Stop Microsoft
Operating Systems => macOS => Topic started by: Calum on 3 June 2006, 19:17
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i've never owned a mac, and always wanted one, because they're cool but i don't have any money
now i own one! i found it at the side of the road. somebody had thrown it away, complete with peripherals (all minus the kettle lead). they had even taped a note saying "working" to it, helpfully. anyway, i got it home, dried it out (it had been rained on overnight) and now it appears to work fine. it is fifteen years old though, as it is an Apple Classic II. Here's some info on it, i am sure you will be riveted to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_Classic_II
http://www.machine-room.org/computers/395/
http://www.lowendmac.com/compact/classic.shtml
i have no idea even what the specs are of this machine really, though i plan to go about learning its ins and outs before i take any software related action. at the moment it appears to have MacOS of some sort with M$ Word and Eudora (and some other stuff) installed. It does not have a serial port or a PS/2 port so i can't use my own mouse in it (which is a bit crap, but tolerable) it doesn't seem to have a parallel port either, in fact that first link above has photos of what it does have, but i have no idea how to make it use my existing printer (a samsung ml-1210 which i also need to use with my real computer, running FC4) or anything. Also, i have no idea what sort of disk size it has, but i suspect its 40MB in total, i know it has 4096k of memory because that's all it says in "about this macintosh". it has an actual button on the side of the machine which brings up what appears to be an onscreen command prompt but whatever i type i can't even bring up any error messages. i would LOVE to get a dual boot with some sort of linux going on this machine but it has only a floppy drive, and i have no idea what i would need to install a CD drive for it. i do have a zip drive, but it is USB, not parallel, so this is not an option for this mac as it predates USB. i really don't want to hose its existing setup and i don't have any install disks for it, so there it is.
now, i haven't really asked any proper questions, but my aim is to have fun with this mac and learn about it without screwing it up in any way along the route, anybody got any helpful suggestions? i did use these machines in high school, but cannot remember anything at all (except how to use good old M$ word of course! :-) )so, suggest away.
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Damn why cant that happen here :(.
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You could try installing NetBSD (http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/mac68k/) on it.
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the macos is 7.5 and ms word is word 4. eudora appears to have been uninstalled though, and so far i can't get fedora to see the floppies i save stuff onto with the mac, but i think fedora is completely shit at floppies anyway so i don't think it's the mac's or the floppies' fault.
i still know nothing else about it though, isn't there some sort of manual or something?
that's an idea, i'll search for a manual, and i might try searching for macintosh classic on ebay to see what sort of peripherals people are saying it's compatible with.
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Shame OpenOffice is far too bload to run on such an old machine, have you tried Abi Word?
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You could try installing NetBSD (http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/mac68k/) on it.
from the link:
and most desktop systems can boot to a usable state.
hmm, i don't want to fuck it all up though, i have no way of installing its existing software back onto it if i want to you see.
that would be very cool however.
i wonder if it could have X and all that on it, or if i could get it to connect to my router with netBSD (probably, though i have no idea how to do this in macOS 7.5)
by the way, if it is running macOS 7.5, then does this mean that even though it has a b/w screen, it is thinking in colour?
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Shame OpenOffice is far too bload to run on such an old machine, have you tried Abi Word?
nope, i have so far only looked in the control panels and tried to figure out the intricacies of saving as rtf in such an old version of word (there are a lot of conversion dialogs to work through). i didn't know abiword would install on a MacOS, and i have no idea how i would get it onto the machine considering the lack of any CD drives and the array of mystery ports that bear no resemblance to anything i know about.
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Ubuntu 6.06 (http://www.ubuntu.com).
Of course I'm messing. I tried to install it on a neighbours almost-10-year-old PC and it wouldn't boot - shitty CD ROM drive I think.
I think this is the computer that my physics teacher has in the lab for, I would call it, "scientific inspection". We should liberate that mac.
Actually it might not be, the one in the lab takes only FLOPPY floppy disks.
EDIT: I've never seen the mac in school powered on... Maybe he hurt it?????
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by the way, if it is running macOS 7.5, then does this mean that even though it has a b/w screen, it is thinking in colour?
The default video chipset in the b/w Macs only displays 2-bit: black and white. The only way to get otherwise is another video card, which IIRC the Classic II doesn't have a slot for.
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For old computers try DSL and feather ... or if you don't like them or can't use them (cuz it's a Mac) just use the very light-weight programs they use ... that's what I do, but mostly for speed, not that I can't run GNOME instead of fluxbox, but I prefer speed.
For example you can try FLWriter (got it from DSL app specs (http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/applications.html)), not sure how to get it to work.
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you kan yank off the HDD
and connect it as a seccondary to another Mac :)
or a IBM compatible computer and have an emulator
or something I do not have any exp with a MAC
[OFFTOPIC]
You know such things happen
even in here
just the other day a friend of mine found a working 450 mhz 128 sd ram
6 gb hdd on side of the road
it was missing all the periferials
so now he uses it as a router and sound box ;)
he commands it with telnet over the lan ;)
[/OFFTOPIC]
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I have this same Mac on my network, with 16mb of ram (the max it will take) and a 700mb HD.
You can download System 7.5.5 for free from Apple's web site in their section of obsoleted software; I used floppies. It helps to have another Mac in the process to format the discs as HFS and also uncompress them while maintaining resource forks and other classic irritations.
The essential peripheral for any compact Mac is a SCSI > Ethernet adapter from Asante. This adapter came in two forms: one self-powered from the SCSI port, and another that required an AC adapter, but also provided a chainable SCSI port on the back for attaching stuff like extra hard drives, a CD ROM, etc. without detaching the ethernet adapter. Important note regarding the adapter in any form: autosensing 10/100 or 10/100/1000 hubs cannot identify the Asante adapter; the only workaround is to spend dollars on a switch where each port can be manually assigned or to just attach an old 10 BaseT hub.
System 6 is nice on this Mac, but lacks built in TCP/IP if I remember correctly, so it requires digging and configuring things such as MacTCP -- not real fun. I opted to take the performance hit and go for 7.5.5, which isn't a big deal since I have the maximum amount of ram.
Once networked you have a few different options for file sharing (and by the way, I never got DHCP working correctly, so I had to manually assign an address, your milage may vary). You can use a standard FTP client and setup an FTP server on your network, you can also use SCP through NiftyTelnet (though, it only supports SSH1, not SSH2), you can also find another Mac running OS 9 or earlier and enable AppleTalk on it. OS X 10.4 cannot speak Appleshare over Appletalk, only Appleshare over TCP; System 7.5.5 must use Appleshare over Appletalk; netatalk can do this, and can be configured on any Linux/BSD box. Earlier versions of OS X allowed you to enable Appleshare over Appletalk in netinfo, but that disappeared at some point (probably for the better).
The SCSI ethernet adapter is slow; do not expect any blazingly fast speeds. Moving data feels slower than dial up sometimes. NetBSD (and maybe Debian 68k) should be installable over the serial port, as the guy who owned mine previous to me had done that. However, I do not believe Linux or BSD support the Asante ethernet adapter, so your outside communication will be limited to the serial port. If that sounds enticing to you, go for it I guess.
On the other hand, this machine will run up to Mac OS 8.1, and I think 8.1 (or 8) introduced built-in web sharing. I'm using MacHTTP (others are probably fine as well, but do not let you change the default port). For browsers you can use MacLynx, Mosaic -- there was another text based browser I found recently that's decent. I don't turn the thing on much; it's more of a decoration on my kitchen table.
Game wise, you'll want to check out Shufflepuck Cafe. All in all, it's probably not worth your time, and the money you'd waste on it you could get a G3 PowerMac (at least beige) and run something more modern -- like OS X. I only tinkered with mine out of boredom one weekend.
A picture of my beast is attached.
[verwijderd door de beheerder]
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hi bedouin! firstly, i am glad to see you here. i really thought you had gone for good (my first clue was when you said you were leaving these forums for good), but welcome back anyway, you're not somebody i wanted to never hear from again! right, here we go!
I have this same Mac on my network, with 16mb of ram (the max it will take) and a 700mb HD.
cool! i will need to look into that at some point, but not in a hurry. i don't even know how to find out the size of its current hard drive! i know it has 4MB of RAM, but i don't think that was the standard for this one, so perhaps the previous owner upgraded some of the insides? its more likely they did it for him in the apple centre when he bought it actually.
You can download System 7.5.5 for free from Apple's web site in their section of obsoleted software; I used floppies. It helps to have another Mac in the process to format the discs as HFS and also uncompress them while maintaining resource forks and other classic irritations.
hmm. well, that is good news, i will be doing that, and i have 3 boxes (16 inch house moving type boxes!) of floppies, but i don't have access to another mac. i would be downloading on the real PC though, which currently has FC4 (useless at floppies) but by that time, it will have been replaced with something i can actually configure (as opposed to something i can only use). i think any decent system (slackware for example) will be able to handle hfs disks no bother, i know i used to use hfs zip drives with slack 8.0 anyway.
The essential peripheral for any compact Mac is a SCSI > Ethernet adapter from Asante. This adapter came in two forms: one self-powered from the SCSI port, and another that required an AC adapter, but also provided a chainable SCSI port on the back for attaching stuff like extra hard drives, a CD ROM, etc. without detaching the ethernet adapter.
excellent. i will be attempting to ebay one of those
Important note regarding the adapter in any form: autosensing 10/100 or 10/100/1000 hubs cannot identify the Asante adapter; the only workaround is to spend dollars on a switch where each port can be manually assigned or to just attach an old 10 BaseT hub.
ok, well i have a DI-604 router. now, please bear in mind i am someone who is not even sure of the difference between a hub, a switch and a router, so when it comes to complicated terms like autosensing, i am out of my depth. i *may* have the manual for the router but as i recall it is useless (totally dumbed down and 100% microcentric), but i maybe the www knows something about whether it is autosensing or not.
System 6 is nice on this Mac, but lacks built in TCP/IP if I remember correctly, so it requires digging and configuring things such as MacTCP -- not real fun. I opted to take the performance hit and go for 7.5.5, which isn't a big deal since I have the maximum amount of ram.
well, the previous owner obviously found 7.5.3 OK for his 4MB of RAM, however i wouldn't know what sort of apps he would have been using. i suspect netscape and eudora via PPP and word and that's about it. it's got freePPP installed anyway. using third party software to try to connect to the net is a big turn off for me since a few failed attempts at connecting freedos and windows 3.11 to the net.
...OS X 10.4 cannot speak Appleshare over Appletalk, only Appleshare over TCP;
what? that's useless! this is one thing apple does peeve me off about. for no reason, they change all their specs so that their technology is not compatible over a gap of more than a few years. i think there's no excuse for this most of the time, and they have a duty to the people who shell out money for this stuff. same deal with firewire/usb and many others. but i am digressing.
System 7.5.5 must use Appleshare over Appletalk; netatalk can do this, and can be configured on any Linux/BSD box.
that sounds good.
The SCSI ethernet adapter is slow; do not expect any blazingly fast speeds. Moving data feels slower than dial up sometimes. NetBSD (and maybe Debian 68k) should be installable over the serial port, as the guy who owned mine previous to me had done that.
which one's the serial port? is it the circular one to the right of the scsi one? that's something i am a little lost about. However, I do not believe Linux or BSD support the Asante ethernet adapter, so your outside communication will be limited to the serial port. If that sounds enticing to you, go for it I guess.
actually, i would probably just use macOS exclusively then, i have fond memories of this model and its system from high school, then when i went to college they had windows 3.11 (obviously the high school had a better budget than the high school, their computers were all older Acorn BBCs or newer Apple Macintoshes (well, newer for the early nineties), there was only one windows machine in the whole school i think, or possibly too. oop! digressing again!
On the other hand, this machine will run up to Mac OS 8.1, and I think 8.1 (or 8) introduced built-in web sharing.
really? i saw somewhere, i think it was lowendmac, that 7.5 is the highest you can put on this machine. i suspect i really would need to ramp up the RAM if i wanted to install 8, yes?
I'm using MacHTTP (others are probably fine as well, but do not let you change the default port).
would you recommend this daring software upgrade, considering i am not about to upgrade the RAM, or would you say getting an asante object is the best plan?
Game wise, you'll want to check out Shufflepuck Cafe. All in all, it's probably not worth your time, and the money you'd waste on it you could get a G3 PowerMac (at least beige) and run something more modern -- like OS X. I only tinkered with mine out of boredom one weekend.
well, as soon as somebody leaves a G3 mac in a skip somewhere, i'm in! :-D games, i don't have time for anyway, so that's OK, unless they are like really old NES ones or something, and i suspect zophar's domain can fix me up for emulators there if i want them.
while we're at it, here's a picture of mine in its new home: http://www.polytheism.org.uk/pix/macclassicii.jpg
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Ah, those compact Macs are just so...I don't know, cute? :D
ok, well i have a DI-604 router. now, please bear in mind i am someone who is not even sure of the difference between a hub, a switch and a router, so when it comes to complicated terms like autosensing, i am out of my depth. i *may* have the manual for the router but as i recall it is useless (totally dumbed down and 100% microcentric), but i maybe the www knows something about whether it is autosensing or not.
Pretty much all routers are autosensing. I think many also let you select a specific speed, but only for all the ports, not just one.
But the big news here is holy shit it's bedouin...
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I thought my free Mac was archaic. A friend of mine took a contracting job in Iraq for a while, and made some decent money. When I started going to school I told him my old laptop wasn't going to keep up, so he told me I could have his old one because he'd paid cash for a new one while he was there. Later on he told me he had an old iMac that he wanted to get rid of, so I happily took it. It's a G3 333Mhz with 32 Megs of RAM. Not the most useable, but I was able to connect it to my router and surf a little bit. It's more of a novelty, but from what I understand it should run OS X up to 10.3 if I upgrade the RAM.
It came with Mac OS 8.6, which from what I understand is one of Apple's worst OS releases. I got 9.1 and upgraded to 9.2, which is a little better.
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Cool that you found a mac. If I were you I would put it at the highest, Mac os 7.5 as I believe that anything higher would probably kill it in RAM needs. Oh, and I never knew there was Linux for the Motorola processor. Aren't they like all for PPC?
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One correction, the maximum amount of ram for this machine is actually 10mb. It's been so long since I've turned it on that I totally forgot. The LEM article you linked is actually for the Mac Classic, which is different than the Classic II. I'm guessing you actually have this (http://www.lowendmac.com/compact/classicii.shtml) machine, like mine.
I guess I was also off on the maximum OS it would run, technically. LEM claims 7.6.1 is the highest that it will go . . . however, I do remember hacks that would let you install 8.x on unsupported 68k machines with the 68030.
You can find out the size of the HD by just clicking on the hard drive and looks in the window . . . it will say something like "25.5mb available."
You might want to look into hfstools, or mactools -- there's some Debian package that has a number of tools for working with Mac filesystems and disks. Using a SCSI zip drive with this isn't a bad idea for moving big chunks of data if networking isn't an option (hell, it's probably faster).
Any modern router, switch, or hub will auto sense between 10 and 100mb. That means you need to find a cheapo 10mb hub and attach it to your current router, switch, hub, or whatever to force it to recognize the Asante adapter as a 10mb device. There's no workaround for this -- it's just like that -- no matter the model.
Netscape will be a dog on that machine. iCab is almost (un)usable (the only 68k browser still in development). Stick with browsers from its era. Mosaic and the very first version of Netscape perhaps. The best (meaning functional) browser I found for this machine was Wannabe (http://mindstory.com/wb2/download.html), a text based browser that works with many modern sites. MacLynx would be nice, except that it expands beyond the small screen of the classic and I can't figure out how to resize it; Ircle has the same issue, so I haven't found a usable IRC client either (that would be cool).
what? that's useless! this is one thing apple does peeve me off about. for no reason, they change all their specs so that their technology is not compatible over a gap of more than a few years.
Trust me, it's a good thing. Appletalk sucks. One of the reasons MS sucks is because they hang onto so much legacy garbage that should be trashed. Apple is about innovation, not whether or not it's convenient to move forward. If you're a network admin who still has Appletalk machines on your network -- well, I don't know . . . the heads up on this probably arrived 10 years ago.
which one's the serial port? is it the circular one to the right of the scsi one? that's something i am a little lost about.
The serial port is the port with a phone beside it, since it was usually used with modems. Never bothered with it -- perhaps your adventures will motivate me.
Shufflepuck really rocks. There was a Linux clone of it made called TuxPuck that rocks too. I'm still trying to find an OS X binary somewhere (I hate playing it over X11 from another machine). While it's true the compact Macs had B&W displays, the games were designed with it in mind -- so a lot of times you really ended up with cool and innovative stuff that looked good in shades of gray. That's in contrast to the shitty CGA games that PC users had to endure, which were usually designed with EGA users in mind where 4 colors were substituted for 16.
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I can definetly recall "Appletalk" being among the options compiling the linux kernel... So modern gnu/linux distros can talk to old macs and mac os x can't!? That's.. mad.
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Mac OS 8.6, which from what I understand is one of Apple's worst OS releases.
I was under the impression that 8.6 was one of the best releases and 9 was one of the worst.
About the appletalk, Apple phased this old mac talk thing out in os 10.4. i noticed it when i tried to connect the powerbook g3 and os x wouldnt connect. however 9 can connect to X.
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I can't say I have any real experience with Macs outside of this free iMac (except for the Apple IIe's I used in the 7th grade), but I noticed 9.22 seems to be a little more stable and faster than 8.6. It's also possible to find a few programs for it. There is almost nothing that runs on 8.6 anymore.
What's really scary is how much MS software comes with it. The mail program is Outlook Express, it came with IE 4 for Mac, which I was able to upgrade to IE5 for Mac before MS withdrew support. I tried iCab, but IE unfortunately is a better browser on this system. I haven't gotten around to trying the Mozilla version that still runs on OS9.
I have thought about putting Linux on it. I just haven't gone digging for info about how.
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If you have a Mac you have got to try some adventure games on it. Monkey Island had me playing for hours.
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I can tell you right now with the mac that you have linux would not be as pleasant as a modern mac. Mac OS at those times was tightly integrated with the ROM, and even apple's AU/X had to go through Mac OS. If you don't believe me look at some pictures of AU/X on a GIS.
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Glad to see you're back bedouin.
You can download System 7.5.5 for free from Apple's web site in their section of obsoleted software; I used floppies. It helps to have another Mac in the process to format the discs as HFS and also uncompress them while maintaining resource forks and other classic irritations.
That's great, MS have taken down many sites offering downloads to their old software like Windows 3.1 and luckilly I know somewhere but I don't want to shout about it or break the rules so I won't say in public.
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excellent! thanks for clearing that up bedouin (and others), yes mine is just the same as yours by the way, a Classic II. It says 15.6MB in disk and 22.7MB available, so that answers that. no downloading tons of mp3s for me then!
my zip drive is now a USB only one sadly. it is a lot faster than my old parallel port one. it used to take literally 45 mins to copy 100MB, compared with, well, not much for the same amount with the USB one.
i will have to look into getting the hub and asante device on ebay then, are there a lot around do you think? (i know, it's just laziness, i could just search now).
On an unrelated note, i believe this is my 6667th post, on the day after 06/06/06. I had this idea the other day that i would get a screenshot of me having had 6666 posts on 06/06/06, but it didn't happen sadly, and now it's one day later, and i am one post too many, so tough titty to me, but there you go.
bedouin, i didn't realise this was your definite first reappearance on these forums so allow me to properly say welcome back as well.
welcome back, you were missed and a place has been kept for you.
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hey i found this cool webpage. http://www.nd.edu/~jvanderk/sysone/
it's actually about macOS 1, but the author compares it to system 7.5, so for me it makes a lovely starting point for somebody who hasn't used it since about 13 years ago!
also, i keep thinking how cool this mac will be. one of my friends said it wouldn't be good for much, but actually it boots up in 5 seconds and shuts down in 3, so i can have it in my little recording studio (i have a small home recording studio, but no soundproofing, so if i have a computer in there, it must be off when i am recording) and it will allow me to type up setlists, lyrics, lists of what's on each track of each recording etc, and then 3 seconds to shut down and back to recording! i never would have imagined it possible to get a computer so suitable for the studio! also, if it can connect to the internet, then that's 5 seconds to boot up, and then i can check my email! i know some of you no doubt have super streamlined linux systems that can boot in 4 seconds, but mine is a standard fedora core 4 so you know what that means.
no i am happy with my find, and expect it to remain useful for years (decades?) to come!
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ok, now. i had a quick look on ebay and nobody appears to be selling an asante scsi network adaptor at the moment, so i will have to bide my time. however, i wanted to ask, because i don't want to end up buying a bunch of wrong stuff, are these two items OK to use for the 10BaseT hub part of this plan to get the mac working?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=9737781139
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=9738250279
QUESTION TWO:
is this the Asante SCSI adaptor?
http://www.cancomuk.com/products/search.htm?show=Falling%20Price&code=32002&Asante%20FriendlyNet%20AAUI%20Transceiver%20BNC
if it is then i will buy it immediately, however i notice it has BNC sockets (i think), so presumably i then have to get a 10BaseT hub which takes a BNC plug... will i be able to get one of these that can be used with my D-Link ethernet router? will it be incredibly expensive?
networking has always seemed highly confusing to me, more questions than answers!
thanks for your patience with my potential dumbness! :-D
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The Netgear router would be nice since it's compact; I used to have one myself years ago. You'll likely not want to plug anything else into it other than the Classic, so it's probably a good idea.
The link to the ethernet adapter will not work with the Classic. It's for Macs that had an AAUI ethernet port.
You need to subscribe to one of the Low End Mac swap lists. Someone there will definitely have one.
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hmm, i would prefer to get one in the UK, let me see if there's a group in the UK on LEM.
in the meantime, i did some reading, and downloaded all the stuff for installing 7.5.5 ie: the 19 disk images for 7.5.3 and the three update disks to 7.5.5 however i immediately discovered these two confusingly conflicting pages and now i don't know if i want to use 6 instead of 7. i know 6 is what it would have come with originally, but 7 sounds like it has a lot of enhancements which 6 will simply not have. on the other hand i do not need support for a 4GB hard drive right now, and probably won't ever on this mac, so what to do? the arguments seem to be 6 is small and efficient, and 7.5 is stable and reliable.
Why system 6? (http://www.euronet.nl/users/mvdk/why.html)
More System 6 Advocacy (http://www.euronet.nl/users/mvdk/advocacy.html)
Why system 7.5? (http://lowendmac.com/tech/755.shtml)
next, i have apt-getted macutils so hopefully, with the internet's help it won't be too hard to convert my disk images (confusingly they are smi.bin files, part.bin files or sea.hqx files. this little comment (http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/1998/12/msg01964.html) makes me a little more aware of how to use macutils to get at these but i'm still a bit at sea. basically i simply want to find out what manipulation needs to go on before the files are ready to be written to floppies using dd (also i have a USB floppy drive, fedora doesn't (for an unknown reason) recognise the one attached internally to the motherboard. this is fedora's fault, it does it despite reinstalls even though other systems have no problem seeing this drive). or, will i have to use some other method of making the floppies, like just unpacking all the files and dragging and dropping?
one small question for the floor (other people than bedouin can answer you know!), the mac currently has word 5 installed (the oldest vrsion anybody i know has ever had installed, i was unable to install word 4 on my old laptop PC running windows ME, back in the day), is there some free office software i can get which will save in a relatively popular format? i am not keen on the idea of having to save things to floppies, fire up the "real" computer and then reopen it in OO.o just to resave in a more modern format. A reformat and reinstallation of the system (which is what i want to do on the mac, since it seems to have had a lot of stuff brutally deleted before being thrown out) will obviously erase the existing word installation. or can i back word up? perhaps i can simply copy a file to a floppy and copy back afterwards, does this seem feasible? perhaps this is slanderous, libelou and traitorous on this site to even suggest such a thing...
here's what i have downloaded anyway.
[calum@localhost MacOS_System7.5]$ ls
Disk_Copy_6.3.3.smi.bin System_7.5.3_06of19.part.bin
iCab_Pre2.97_English_68k.sit System_7.5.3_07of19.part.bin
MacDraw.dsk.sea.hqx System_7.5.3_08of19.part.bin
stuffit_expander_55.hqx System_7.5.3_09of19.part.bin
Sys_7.5.5_Update-1of3.sea.hqx System_7.5.3_10of19.part.bin
Sys_7.5.5_Update-2of3.sea.hqx System_7.5.3_11of19.part.bin
Sys_7.5.5_Update-3of3.sea.hqx System_7.5.3_12of19.part.bin
Sys_7.5.5_Update-Q_and_A.txt System_7.5.3_13of19.part.bin
Sys_7.5.5_Update_Tips.txt System_7.5.3_14of19.part.bin
Sys_7.5.5_Update.txt System_7.5.3_15of19.part.bin
System_7.5.3_01of19.smi.bin System_7.5.3_16of19.part.bin
System_7.5.3_02of19.part.bin System_7.5.3_17of19.part.bin
System_7.5.3_03of19.part.bin System_7.5.3_18of19.part.bin
System_7.5.3_04of19.part.bin System_7.5.3_19of19.part.bin
System_7.5.3_05of19.part.bin
i think i will just buy that netgear thing then. we used to use them as standard at my old work, and they seemed fairly reliable, and yes you are right i can't imagine wanting to plug anything other than the mac into it.
edit: and am i right in thinking that because this hub only does one network speed, this means it is not autosensing and is therefore compatible with the rest of the proposed hardware?
thanks all for your input, and sorry if all these questions etc are a bit boring, a new project always gets me thinking in 20 different directions at once.
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You could just use any text editor..
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for what?
(yes i know the obvious answer, but i don't think any of my questions were "what can i use to edit text with?")
PS: penguin, you have an incredibly good signature quote, my hat is off!
pps: my golly gosh, i found this fab howto for installing system 7.5 from scratch however it is like a recipe for goat and gnat cheese soup written in polish by a mathematician to me (ie: i can't understand quite a lot of it): http://web.whittier.edu/comp/macguide/Clean.cfm
hopefully i can use this as a learning experience.
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it will allow me to type up setlists, lyrics, lists of what's on each track of each recording etc
a text editor for that.
EDIT: ok maybe I didn't read this:i am not keen on the idea of having to save things to floppies, fire up the "real" computer and then reopen it in OO.o just to resave in a more modern format
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a text editor for that.
ah well, i see, but what i mean is that
a) it can be in the studio (not the same room as the real computer (whose name is harvey by the way) and
b) it boots in 5 seconds and shuts down in 3, making it perfect if you just want to type something out before you forget it and then get back to recording.
perhaps you mean a separate handheld text device or something? that would be fine (or of course a pencil?) but i actually do have this computer for free, so i might as well use it. also, it will have internet access in 5 seconds (well, you know, time to click on the browser and all that too), which will help with any music related internet searches i might suddenly feel urged to do while i am playing music, and that does happen a lot.
EDIT: oh i understand what you mean now, you mean, why use a word processor when a text editor will do, that is a very fair comment. setlists though tend to want to be in maybe 24pt text so you can see them from standing height when they are on the floor, that's my only answer. also, if i can get a bit more formatting versatility then why not? i expect the mac text format is similar enough to the unix one that there will be some simple filter script i can use, that's not really a huge deal, although it would be better if i could output standard files directly on the mac (text or otherwise) in case i want to email them. also if somebody emails me an MS word file, i would like to be able to open it on the mac, though this will become less likely over time as MS do deprecate their older versions of word over time. i did try to open a .doc file once in MS word 97 which i had made using the version of write.exe that came with MS windows 1.0 on the same computer, but suffice it to say it was a total disaster. i was disgusted that they can't even make their newer versions of ms word support its own file formats.
anyway, that's just more digression.
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perhaps you mean a separate handheld text device or something?
No - I mean you could probably use a text editor on the mac, instead of a word processor, if you wanted..
EDIT: ok I see your edit
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Or you might consider writing it in HTML or something. Technically the only advantage of a word processor over a text editor is more formatting opitons ... like HTML.
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I really can't remember how I got the 7.5.5 files into something more manageable. .sea files are "self extracting archives" and probably need opened on a Mac, or maybe StuffIt Expander for Windows can deal with it (do they make products for Linux?) If they ended up as .bin files, I probably used OS X's disk utility to write them to floppy disk. I don't remember much other than moving back and forth between my living room and kitchen with floppies in my hand about 40 times (I only had 10 disks around). Or I might have moved them over with Appletalk from OS 9 -- it's hard to say. The easiest thing to do, obviously, is find a SCSI CD-ROM and use an install CD when possible . . .
For editing text, I don't really see what's not modern about rich text files; I use them all the time for taking notes and what not (firing up TextEdit is easier than Word -- and needs less screen real estate). I think OS 7.5 comes with SimpleText, or whatever it was called. Hey, it even has a Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SimpleText) -- and Apple released the source to it apparently as well.
If you plan on spending more than $30 on this you've already spent too much. System 7 will probably mean saying bye-bye to your 5-second start up times as well.
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Just contributing what I know from experience:
(A) You're probably going to want to format the floppies HFS (hfsutils should help with that).
(B) MacBinary files are stored with a .bin extension (invisible to MacOS 9 and earlier by default). Opening those files on an alien system will likely just yield raw data, the contents of which will be useless on your current system. You appear to have multiple parts to a single self-extracting archive - that requires no additional software, but will only unpack on a Mac system. You can find a UNIX port of StuffIt directly from Allume (http://www.stuffit.com/unix/index.html), but I've no idea whether that will work with Self-Extracting Archives or not. If not, they have an SDK on that same page, and a quick journey through the APT repos should turn up something (though I doubt it'll say "StuffIt-compatible replacement" right there in the description).
(C) Take anything I may say with a grain of salt. I've upgraded 6.5 to 7, 7 to 7.1, and 7.5.3 to 8.5 (each on separate systems) but I've yet to undertake what you're doing here.
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.sea files are "self extracting archives" and probably need opened on a Mac, or maybe StuffIt Expander for Windows can deal with it (do they make products for Linux?)
well, i wonder if i could stick them on floppies, copy them to the mac and then extract them there and make the floppies using it. the original .sea files will have to fit on floppies in their current form though, which they look like they would.
If they ended up as .bin files, I probably used OS X's disk utility to write them to floppy disk.
cool, this suggests to me that .bin images are byte for byte disk images of the floppies, and so i can use dd to make the disks with those files. i will try all these things till one works though.
The easiest thing to do, obviously, is find a SCSI CD-ROM and use an install CD when possible . . .
nah! where's the fun? :-D
For editing text, I don't really see what's not modern about rich text files; I use them all the time for taking notes and what not (firing up TextEdit is easier than Word -- and needs less screen real estate).
cool! the only reason i asked is because i *really* don't know what's available, and which programs work, and i know that with macintoshes back in the day, most software did cost, so i have no idea which ones might be free now. your (plural) comments on this have helped though, you're right about the html too.
System 7 will probably mean saying bye-bye to your 5-second start up times as well.
well, as i say it currently has 7.5.3 and this is the startup time it has, however the disk size is one thing i am a little concerned about, which is why i was seriously thinking of trying to use 6 instead of 7, except i don't know what sort of features i would be missing, because the internet says alternatively very good or very bad things about system 6.
Just contributing what I know from experience:
(A) You're probably going to want to format the floppies HFS (hfsutils should help with that).
i will use hfsutils for this, because i should install it if i plan to network the mac, but if push comes to shove, the mac is working so i could format the disks using it, before i start. many of my old disks are in HFS format already i think, i got them from a university department that were throwing them out, they have always used only macintoshes in that department. i'll probably format them anyway to see if they have any bad sectors etc
(B) MacBinary files are stored with a .bin extension (invisible to MacOS 9 and earlier by default). Opening those files on an alien system will likely just yield raw data, the contents of which will be useless on your current system. You appear to have multiple parts to a single self-extracting archive - that requires no additional software, but will only unpack on a Mac system. You can find a UNIX port of StuffIt directly from Allume, but I've no idea whether that will work with Self-Extracting Archives or not. If not, they have an SDK on that same page, and a quick journey through the APT repos should turn up something (though I doubt it'll say "StuffIt-compatible replacement" right there in the description).
you never know actually, i find most of the apt descriptions to be quite helpful. anyway, that information is quite a help to me to understand what's going on with these new (to me) file types, so thanks for that. the best thing would be to copy the stuff to the mac and go from there, except it occurs to me that if there are 19 disk images, at 1206656 bytes each, and i currently only have 7MB free then i might be stuffed, unless i delete virtually the whole contents of the hard drive. i wonder how one is supposed to actually do this? what i might try is copy a couple of the .sea parts at a time, make the floppies and then delete the files (if you see what i mean) so i will gradually make all 19 on the mac, but there will only be a couple of files taking up space at any one time on its hard drive. sorry, was thinking out loud (well, onto the keyboard)
(C) Take anything I may say with a grain of salt. I've upgraded 6.5 to 7, 7 to 7.1, and 7.5.3 to 8.5 (each on separate systems) but I've yet to undertake what you're doing here.
well, i would imagine an upgrade would be more complicated than a clean install, and the only extra step i am doing is trying to make my own install floppies, with a linux machine and the mac as my tools, so it shouldn't be too hard.
not like that time i tried to force 16 bit windows to install natively on a non-MSDOS machine (http://www.microsuck.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8373)!
by the way, i would be really interested to know what you have to say about 6.5 compared with 7.5 because like i say if i can get away with 6.5 with no obvious issues, then i would do that to save disk space, however if you (from experience) know of some issues with 6.5 that might irritate a modern computer user, then please mention them.
edit: i wonder how come the boxed edition of macOS 7.5 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=9714568372) came as only seven floppies?!?!?!
edit 2: this is so confusing! i got as far as formatting a floppy on the mac, copying the first of the 19 files to it on the PC, then sticking the floppy in the mac again. copy the file to the desktop (hey, that should get it off the floppy and onto the hard drive, right?) wrong! it's still on the floppy! when i run it it complains that the other 18 parts are missing, so presumably they all have to be in the same place, but i don't have the HDD space for this! surely apple must have anticipated this issue since they were the ones who released the mac with this size hard drive in the first place!
so i still don't know how to literally put the file from the floppy to the hard drive, and i certainly can't think of a way to have all 19 files in the same place at once, and i am *certain* i shouldn't have to either. i think i should be able to make 19 disks and install straight from them. oh shit, you know what? i bet i have to get all the parts in one place to open the archive and then the content of this archive will be the disk images! well, i'm scunnered in that case, i have no access to a mac to do this.
i don't suppose anybody knows where i can download whatever is in this 19 part archive as straight disk images? if not, does anybody volunteer to open the archives on a mac for me and upload the contents somewhere (maybe inside a proper tar.gz file perhaps? or else you could PM me to get my gmail address and email it to me...
thanks for any answers you might have guys!
and i still don't know how to simply copy a file from a floppy to the hard drive, you see how clueless i am at using macintoshes?
edit 3: this is ridiculous! i have installed the hfsutils, macutils and stuffit for linux, but nothing is helping me to get the contents of these 19 files into some workable format! macunpack doesn't do anything to the files at all despite claiming to extract macbinary files. i have a feeling that ark from the kdeutils package *may* help, but i do not want to install kde (i don't have it installed) because it's enormous, simply to *try* this and see if it works or not. i even used cat to create one big archive (well, that's what i was hoping anyway, i just concatenated file 2 on the end of a copy of file 1, then file 3 on the end of that etc) but macunpack still leaves the file unchanged.
the lack of output in these programs doesn't help either, but that's another issue. at least they have man pages. the linux version of stuffit is an insult by today's standards too, it requires a manual installation! this literally means copying the contents of the man, doc and bin directories to your local man doc and bin folders (wherever they are in your $PATH) - this method of installation is about 20 years out of date! and for a nagware product that's not good enough. it doesn't even have a GUI!
so i'm back to square 1, anybody got any helpful suggestions? the internet doesn't seem to know anything that might help me (but then i didn't actually read the whole internet)
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My only other thought is that if you can get the primary self-extracting archive (the one with a .sea extension) onto the hard drive, it should ask you to "Insert the next disk <>" when one part completes. It's been a while since I did this, though, so it should prove interesting - also, the OS 7.5 disks have none of the r1 or r3 packs, so OS 7.5 could quite possibly fit on seven disks.
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well, you're seeing what i've got above, the update 3 disk set is sea files but unfortunately the 19 part set (downloaded from apple.com) is not in that format, it is smi.bin (apparently this is macbinary II format). i expected it to do what you describe when i put disk one in, but all it did was complain that the other parts weren't there, and then exit.
i suppose i could pay 12 quid (inc postage costs) (about 19 bucks you know!) to get the box set but why should i when it is officially abandonware?
i wonder if there is a .sea archive of this out there, in floppy sized bits that i could get instead...
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It would probably be easier for you to do all of the manipulation of archives in a Mac emulator like Basilisk II on your PC then take the floppies to the Classic when finished.
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This (http://os-emulation.net/basiliskII/system753_tutorial/index.html) might be of some help to you in at least getting Basilisk going on your PC and possibly putting the files on floppies from there.
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no use. i got as far as installing BasiliskII and also getting the ROM image from my mac, however the mac i have is too old (it does say that black and white macs are not supported), since the ROM image from this machine is not 512 or 1024 K in size!
so back to square one again, unless somebody wants to illegally email me a macintosh ROM image from a slightly newer machine (a powerPC has to be by the look of it), except that's highly illegal, and you know what apple are like. nevermind the fact i would only use it once to get the files off!
oh well...
edit: hold your horses, i'm not out of ideas yet...
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Just Google for one; there's tons out there.
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Try this:
1. Get 19 floppies. (Yeah, I know...but they are cheap.)
2. Copy each file to each disk.
3. Open the first, right from the disk. Perhaps then it'll ask for more disks?
By the way, the output of the 19-disk set is NOT disk images - it's just the install folder (I've done it myself). That's why I think this method could work. (I didn't have to do it that way, though, so I'm not sure.)
EDIT: Didn't see the second page. You can't use a PowerPC ROM image. I have a 68030 Performa image lying around somewhere if you can't find anything yourself.
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your instructions don't work, unfortunately, i've already tried the thing with doing the disks part by part on floppies and it simply complains that the other parts aren't there, and i don't have space on my mac hard drive to stick them all on at once (not to mention i still don't know how to actually copy things from the floppy to the hard drive!)
i did get basilisk II working despite most of the instructions on the internet being for ms windows, except one gem of a page which i think was linked to earlier in this thread. nonetheless, i still cannot see a Unix drive in BasiliskII and a bit of frustrated searching turned up a thing which has to be used if i want to get this. now it's a file system manager however the linux CLI only version of stuffit (using command unstuff) doesn't work! it exits abnormally each time i try to unpack this thing. so now i will reluctantly have to boot to ms windows, install stuffit trial for windows and unpack my FSM there, then come back to linux and use it in some way to enable BasiliskII to see my $HOME! (phew!)
wish me luck! it is a right pain in the arse that so many things are in these mac only formats and that there are no working tools to manipulate them on other architectures! you would think that stuffit would be easily available and working in all unices, since macOSX is a *ix, especially since the buggers don't give you a GUI, and that's the only real difference as far as i can see, when it comes to writing for darwin compared with BSD/linux etc (not that i am any sort of programmer you understand)
thanks all for your help, i will check back in once i have tried these steps to get BasiliskII to see my home directory.
Come to think of it, i might still be scunnered there... if the 19 files i downloaded do not contain disk images, and i do successfully decompress them in BasiliskII, and they end up to be a big directory of stuff instead, then i am still stuck since they will then be on this computer, not the mac! so what to do?
disk images for the install floppies is what i really need. all the tutorials assume i want to install macOS 7.5 on BasiliskII - i haven't yet seen one about getting the damn thing off and onto a real mac! how can this possibly be so difficult? why doesn't apple just make the thing available as disk images like anybody sensible would?
by the way thank you everyone for your answers, you've all put thought into your replies and i appreciate it.
edit: these guys (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=2397229) don't know the answer either by the looks of it
another edit: aha! i think i *may* have a solution. i haven't tried it yet but *please* tell me if anybody thinks this is the wrong way to go about it, because i don't want to leave the mac totally useless.
well, i will boot from a mac os 7.0 bootdisk that i have, then WIPE the contents of the hard drive (using HD SC setup from the boot floppy) - now i will have 22MB or so free! then i will copy all the parts of the 19 files to the mac using floppies THEN i will try to open them, still using the system i booted from from the floppy, and hopefully this will work. if it doesn't then i am left with a mac with no system, and a full hard drive of useless crap! that's the only snag...
i have just used the boot floppy to repair errors (some of which were found) and to verify the integrity of the hard drive.
actually, do you think it would be a good idea to just use the three update files to try and upgrade to 7.5.5 (bearing in mind it has 7.5.3 on right now, but in a dodgy state. one thing i wouldn't mind trying is to replace the system folder (still no idea how one renames things on this mac either! i really have to look up some sort of cheat sheet or something! (small edit: here's one: http://www.olemiss.edu/online/mac_basics.html so i'm sorted for that now)) with the much smaller one on the 7.0 bootdisk and then run the 3 update disks, or will this be catastrophic too?
so many unknowns! it's a bit like the twilight zone!
yet another edit: actually, if i am running a system from the bootdisk, is it possible to take the bootdisk out so i can use the floppy drive? or do i have to leave the bootdisk in there, thus meaning that i can't get anything else onto the machine until i boot from the hard drive again?
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ok, looks like i am getting the install disks for system 7 on ebay, and luckily the upgrades to 7.6 including the UK stuff are available as disk images.
secondly i am hoping to get the asante thing from a guy in the states, however it will cost me about 40 bucks to get it to scotland. also, its power supply expects a 110v input so that will have to be replaced. this may well be a misguided question for here, but does anybody have an idea what the shape of the interface is on this adaptor, so i can get an idea whether it will be easy to source a replacement power adaptor? what i mean is, do you know the shape of the power input thing. the adaptor itself takes a 12v input, however i haven't even thought yet about whether i need to consider the amperes as well, i am hoping this tolerance is built in as it is with laptops and such (so the same laptop can be marketed round the world with just a different power adaptor) but for now all i am worried about is the physical shape of the power adaptor input to the asante device. anybody know? perhaps with a nice digital photo? :-D
thanks in advance!
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Can't you test it with a 12V bench PSU or car battery then measure the current with a multimeter?
Or you could try powering it from the origional power supply with a step-down transformer.
http://www.maplin.co.uk/search.aspx?MenuNo=365&MenuName=Convertors&FromMenu=y&criteria=Convertors&doy=21m6&worldid=3
The 45W unit will probably powerful enough, but if not the 200VA unit will more than do, both are less than
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I can't imagine that they're referring to anything but this:
(http://graphics.worldweb.com/Icons/ElectricalOutlets/Type-A-Plug-grnd.gif)
for a 110v device that's (presumably) manufactured Stateside.
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I don't have the AC powered version so I couldn't really tell you.
However I do know you've spent close to $50 on this project already; I bought a tangerine iMac for $75 last year. You could get a beige G3 for $40 or so (maybe even for free).
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hmm. good point.
well, orethrius, i didn't mean the end which goes into the wall, i meant the end which goes into the device, carrying 12v after transformation, as you know there are many different shapes of this, some earthed, some not, etc etc.
well, bedouin i suspect i won't end up getting this asante thing from the states, because it looks like some other people are quite frantic to snap it up, and i am not too eager to pay the transatlantic shipping costs. Still, they are scarce as anything here. i suppose i should just bide my time and hope for the best. somebody on the LEM UK list told me to contact the YMUG and see if any of them have an asante scsi adaptor, so maybe i will do that too.
so far my expenditure has been to buy floppies of MacOS 7.0 for GBP8.50 approx including postage. I seriously begrudge this since it is officially abandonware, however this is my only option to get install disks since apple have cunningly only made the update disks available as disk images.
they are trying to show me that there really is no such thing as a free lunch.
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You can use HFVExplorer to write mac disk images to floppies:
http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/win/16530
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well, i can use dd to do it, surely, since they should be byte for byte images of the disks, also hfvexplorer requires windows, which is always a last resort for me. i do have a lot of useful mac related things installed, such as hfs and xhfs which provide a commander style file explorer capable of reading hfs disks, without having to have any kernel modules on the go which support hfs, but because apple do not make the base install disks available as disk images (only the updates) i have had to resort to buying a set of system 7 install floppies (which have yet to arrive)
by the way, for anyone interested, look how much the asante scsi adaptor sold for in the end: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8830970623
i did ask a local mac user group if anybody had a spare one for sale, but no response after almost a week...
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I hadn't priced the Asante adapters ever. I acquired my Classic II and all its accessories by trading an Amiga 500 complete with monitor and a bunch of software. I paid $20 for the Amiga a few months prior. I guess I made out pretty well considering the Asante adapter alone goes for $50+.
I was never an Amiga guy growing up so I couldn't appreciate it anyway.
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For what it's worth, HFVexplorer will run under Wine, but I'd imagine it has some non-ANSI C since it's a little quirky.
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but i don't need it, do i? am i missing something?
perhaps i will just have to wait till i find an asante scsi adaptor by the side of the road as well! i did think of knocking on the door where the mac was outside and asking if he had any other bits for it, but decided against it.
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quick! can somebody (realistically this may mean bedouin) tell me if any of this stuff will make me able to plug my mac into my router?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170001391287
i expect not since it's all either internal or USB, but i thought i should ask anyway...
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No, I don't see anything.
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oh well, back to the old drawing board.
thanks for the quick reply!
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similar post... this guy is selling an old mac laptop (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=020&item=300025364287&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1) with an asante netdock. does anyone know if this netdock is the device i am looking for? if so, i could get this just for the netdock, yes? there's no point if it's not the right thing though.
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If I had to guess, I'd say no. From the name, that sounds like something that would plug into the docking station port on the PowerBook Duo. The Duo had no internal...anything.
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What I suggested pretty much is the only way you're going to get ethernet on that machine.
I suppose getting it on the net could be accomplished through the serial port some way too, probably most easily with a Linux distribution.
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hey i trust you bedouin! i just wasn't sure if the two devices might be the same thing (or something) what with it being a macintosh laptop and all, i know next to nothing about apple's hardware, especially pre iMac. thanks for your comments dudes!
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well, i managed to buy an asante scsi adaptor on ebay for a fiver. haven't tried it yet or really looked at it. It does have an ethernet port on it though, can i plug that directly into the router or do i need a further adaptor of some kind in between?
also, mine hasn't come with a mains lead or adaptor. does yours use one of these, bedouin?
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It doesn't need an adapter. You will need a 10-Base T hub though because it WILL NOT work with autosensing switches. If you have a high quality router that lets you set the speed on each port that's another option, but most people don't. I also had no luck getting it to fetch an IP address through DHCP in 7.5, so static it is.
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hmm, so then i need a 10BaseT hub, which i then plug into the router, daisychain style, and i'll need to look up static IPs for that OS (I think 7.0 on it at the moment, or possibly 6.5)
Thanks bedouin,
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DHCP might work for you. Worth a shot. It never worked for me though.