Stop Microsoft
Miscellaneous => Programming & Networking => Topic started by: cheatscanner on 11 May 2005, 02:40
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Im not that stupid! I mean programming language... that is downloadable... and only those who have the program can decode it and use the programs created by other users of that program, but not able to edit it.
Make one in competition to MS-VB!
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It's called XBasic (http://www.xbasic.org/) although I haven't tried it.
What programming a languages have you used before?
By the way would some mod move this to programming & networking.
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Moved to Programming & Networking.
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There's also FreeBasic (http://www.freebasic.net/) not an alternative to Visual Basic I know but Microsoft QuickBasic. Who knows may be one day it might form part of a Visual Basic like language if they ever implement GUI support.
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Im not that stupid! I mean programming language... that is downloadable... and only those who have the program can decode it and use the programs created by other users of that program, but not able to edit it.
Make one in competition to MS-VB!
So, what was the original context for this message? Where does it moved from? Because, you know, this doesn't make any damn sense.
"Im not that stupid!" sounds like he's replying to something. What? The continuation is broken, does anyone expect there will be meaningful discussion as a result of something like this?
Also, the specifications for the "language" are gibberish, or just plain wrong. It sounds like he wants a bytecode language, which you can only run if you have the VM application, or any similar design. However, bytecode can be disassembled too, and if there's only one compiler and the bytecode is highlevel, it'll very quickly result in a decompiler being written as well. Well, if a real programmer ever finds the language and feels like writing one, anyway.
So, what's the meaning of "but not able to edit it"? Does it just mean "compiled, not interpreted"? Also, what's the purpose of this all? Competition to VB? Wouldn't all programming languages be in similar position anyway, assuming they were worthwhile, or is the intent to create a programming language targeted for the same people that use VB today?
This post just raises more and more questions, and I have no idea what's the point of any of it. If there is something to discuss here, could mr. cheatscanner please elaborate on the original post?
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muzzy I agree but don't be so hard on newbs - he probably hasn't used anything else accept for Visual Basic.
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ive used hypertalk, but i think it's dead now.
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I've long wanted to design a programming language which would be completely graphic. Not like Visual Basic, but the language itself would consist entirely of graphic symbols.
I know it's been done before, but I'm thinking more of something like assembling blocks, or a circuit board. The graphics would use SVG, so that it would be possible to both define custom graphics as functions and variables, and be able to program in text mode by typing the SVG graphics manually.
I have some sort of idea of how this would work, but unfortunately I don''t think I could ever write an implementation at this point, as I have little programming skill other than rudimentary concepts of functions and variables. :( I don't even know if it would be realistic or even practical.
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I've had a similar idea Laukev7,
It would be like a flowchart language and intead of being a compiler or interpretor the code would be converted to assembly which could be optimized manually (if needed) then assembled.
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Who cares about implementation? Write a specification, example programs, anything. We can discuss those without need for any kind of implementation to exist
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This is all talk I'm afraid muzzy, Laukev7 and I never actually plan to make these lanuages as neither of us have sufficient programming experiance. We're just saying "wouldn't if be cool if we could make an all graphical programming language"
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Who cares about implementation? Write a specification, example programs, anything. We can discuss those without need for any kind of implementation to exist
Ah, to live in a world where examples aren't active implementations of the specification...
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Although I think SVG would not make the best format for a graphical language, if this lang was done with XML, one could create a XSL converter to convert it to SVG.
So something like this then:
SVG (http://www.komodoware.com/images/GraphicCode.svg)
PNG (http://www.komodoware.com/images/GraphicCode.png)
(Looking at the SVG shows the zoomability of something like this, aka looking from zoomed out you can read Main and DoWork but you must zoom in to read the function.
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I think Laukev7's idea is a pretty cool and interesting one. However it sounds very high level, it could be implemented. It would certainly make design simple. However it would be pretty tricky and complex to design I imagine.
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I've long wanted to design a programming language which would be completely graphic. Not like Visual Basic, but the language itself would consist entirely of graphic symbols.
I know it's been done before, but I'm thinking more of something like assembling blocks, or a circuit board. The graphics would use SVG, so that it would be possible to both define custom graphics as functions and variables, and be able to program in text mode by typing the SVG graphics manually.
I have some sort of idea of how this would work, but unfortunately I don''t think I could ever write an implementation at this point, as I have little programming skill other than rudimentary concepts of functions and variables. :( I don't even know if it would be realistic or even practical.
I've had a similar idea Laukev7,
It would be like a flowchart language and intead of being a compiler or interpretor the code would be converted to assembly which could be optimized manually (if needed) then assembled.
I don't think I fully understand what could be achieved with such a language that couldn't be achieved through a powerful (or completely wierd) IDE using C, C++, or any other language. The images that solo posted here (http://www.microsuck.com/forums/showpost.php?p=100374&postcount=13), and a flow chart, could, I imagine, be achieved by interpreting a source file of any already-existing language. UPDATE: Hm, maybe you could get like an isometric view of a graphical window, and the button's etc. callbacks are hooked up to functions which you see under the window, but all the toolkits work differently, so that'd be hard to do. EDIT: Or do you mean something like this (http://illhostit.com/files/5424331816772162/graphical_lang.png) (from this PDF (http://hhttp://llk.media.mit.edu/papers/archive/begel-aup.pdf))?
I agree with solo that should anyone attempt something like what you describe, XML would probably be the best choice (and then you can convert to SVG, etc.). The XML file could also be generated by either an interpreter or that powerful IDE.
There's one pretty cool feature that would probably work with existing stuff but would totally rock with this graphical thing (either with a new language or an IDE): collaboration (Inkscape already has this, with Inkboard). If me and someone else is working on the same file, I could see where they are and what they're at. It could be a 3D world, like croquet (http://www.opencroquet.org/).
Holy cow... I can imagine a 3D view of a whole system. Different layers for different groups of software. Linux and ld on the bottom, bash and stuff up from that, then X11, then GNOME, then Firefox and other stuff... And thousands of geeks working away.
Oh, and bug tracking. Bugs appear, when found, where the bug is in the code (when possible).
PS: I honestly hope I didn't step on anybodies toes in reviving an old thread.
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Well they did make something like a graphical programming language for the Lego programmable Lego bot things ... I had one as a kid ... basically the program was visualized as blocks representing loops, if-then statements, timing functions, etc. in a modular fashion, where you decided what you wanted the Lego bot to do when it received an input, and the speed of each of the connected motors .... I wasn't very good at it, my bot smashed itself to pieces after about 2 minutes :D ... luckily it was relatively easy to repair.
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Visualising control flow is easy, IDA pro (a dissasembler) has a great tool that can turn any function into a flowchart. Note that an 50 line function would require about 20 printed pages to be legible. and thats just program flow.
what about variables? I suppose you could show data transfer with arrows, the result of a function (functions could have multiple returned values because it doesn't need to fit on a line). Otherwise you need some way of uniquely identifing memory locations...letters are a lot easier.
At the end of the day you will be building something similar to a circuit/IC diagram .... they do those in programming languages now because its so much easier then generate a diagram.
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Well they did make something like a graphical programming language for the Lego programmable Lego bot things ... I had one as a kid ... basically the program was visualized as blocks representing loops, if-then statements, timing functions, etc. in a modular fashion, where you decided what you wanted the Lego bot to do when it received an input, and the speed of each of the connected motors .... I wasn't very good at it, my bot smashed itself to pieces after about 2 minutes :D ... luckily it was relatively easy to repair.
The Robotics Ivention System. I actually have my RCX here on thre desk lol. That was a good interface though.
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It would be like a flowchart language and intead of being a compiler or interpretor the code would be converted to assembly which could be optimized manually (if needed) then assembled.
Yeah. Some company made such a thing (intelitek EasyC, used for competition robotics) and it completely sucked.
It had almost NO functions, NO custom subroutines, worked only ran on WinXP, and only as admin. :mad:
Overall, a graphic editor would be great for noobs, but would never work for complex stuff.
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Graphical language.... VB
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At the end of the day you will be building something similar to a circuit/IC diagram .... they do those in programming languages now because its so much easier then generate a diagram.
Tell me about it, being an engineer I prefer drawings - much easier to understand than a rat's nest of code.
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Yeah. Some company made such a thing (intelitek EasyC, used for competition robotics) and it completely sucked.
It had almost NO functions, NO custom subroutines, worked only ran on WinXP, and only as admin. :mad:
Overall, a graphic editor would be great for noobs, but would never work for complex stuff.
But that's only one version. I think a graphic language would be great. I loved the Lego Mindstorms language, I find it similar to C++, actually.