Stop Microsoft
Miscellaneous => Programming & Networking => Topic started by: bha on 14 September 2002, 00:31
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well, basically...
i'm new to other operating systems, but am highly interested in a good one. here is what i'd like to accomplish.
1. use partition magic on either my current xp or me laptop to partition my drive.
2. download a great os and install it without causing any horrible errors to my current os.
i'd like to get some ideas from someone on a cool os, as i do not know much about this subject. any help or info will be highly appreciated and smiled upon.
thanks...
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you can try Mandrake Linux or Lycoris if you want user friendlyness. Redhat if you want to learn a lot about alinux but not give up user friendlyness. Slackware if you want to dive into the deep end.
Do you want to have a dual boot with WinXP and Linux(or whatever)? If so, I'm not sure how easy it would be to do that without having to reinstall winxp.
We will all be glad to help you though.
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First of all welcome to the boards (http://smile.gif) !
The choices on an alternative OS in your case are numerous. Given the fact though, that you are a newbie (to be), I'd definitely recommend Linux as the number one alternative to Windoze. However there are many Linux distros out there for you to choose, some of them harder to install and configure (Slackware, Debian) and others much easier (SuSE, RedHat, Mandrake, Lycoris etc). I believe that Mandrake (current stable version being 8.2) and Lycoris are the most newbie friendly (more info about distros can be found at http://www.distrowatch.com (http://www.distrowatch.com))
After you decide on your distro, make sure that your hardware is fully supported (keep in mind that cheap and proprietary hardware are not supported in Linux), by visiting the respective website and the supported hardware database.
I wouldn't suggest installing Linux alongside Windoze though if the latter uses the NT and not the FAT32 file system like Win95, 98 and ME because it would be tricky especially for a noob like you ;) . Oh, and about your laptop, you can find some useful links at the linux on laptops page (http://www.linux-laptop.net), under the make and model of your laptop!
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i am really not concerned with a dual boot, and for the meantime, i would prefer to keep my current os primary, as i know nothing of the other.
so, whichever way i can install another os and do this would be my preferred method.
as for the os, i guess i want some user friendliness to start with, so by the sounds of it, slackware will have to hold off. i'll have to pick one of the others.
i would prefer not having to re-install winme
also, are there any tricks to partition magic that i should know about before its installation. i want the process to go as smooth as possible.
thanks for the reply.
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thanks for the welcome too.
i believe i will be installing the new os on my me edition of windoze (as you call it). will this work effectively versus the xp?
oh, and thank you for the helpful links.
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Installing on your ME machine will be easier for you, believe me.
Some more links for you (in random order):
http://www.linuxnewbie.org (http://www.linuxnewbie.org)
http://www.linux.com (http://www.linux.com)
http://www.linux.org (http://www.linux.org)
http://www.newtolinux.org.uk (http://www.newtolinux.org.uk)
http://www.gnu.org (http://www.gnu.org)
http://www.linuxrefresher.com (http://www.linuxrefresher.com)
and many more....
Good luck ;)
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Mandrake Linux can resize your partition to install the OS on the same partition as Windows. So can others, but Mandrake is the easiest.
Download Mandrake from:
http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/ftp.php3 (http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/ftp.php3)
Download Any Distro From:
http://www.linuxiso.com (http://www.linuxiso.com)
You just burn the ISO's to CD, put disk 1 in the drive, and restart.
Here is Mandrakesoft's official user's guide:
http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/doc/82/en/user.html/ (http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/doc/82/en/user.html/)
A specific guide to resizing partitons:
http://www.linuxbeginner.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=60 (http://www.linuxbeginner.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=60)
It may be a little hard to follow, so here is an easier to follow (and print) install guide:
http://linux.box.sk/newsread.php?newsid=442 (http://linux.box.sk/newsread.php?newsid=442)
Have fun!
If you need help, we are here.
BTW: Back up your important docs. In the rare event something does go wrong, it's nice to know you still have your important stuff. Not to scare you or anything
-The Muffin Man
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he is right, when you boot off the mandrake CD it will give you a partition tool that may very well be a lot better than partition magic.
When i first started with Linux i tried Partition Magic... then i formated and re-installed windows cuz i fucked it up. The next time i used the mandrake installer partition tool (called DiskDrake) and it was very good.
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first what you will want to do though is:
run scandisk in windows, then run defrag, then make sure you have enough free space to put Mandrake on the end of your harddrive.
You will need around 2 GB for a full isntall (you probly wont want the full install anyway) and about 100MB for the minimal install (you dont want that either). I suggest having a partition size of 2GB so you still ahve space for files and programs you isntall later.
You will also make a swap partition for Linux, this swap partition is Virtaul Memory, it stores files just the same as Memory does. A good size for a swap is 200MB (some people say twice your RAM but i usually use 150-300MB).
When you use the partition tool in the Mandrake isntaller it can resize your windows partition without destroying any data but i recomend backing up any important files just in case.
Now in case you didnt notice i kind of made your decision for you above (Mandrake). I highly suggest Mandrake, i used it for a while and liked it for a beginning Linux.
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thank you to everybody for your help. i will be checking into all of this very soon. i guess that mandrake would be a great way to start, especially since most of you seem to think so. i will do some research with the links that you have all provided. i want to be fully prepared, as i do not want to run into too many problems.
feel free to keep any advice going, and thanks for all the quick responses.
which of these do you think i should use:
Downloads: Mandrake 9.0 Beta | Mandrake 8.2/i586 | Mandrake 8.2/i586 ISO Image | Mandrake 7.1/SPARC/UltraSPARC ISO Image | Mandrake 7.1/AXP ISO Image | Mandrake 7.0/i486 ISO Image | Mandrake IA64 | Mandrake 8.2/PPC | | MandrakeSecurity Single Network Firewall
also. does the download come with diskdrake, or do i need to install this separately?
[ September 14, 2002: Message edited by: big-hired assassin ]
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Mandrake 8.2 ISO image.
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DiskDrake comes with it: It's part of the installer
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yes indeedy, mandrake 8.2 is what i use and i would recommend it.
i recommend you dual boot between mandrake and windows, meaning you have one system on one partition, and the other on a seperate partition. you can use a simple tool such as LiLo to give you the choice of which to boot into every time you switch on.
i strongly suggest you read a bit about what you are getting into before you do it. it will all be a bit unfamiliar to someone who has been using windows. i can remember well what i was like last year! very puzzled, but it makes sense once you actually get in up to your elbows in it!
The Mandrake User site (http://www.mandrakeuser.org/index.php) is a really good one stop shop for finding out how to dual boot, how to use LiLo, how to install and so on. Go to their site and click "DocSection" to read their many helpful articles, and also go to their downloads section, where you can download the entire DocSection for home reading, and also download several useful utilities and programs specifically compiled for mandrake 8.2.
If you have any questions about getting started with linux, we will be happy to help you here, or i would also recommend the New To Linux site (http://www.newtolinux.org/), where they have some articles and a very friendly help forum.
good luck and i hope you enjoy your new OS, and welcome to the board! :D
Good luck
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okay, i'm drowning here. i have cleaned up my system, ran skandisc and defrag, downloaded the iso files, burnt them, read lots of stuff, and here is the problem.
makes me feel stupid, but i can not get the disc to start up. i've changed the bios, but it still will not run? i checked into the plug and play thing, but i've never been able to get my winme to run a disc automatically anyway. i'm at a loss and haven't even begin. what a shame. any advice?
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Boot Windows
Put the disc in
It will autoplay
Click 'Make boot floppy(s)'
Make the boot floppy
Reboot
Bob's your uncle...
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i hate to say it, but my computer refuses to auto play. i've taken so much time to learn about the install that this problem is becoming rather frustrating. any other clues as to how i can get around this?
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Does it not boot from the CD when you put the disc in the drive and then reboot?
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Open D:\autorun.inf in notepad, see what .exe it points to, then run that .exe yourself.
I think it is D:\dosutils\autorun.exe but check for yourself.
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okay, some discs autorun by themselves, but this one is not. i know i have the right discs, but it acts like it wants to autorun and then it stops.
[ September 15, 2002: Message edited by: big-hired assassin ]
[ September 15, 2002: Message edited by: big-hired assassin ]
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okay. i know what you mean about never getting cds to autorun in windows millenium. this is not your problem.
when you switch on the machine, your BIOS is what gets started first. it checks out if you have a bootable disk in the floppy drive, if not, it checks the cd drive, if not, it then looks on the hard drive.
you can change this order by going into the BIOS itself.
now, you should put the CD into the drive, then switch on your computer. watch it trying to load from the floppy, then watch it try to load from the cd drive. it should
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i have checked and rearranged the bios already. still nothing. i guess maybe i don't have the things burnt correctly but that doesn't make sense to me. i have the iso files. they are roughly over a gig and they are on three cds. i am under the impression that this is correct. maybe i should try to download them again, but i believe i have them already. so this is frustrating too. i think i'm at a loss.
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Can you browse the contents of the cd in windows? If you can it's burned ok. And, if so, do you have another bootable CD (e.g. a Windows CD) you could use to verify that your system can boot ok from cds?
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hmm. as i say, i'm not the person to really ask about the actual burning of iso files. i gather that the iso is a kind of container for the data which goes on the CD, and a cd burning program will kind of open up the iso file and put its contents on the cd, although we did have a guy on a few months ago who had inadvertently put the actual iso files on cds instead, which did not work.
the only thing i can do here, until somebody comes along who burns their own isos, like voidmain, or some other person, is to say to you, have a look at the site "LinuxISO.org (http://linuxiso.org)" and check out the instructions they have for burning isos onto cds, and also, if you really are convinced you cannot get them burnt properly, then try going to "YourLinux.co.uk (http://www.yourlinux.co.uk)", they will burn you a copy of linux, and post it to you for next to cost price, anywhere in the world. There are bound to be similar services closer to your actual location, but they are the only ones i know about, i'm afraid.
hopefully someone will come along and help you out a bit better than this...
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i appreciate your help. any wisdom at all in this area helps me out. i probably didn't burn the cds correctly. i'll check it out through the links you posted. i am also currently downloading the program again just to make sure that it is not a corrupted file. thanks again...
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I can't tell if you tried browsing the CDs in windows.
If you can browse them, they're o.k. and if that is the case you may have to make a boot floppy using rawrite32. Check your docs on how to do this.
[ September 15, 2002: Message edited by: RudeCat7 ]
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An iso is just a raw 'image' of a cd. The burning software doesn't know what files are in the image, or even whether or not it is a valid file system - it just burns the thing bit for bit onto the disc. If he can browse the cd in windows then it's burned correctly.
Did you try booting from another cd?
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HAH! i'll have to let you guys know about tjis continued affair later, as i figured out what my damn problem was. i feel stupid saying it, but i didn't even consider that my cd burner (built in) wasn't burning the iso's properly. so, i'm downloading one now and i'll have to reburn them and try that. unfortunately, i'll have to wait until tomorrow to find out.
i do have a question regarding lilo though. is this on the install disc, or at least an option in regards to dual booting. also, i figured i would just do the default recommended insallation since i'm brand new to linux and then work on the security features i've read about from there... suggestions? humor? laughs? nods? grins? etc...
thanks again
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HAH! i'm a screw up. i'll have to let you know how this goes tomorrow, as i do not have enough time today. i bet if i burn the iso's correctly, it'll work...
klutz...
[ September 15, 2002: Message edited by: big-hired assassin ]
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quote:
Originally posted by big-hired assassin:
HAH! i'll have to let you guys know about tjis continued affair later, as i figured out what my damn problem was. i feel stupid saying it, but i didn't even consider that my cd burner (built in) wasn't burning the iso's properly. so, i'm downloading one now and i'll have to reburn them and try that. unfortunately, i'll have to wait until tomorrow to find out.
i do have a question regarding lilo though. is this on the install disc, or at least an option in regards to dual booting. also, i figured i would just do the default recommended insallation since i'm brand new to linux and then work on the security features i've read about from there... suggestions? humor? laughs? nods? grins? etc...
thanks again
There is no such option as "dual booting" during installation. Unless specified otherwise, LILO will be installed on the MBR of your hard disk. Don't worry about losing Windoze though, since you'll have an option "Windows" in the LILO window ;) . I would also suggest to do the "experienced" installation and not the "recommended" one because it gives you more options. It's up to you though. Good luck with burning those ISO's this time and don't get discouraged (http://smile.gif) !
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okay, i downloaded a couple of programs that can burn iso image files. however, they weren't compatible without a bunch of upgrades. finally, i found fireburner, then i went to go get a cap'n crunch and voila... properly burned iso image files. i checked them out and they look great. now, i have to crash because i'm working tonight.
i am interested in the more experienced installation, but i am highly intimidated by it as well.
i'm not sure which options i'd be looking for, or if i'd do things correctly.
once again, thanks for all the advice and encouragement. (http://tongue.gif)
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okay, here is what i found on root partitions and mandrake:
Mandrake 8.2 (Very easy)
The Mandrake installer has us beginners in mind. After we selected our language we were prompted for the type of install, we chose a
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I'm confused, is the Windows partition not at the size you want? If not, can't you just boot up the Mandrake install again and use the same paritioning tool to resize the Windows partition to where you want (i.e. move the slider)? Otherwise you'll need to use PartitionMagic or some other 3rd party partition manipulation program to resize it.
Also, before trying to boot up the Mandrake install again you might want to delete the new paritions that it created (if it created any). They will show up in the Windows FDISK program as "unknown" partitions. Even though they are unknown types to Windows it should allow you to delete them. You should then have the 4.5GB Windows parition and the rest of the drive should be "free space". If this is what you originally wanted then when you boot the Mandrake CD again it should detect this as free space and give you the option to install Mandrake there...
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okay, yes, the windows partition is the size that i want it to be, but i must have screwed something up because i can not use the slider again, nor can i continue the install. when i choose "use free space," i get an error that partition failed. now, i think that i need to get rid of the partitions that were created like you said, but i do not know where to find them. they do not show up under my computer. where is the windows fdisc you are talking about?
thanks
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fdisk is a DOS utility commonly found on Windows boot disks (You know, those little floppies that came with 9X?) You can make one if you have 95/98/ME. In the case of XP, I'm not sure if you can.
Goto Control Panel>Add/Remove Programs
One of the tabs should be "Startup Disk" or something
Follow the instructions. fdisk will be on the disk it makes
Double check that the disk was made properly by browsing the disk in my computer.
More later...if I can find something.
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Well, if you do not select the "easy" install, or whatever it's called in Mandrake you should also be presented with a paritioning program that will allow you to delete the existing Mandrake partitions (if they exist). So you don't need to use the Microsoft FDISK, Linux has it's own (and it works better).
[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: void main ]
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well, it's not in the windows fdisk anyway. i'm going to go back to try and see if i can install linux. i'll try not to use the default instaa, which is even more intimidating.
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well, it appears that even in the expert install, i am still unable to accomplish this thing. unfortunately, i am receiving errors
not enough free space to auto allocate
partition failed
hmmmm, the hell if i know at this point what to do.
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After running scandisk in Windows on your C: drive you might try to create another FAT partition in the free space using Windows. Then format it to become a D: drive. If that works then I would suggest deleting that newly created D: partition, then download and install RedHat 7.3.
Unless some of the Mandrake users here have the answer (you might want to search Mandrake's web site). I don't use Mandrake so I can't really give you any Mandrake specific help or insight, other than I don't pariticularly care for Mandrake. But I'll keep my opinions to myself, or is that too late? (http://smile.gif)
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ahhhhh, but wait my many feathered friends and battalion leaders, i may have figured it out. damn, been awhile since i used dos...
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installation successful. both operating systems work beautifully, and i must say that i love the way linux looks and i am very excited to "play." so, if you'll excuse me, there's a lot to learn and enjoy.
thank you all for your help with this endeavor.
:D
[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: big-hired assassin ]
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i am very happy to hear you got it to work. those easy install steps are one of the reasons that i said mandrake 8.2 was a good choice.
quote:
a cap'n crunch
now while i don't in any way condone illegally cracking a program, i really liked this particular little turn of phrase! very colourful! tells a whole little story on its own (for those who know about the Cap'n Crunch story already anyway...)
One last thing, big hired assasin, i am writing a newbie style FAQ/help document about LiLo, do you mind if i use some of the content of this thread in the piece? to get an idea of what sort of things people ask about lilo, and i might end up quoting too. is that okay?
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feel free, no problem here. anyway that i can help the cause. ;)
the only problem i feel i have besides needing to get used to linux is that i can't use my dreamweaver software. that is what i use for my site. currently, i'm a little confused with gnome and kde. are these just themes, or do they have separate purposes? either way, i'm sure that i will enjoy the new os and once again, i say thank you to everybody for their help.
i came across this site some time ago, but felt intimidated to truly interact, as i did not feel very educated in the matter. i did not want my ignorance regarding other operating systems to make me feel exiguous. it is nice to know that people are willing to work with others. i know that quite a few people here are writers and i invite anyone who would like to display some of their talent over at otp to feel free. we have a forum which is pretty new and a lot of our visitors are writers and artists. could be a good place to discuss "the microsoft war" or to at least enjoy discussing the written language. we have a private workshop as well, and are always interesting in getting people to interact. i definitely plan on frequenting this forum, as well as this site. thanks...
[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: big-hired assassin ]
[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: big-hired assassin ]
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i don't even know what exigious means! shows how ignorant i am! :D
righto, GNOME is a clone of KDE, made by the free software foundation because KDE was not originally "free software".
Here's a brief rundown of how it is all organised on a graphical *nix system, this is different to windows, where it all happens mysteriously behind the scenes:
1. Linux - this is the operating system kernel. you need one of these to run anything. You won't usually communicate with it directly.
2. The apps and utilities - these are the stuff you actually use on the system. they let you copy files, edit files, move files, and do all the stuff you do with a computer.
3. XWindows - This is software that is available free with nearly no restrictions, and as sucj is used for all (that i have heard of) *nix graphical environments. If you have more than just text on your screen, you are running X.
4. Window Manager - This runs in X to let you have windows and so on happening in your graphical environment. many window managers are specific to a particular desktop, we'll get to that in a minute. X comes with its own simple window manager, but you will probably never use it, as you will probably use a desktop environment which will come with a window manager of its own.
5. The Desktop Environment - KDE and GNOME are desktop environments. They provide taskbars, menus and all sorts of graphical apps and utilities. To begin with a program which was written for KDE could not be run in GNOME and vice versa, but now many (not all) programs can run in both. There are now several other desktop environments available (mandrake comes with about six others) and my favourite is XFce. Others are windowmaker, fluxbox and enlightenment. Most of these environments can run KDE and GNOME programs too, or they would make themselves redundant.
GNOME and KDE each have their own window managers and file browsers. File browsers do the job of windows explorer, and window managers control all the colours, fonts, toolbar sizes and so on, to use a rough analogy. You often are best advised to stick to the window manager that's supposed to be used with your particular desktop, but you don't have to. Some desktops deliberately attempt to be compatible with other window managers. I think enlightenment aims to be a flash, zippy looking environment that is still totally GNOME compliant.
Anyway, that's enough for now, i am sure, hope that clears it up a bit! :D
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it does, and thank you. one other thing, i was searching for a program on mandrake that was similiar to disc scan and defrag. is this not as important in linux, or is there a way to defrag?
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the file system is better so it is not necessary to defrag. i am sure somebody will be able to tell you a way though...
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The command that is similar to "CHKDSK/SCANDISK" in DOS/Windows is "fsck". This runs automatically when needed (a power-off without a shutdown for example). For more information on this command do a "man fsck" from a shell prompt. It would not be wise to just run this command on a running system though which should be explained in the manual page.
And a defrag is not necessary on a Linux file system.
[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: void main ]
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There's no such thing as defragment in Linux and thus no tool. A Linux file system, whether we're talking about ext2, ext3, reiserfs etc cannot be fragmented. So, no more file fragments for you ;)
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Not entirely true. All of the file systems that can be used on Linux can/will become fragmented to varying degrees, however it does not become a problem like it can in Windows. It would be very unlikely that you would ever notice a performance degradation because of it thus does not require defragmenting.
The only way I know of to actually defragment a file system is to back up the data using a file based backup utility (tar/cpio/etc), reformat the file system and restore the data. But as I said, this is unnecessary and you will not gain any noticable performance increase in most cases.
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Yes I agree, but Linux file systems really make defragmentation superfluous as they prevent fragments from occcuring. However, as you said, fragments in Linux file systems are really unnoticeable in the way that they don't reduce the performance of a system like in Windows.
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okay, i felt the obligation to to let you all in on how i am currently feeling regarding my new linux os.
since, i have no experience with linux, i felt that this would be helpful to all newbies of linux.
i will state all of my concerns with the system that i have found thus far and also a few features that i love thus far. keep in mind that i have never used another os besides windows and that i've only had linux for a little over 24 hours.
here we go:
it is confusing to me so far. the many different features like gnome, kde, etc...
i have mainly been experimenting with kde.
i hate the fact that my dvd doesn't work, but i love xine. i know that there is a way to get it to play dvd's with a plugin, but installing on linux seems a little more difficult.
i have a cable connection that only allows for one computer to be hooked to it, unless you pay for more. this is a future option.
however, i planned on using a free connection like netzero or juno to cruise around online with the linux system. i am very excited to check it out online, but connecting has been impossible thus far. i can't seem to connect with netzero. setting up is a little more difficult than on windows.
i am wondering why my .txt files do not open on the system and wish that i could use dreamweaver and flash on linux.
also, i wish i could use photoshop and fireworks. these are really the only programs i feel that i need. dreamweaver is very important, as that is what i use for my website.
the media players seem to have more options and i believe that i like them more. the only thing that would suck is not using my musicmatch program. of course, i haven't even checked to see if this can be done or not.
the games are much cooler than on windows. i am of course, talking about the games that come installed on the systems.
overall, the system seems much, much, much, more stable than windows. no crashes....
i think that once i get over the confusion of little things and learn about the system more, i will appreciate it even more.
i love the fact that the software seems to be free overall, and the work and unity amongst linux users is phenomenal compare to windows.
i have some security concerns since i do not understand the basics of what i need to do yet with kernels, etc... in order to be more stable.
overall, i find linux to be pretty damn competitive to windows and i think that there is a great possibility that people will begin to understand that windows does not rule the world. i do believe that linux is in many ways superior to windows. hell, if linux went around screwing companies and people over, i am sure that they wuld be on top of the world. fortunately, they are not like this and for that i am grateful.
people use windows because that is what is there and it's easy. it's more compatible with software because microsoft has cut hands and companies off to make it that way. i think that if i could use my main software -- dreamweaver -- that i would remove window completely from my system and just run linux.
that and the compatibility with other documents that i need to run is the only thing that i feel stops me right now.
there are some problem with the system that i have right now, but most of that is due to my own ignorance regarding certain things.
i want to get online, so if anyone knows how i can accomplish this without paying for an isp (since i pay enough for cable), please speak up.
once again, i would like to thank everyone here that helped me accomplish getting linux on my system, and for those that are new to linux and are afraid of getting in there... don't be.
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i think there is a utility called kppp that sets up dialup stuff... someone else would know better about that. I have never used Dial-up in Linux, only cable.
To replace photoshop you can use The Gimp which is an excellant imaging program.
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what burning software are you using? if it's nero make sure that you close the wizard, and select file --> burn image, otherwise, it is not burning the correct folders or file system.