Stop Microsoft
All Things Microsoft => Microsoft as a Company => Topic started by: worker201 on 19 September 2008, 15:29
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http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=675050&c=nw&nw (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=675050&c=nw&nw)
So I just moved to Seattle this past week, and the indie newspapers are really good. Like this commentary, for example. Seattle's city government has never made a big commitment to Microsoft. But this week, during a budget crisis, the mayor submitted a proposal to upgrade the city's email network to Outlook, a $5million project. City officials claim they're afraid of the obsolescence of their current Novell solutions, and conspiracy theorists claim the city is courting favor with Microsoft, the huge company just across the lake. In fact both are probably true. As one city employee stated, "We all hate Microsoft, but they've taken over the world. We've lost, therefore we must concede." Note that some anonymous tech gurus have stated that the city's current IT people aren't prepared for all the problems that a Microsoft email network will cause.
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You never know, they might have actually chosen pragmatism over idealism.
It's also possible that they chose Outlook because they feel it is the best software for them as it offers the best compatability with everyone else.
I don't know whether it is the best software for them as I don't know what their requirements are or what Novel currently offers them.
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Novell has been downhill ever since they got rid of NetWare.
I know lots of companies that said goodbye to Novell after their move to do everything in Linux.
Most IT guys are actually scared of anything Linux or Unix, and see it as a threat. Because Windows is clicking something in the hope that it works, as is Unix and Linux is mostly thinking about what the hell you are doing. Most IT professionals aren't prepared to take that step.
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Did a little digging and found out that Groupwise's next major release is in beta right now, and a final release is expected before the end of the year. There's at least one more major release planned after that. So the mayor's excuses about Groupwise support disappearing seem a little less reasonable now. Probably a moot point - no city council on earth (except Redmond) would greenlight a $5million computer upgrade when the city is $50million in debt. Which one might construe as evidence that the whole thing was just a symbolic nod toward Microsoft.
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The decision about Groupwise was clearly stated to be caused by a lack of a market. Even when Groupwise release the next version, it costs money to upgrade to that. Are you implying worker that the city should cease having email until the debt is paid?
It's funny how you have no opposition to the welfare spending of your Government at present in debt also, you hypocritical fuck.
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Goddammit, why do you have to be such a fucking douchebag all the time? I mean, seriously, every fucking post!
No implications were made that the city should not use email until they are debt-free. The implications were that the city should continue to use their current fully-functional email system until the costs of the upgrade can be more easily absorbed by the budget. Pay off your credit card and then buy a new car, that's basic finances.
And seriously, you can't hold me responsible for the fiscal fuckwittedness of the Bush administration. If they had asked me specifically for instructions, and I told them "Don't worry about where the money comes from, spend all you want on this bullshit war - and feel free to cut taxes in a vain attempt to boost your own popularity while you're at it" then you can call me a hypocritical fuck. But until you can produce evidence that I actually supported that particular set of policies, you can STFU and GTFO. This is it, I'm through.
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This article lacked an objective investigation into the event, there is no mention if the current system works or not. There is not enough information in this thread for you all to be making fleeting attempts to explain what you lack the evidence to explain. I apologize for my behavior in the above post, but the complete lack of anything but assumptions in this thread does make it useless as an entirety. Unless you fancy the sport of watching what fleeting assumptions you made happened to be true by chance.
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The article which I posted above was a knee-jerk reaction by the reporter to a memo circulating out of the mayor's office. Now, months later, it seems like the reporter got everything right. The mayor has become extremely adamant about this, and demanded that the switch be finalized before the end of the year. I happened to talk about this incident last night with a high-ranking IT official with the city of Seattle, who shall remain nameless. I'll refer to him as F (not his real initial), and all you need to know about this man is that he is in a position to know the truth.
First, F says that the primary impetus behind the mayor's desire to switch from Groupwise to Exchange was mostly one of convenience. Mayor Nickels probably had a friend at some other city tell him how Exchange eliminated some minor inconvenience somewhere (which may or may not have been true), and Nickels jumped on it like a dog on a mailman. It goes without saying that the mayor doesn't know enough about IT to know the difference between one email system and another. It also goes without saying that the mayor doesn't realize how big a job the switch is.
Another thing F pointed out is that the mayor is up for re-election next year. Whether that means he's got some secret deal with Microsoft, we'll never know. But F believes that the mayor is interested in some sort of personal legacy - something he can point to as a technological progress he alone was responsible for. Which is probably why the mayor is taking a particular interest in the email project - normally, the mayor would have better things to do.
F also mentioned that one of the problems with the whole affair is that is has way too much to do with Seattle's relationship with Microsoft. Apparently (I didn't press for details), Seattle has done Microsoft favors in the past, and Microsoft has implied that it would repay the favors. This kind of mutual back-scratching goes on in municipal government all the time, and is nothing new. But when the city went to Microsoft and asked whether some sort of discount or deal could be worked out, Microsoft refused. Which made the city IT department so angry that they tried to kill the whole project. At that point the mayor stepped in and told the IT department to basically "get it done or find a new job".
So the switch from Groupwise to Exchange is going to happen, and the initial planning stages have already begun. The mayor has insisted that it be done before the end of 2009, which will be just in time for February special elections. Believe it or not, having a year to complete the project might not be enough time. The amount of interim hardware that has to be put into place in order to ensure that email service is uninterrupted during the switch is staggering, and the amount of extra security that will have to be built in is also monumental. Because of the way Seattle is set up, it's not just municipal employees either - Seattle owns its own water, electrical, and garbage utilities, so the replacement of servers and the seamless introduction of new email software extends all the way to dams in British Columbia and windfarms in Oregon. Not to mention the extra support that a major change like this involves.
Because of how complex the situation is, F says it's going to cost a lot more than anyone ever imagined. But the project department has built in a number of what project managers call "kill points". These are specified intervals at which the project is reevaluated to a certain scope/cost/schedule standard. For example, they may identify ahead of time that if costs exceed $10 million by March 1, it is time to abandon the project and cut losses. Since the city had an IT project about 5 years ago that exceeded $100 million before it was finally scrapped, this sort of kill point evaluation will be taken quite seriously. The mayor won't be happy, but he can't fight that kind of fail.
In regards to the future of Groupwise, F calls that a self-fulfilling prophecy. If someone gets nervous about future support and ditches, it makes worrying about future support more realistic, and a lot more companies will ditch. Eventually, because so many customers have ditched, Groupwise will actually curtail support for the product, forcing the original prophecy to become true.
Back to the original discussion trend of the thread, there's not any obvious evidence that there is some kind of conspiracy between Seattle and Microsoft. It is pretty clear that Microsoft's actions have complicated the issue, though, but that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone here.
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Just curious, is there anything really wrong with Groupwise, besides it maybe being older?
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GroupWise is a great product, I used it both on client and server side.
Great features, iCal integration (=sync stuff to your BlackBerry, integrate with Google Calender and Remember The Milk), best system for e-mail I've ever seen, you never miss an appointment, I could go on and on.
There is a fear however, that Novell will ditch GroupWise, like they have with Netware.
And, many IT departments in small business aren't fond of UNIX or Linux, like "Novell Open Enterprise", they want everything to be Microsoft (anything else is threatening because that's all they know).
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My source confirms that Groupwise is working great, and they were thinking they could get another 3-5 years out of the current version.
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I just don't understand this. "Why fix it if it ain't broke" sorta thing. In 3-5 years they could at least lay down the groundwork for outlook, update older hardware etc..Just get things in general ready for outlook in case groupwise were to be ditched. But yeah, I do not see how they plan to do a citywide project like this in a year. It has taken my school system about three years to convert from Windows 2000 to a custom Windows XP Profesional, and they were still using the same systems too, not just buying a new computer.
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The mayor wanted to use Outlook.
It really is that simple.
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So? You can use Outlook with GroupWise Server.
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Perhaps future throwbacks from microsoft is they go all outlook
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I don't actually know what email client the mayor prefers, I just threw that out there as an example of how simple and baseless the whole thing really could be.
I'm not sure exactly what email clients will be used, as I'm not sure which ones are Exchange compatible. Nor do I know if choice of email program (or browser) is available citywide. I'll ask about that next time I see him.
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Now would this change even effect tings like libraries and other community accessible computer systems. Not just limited to government?
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The city of Seattle email system. I guess if it involves City Light and Public Utilities, it involves the library and the rec center too. Public access terminals, like those in the library, probably don't have client email access outside the browser. But if they do, I assume they are included.
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Just seems like an awful lot of expense for not so much benifet.
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That's what the city's IT department said.
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Some more info:
- I confirmed that the upgrade will extend to all known computers run by the city of Seattle, which includes those at dams in western Washington
- I found out that city of Seattle employees do not get to choose their own browser or email client. Currently, they are using IE6 and the Groupwise email client. After the upgrade they will be using IE7 and some version of Outlook.
- One of the reasons the upgrade will be such a pain in the ass is that they are using directory services, which allows each computer to access a centralized address book.
- Another reason the upgrade will be such a pain in the ass is that they are also implementing at the same time a message archiver, so that emails will become part of the official correspondence of the city.
Last night, we were talking about IT projects in general, and what causes them to succeed or fail. If you've ever read the cartoon "Dilbert", you have some idea of how to get a project to fail. Interestingly, this guy told me that one project description that runs up immediate red flags is "take this piece of software and install it on our computers". One of the main reasons is that all executives tend to think that is a retail cost + 5% project that can be done over a weekend. Maintaining Photoshop on 1000 computers (for example) requires nearly constant maintenance - and the product will be outdated in 6 months. Nothing is ever easy at that kind of scale.
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in a true freemarket economy, only liars, cheats and idiots actually get to make these kinds of decisions.
thousands of guys with computing degrees can be shouting "no!!!! that's stupid!" and so long as one guy with a certain job title (but no computing training) says "do it anyway, i'm up for reelection soon" (or whatever his motivation is, could be "do it anyway or microsoft'll release the kinky bondage photos to the press") then they're all stuffed. That's capitalism.