I realise you may not agree with me, and i also realise that you will have more of an understanding of the tactics and so on, but i just think that it would be nice if war was not based so much on economics, greed and public opinion, but actually on a genuine will to end it all as quick and clean as possible. Bombing is almost an admission that you would rather dig in than get it all over with, in my opinion.
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It would be nice if it could have been some sort of inside job, but in Afghanistan there really was no "inside". War is ugly, bombing is ugly, it will continue from here until the end of time. I'm certainly not the brightest person in the world by a LONG shot but I can't think of much else that could have been done. I certainly don't believe that "nothing" should have been done.
And you are right about economics/etc should not be part of the reasons for military action, and decisiveness is also extremely important. I believe in the last two major conflicts the US was involved in they were pretty much on track although in the Gulf war I am undecided as to weather the mission was complete. Saddam should have been part of the mission and he wasn't. Looking back, more should have been done in the Nothern territory right after the cease fire when Saddam was tearing up the Kurds. I happened to be there for that one and I didn't realize until years later what actually went on in the northern parts of Iraq. I wish there were an easy answer and it seems that the US can not win no matter what they do. There is always a huge portion of the world population that hate us. If we do something, they hate us. If we do nothing, they hate us. It sucks because I don't hate anybody (except Microsoft, and XP Luser).
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As much as i respect your opinion Calum, your way out in left field on this one. Thousands of deaths? Most of the deaths were teliban solders, few civilians diead in comparison. The bombs were intended for military targets. Yes, a few missed, but very few in comparision to the ones that didn't. Civilain infustructure wasn't bomb as was the case with Iraq and Yugaslavia.
The idea of the bombing having no effect on the regime (teliban) is ridiculus. The teliban is gone isn't it? Can you say the same about the russian attacks in the 80s?
As for the stuff about ecomnomics enetering the dicission making. The US lost millions of dollars worth of bombs, fuel, food and other reasources. They would have definitly prefere to keep that money in their pocket. The truth is, the teliban needed to be removed. The US did that the safest and most cost effective way they could. IMO, the only thing they did wrong was let bin laden escape.
There aren't peaceful solution to every problem. Violence is sometimes neccessary. It's unfortunate, but true.
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Actually, my statement about the US conducting the war in the most cost effective way they could was incorrect. They could have not used bombs, thus saving millions of dollars, and just sent solders in instead. But by using bombs, they spent a lot more money, but less people died.
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quote:
Originally posted by Ctrl Alt Del 123:
Wow, my 4 years in Spanish MIGHT ACTUALLY PAY OFF AND HAVE A USE!!!!!