Stop Microsoft
Operating Systems => macOS => Topic started by: slave on 14 June 2002, 03:35
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I have a question. If Apple controlled 95% of the desktop computer market share, and Microsoft controlled 5%, would you be on Apple's side or Microsoft's? Also, which company do you believe would be the worse monopoly? Microsoft wasn't always a monopoly, you know. Apple used to have a pretty big market share.
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another good question. it depends, on whether that if apple had 95% if they would abuse the computer market such as microsoft does currently. currently apple is doing a good job with there open source initative, however since the fact that apple sells its own hardware. one of the reasons that they sell there hard ware is becuase macos is ppc based and there is only one other company which sells consumer based ppc products that i know of
terrasoftsolutions (http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com/)
however if apple had 95 percent of the market they would probably cease to sell as much of there own hardware. and yes microsoft wasn't always a monopoly, ibm let them wiggle out from there controll
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I don't believe it would have any bearing on how I felt toward either company. I would still use Linux primarily and M$ software would still suck.
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I'm pretty sure that if MS had 5% market share that it would be gone within minutes.
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Well, MS used to have 5 percent a long time ago.
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About a couple days after they first started they became more than five percent. Especially after a little treason and a couple millions dollars inherited.
here is a little story:
When I was a wee lad i had 2 cents, i used that 2 cents to buy an apple. Well, i shined that apple all day and at the end of the day i sold it for 5 cents. The next day I bought two apples, shined them all day... then my grandparents died and i inherited a million dollars.
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Market share is irrelevant, Apple didn't abuse it's market share to shut out healthy competition. If apple had stolen windows from M$ and forced people to use their software, then they would be the ones in federal court now.
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If people didn't like Windows then they wouldn't use it. No one is "forcing" anyone to use Windows, to use IE, or to use MSN. People who say that are full of horse shit.
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no, most people just don't know better, they don't know that a better option is out there, or they just don't want to learn
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User: That's a pretty open-ended question...and there are a number of answers, but the following should pretty much put an end to your deliberations:
If Apple bought/stole their way to the top as M$ has, then Apple would suck arse as M$ now does.
If Apple had fairly won the market share from its competitors, maintained their superiority by offering products people really wanted to own, and allowed/inspired innovation in the marketplace, then Apple would be well worth supporting.
Personally, I support Apple because I find their products worth the money. My experiences with them have been nothing but positive...maybe my case is unique. However, even if my loyalty to Apple suddenly evaporated like so many OC'd P4s, I'd find it difficult to back a company convicted of commiting a felony...not to mention innumerable other crimes, and their abiltiy/willingness to squelch true innovation, while supplanting it with their own mutilated version and claiming originality. As an artist, those actions are hard to swallow.
My distaste (distrust) for M$ runs deeply...and because of that I'd champion nearly any anti-M$ cause...despite their allegiance to Apple (unless of course that cause happened to be more corrupt than M$).
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I am starting to think that XP Luser is the best thing that's happened to the Microsoft Eradication Society. Either he is very smart and spews his drivel to spark very good anti-M$ discussion, or he is one dumb cluck that can't get all his ducks in a row. Hmmm.... I mean not one person has ever agreed with him on anything. I honestly believe he must be the former. An anti-M$ genius in disguise.
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and he seems to know far too much about *NIX then the average home user.
edit,
besides how does he know that nautlilus is absolute sheet, and konquerer is considered better then most. other then reading or playing with it. you have a good point void
[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: choasforages ]
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yes well whatever his opinions, they are not the reason that i despise his posts.
The reason i despise XP Loser so much is that he fills up otherwise sensible threads with inflammatory garbage that make the forums difficult to read.
If he's going to do that, he should start his own topics, and stick to the non-technical threads.
Re: Apple, if Apple had a large market share and M$ had a small one, then they would be two different companies. How did Apple get to be so big in this example? Why did M$ stay so small? are you saying that they tried all their dirty tricks tactics in this fictional world, and they never worked? or are you saying that the hypothetical Microsoft are nice guys and Apple are the bastards?
This is not a good question, it is not intelligent, it contains too many variables to be seriously considered and it wastes people's time.
[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: Calum ]
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Aww comeon Calum. I think some of the posts generated by this thread are rather interesting, as a matter of fact I would say this is one of the first XP Luser post's that is not inflamatory but rather seeking to see what others opinions are.
My opinion is simply that monopolie's of any kind are not good. And even if Apple had monopoly status, and they were the most benevolent company in the universe, they should still be broken up or restructure themselves.
Monopolie's are bad for the economy and the consumer no matter who has them.
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Perhaps if MS had only 5% of the market share, they'd be scared straight and try to produce worthwhile programs for people to buy ;) . Just a thought.
You're right, people aren't forced to use Winders, but let me tell you a little story. Way back when, in the Dirty Days Of DOS, people discovered that they could copy programs from disk to disk. This wasn't a huge revelation, and there was really no way to stop it either. Back then, there were no product keys and no product activation to stand in your way. So, people borrowed MS DOS from their friends and copied it onto their computer. Then a few years later, Windows came out, in all its glory **chokes on own sarcasm**. So, these people that borrowed DOS a few years ago, if they had the system resources, decided to borrow Windows from a friend. This continued on until these users couldn't use their old 386's any more and decided to get a shiny, new computer. They toddled off to the computer store and low and behold, what did they buy? A Windows based PC. Why? Because that's what they were used to.
The moral of the story: People aren't forced to use Windows, but, MS would be dead in the water if it wasn't for Piracy. People won't pay MS' retail price for their software, but they will steal it, and they will accept it bundled from the OEM.
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makes me feel bad for selling someone a copy of Windows Molester Edition. /*then again the guy is an asshole*/ now i know he will go for microsoft shitware and maybe even buy an oem system with it on. and he will probably not try linux ever.
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if Apple dominated the market then i would still rather have Linux.....i don't like Windows or MacOS because there's no console anymore or nothing runs in that console if it's still around. if mac dominated then we would be slamming Mac's "stupid flashy colors and GUI" just as we do for Windows now.
FreeBSD rox ;)
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did't steve jobs leave apple for a while to form NeXT. what does one think NeXT step to be. it i a bsd 4.3 based unix. apple has probably been planing the move to unix for a long time. probably ever since steve jobs came back and apple bought out NeXT. and yes, windows does have a console and it is very usefull. at my school we always have a blast using M$-DOS to hack there computers. im seriuos. we got local admin acess in five minutes. we also made a machine boot up and not load its window manager, and also not load explorer. hmmm, maybe that would work as evidence....
actauully i prefer computer markets where there are many different places to buy parts. you can build a decent x86 machine for about 300. or 200 if youve got parts laying around. with ppc machines theres little chanche to buy and build your own that doesn't invovle a macintosh somewhere.
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it would rock if they managed to get that MacOS thing be CONSOLE BASED meaning you login as console and you can do stuff in console just like Linux. it would make AWESOME servers and there's tons of compatible stuff in terms of games ;)
all Mac needs is FreeBSD with a GUI that is easy for dummies to use (like me). i don't mean that it wipes your ass for you but it would at least be simple.....simple as Windows but powerful as Linux (and actually include the console this time)
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actaully you can do stuff like that, check out the fink project on source forge.i have seen the people on techtv/*mostly helping people with windows*/ bring up a teramanil on macosx, i have even seen xmms running on macosx, if you have macosx i would really recommend checking out the project
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quote:
Originally posted by Chooco:
it would rock if they managed to get that MacOS thing be CONSOLE BASED meaning you login as console and you can do stuff in console just like Linux. it would make AWESOME servers and there's tons of compatible stuff in terms of games ;)
all Mac needs is FreeBSD with a GUI that is easy for dummies to use (like me). i don't mean that it wipes your ass for you but it would at least be simple.....simple as Windows but powerful as Linux (and actually include the console this time)
that's exactly what OSX is.
i forget who it was on these forums who was trying out the whole MacOS/UNIX thing (maybe psyjax) but it looks very promising.
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no man, MacOS doesn't have a console. that is why it fails IMO (it's a speed thing, sort of like why Solaris is more common for servers than Windows2000 is)
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This was a topic of discussion before. Even though I don't have a Mac with OSX (or even a Mac) I believe it is possible to start Mac OS X without the GUI by modifying "/etc/ttys". Do some searching. I would love to play around with one but as I said, I don't have one. )-:
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MacOS does not have a console, OSX does. Not sure how to get into it, since i have never used it, take voidmains advice and search though, since if this is the reason MacOSX fails for you, you are liable to be pleasantly surprised...
[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: Calum ]
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quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
This was a topic of discussion before. Even though I don't have a Mac with OSX (or even a Mac) I believe it is possible to start Mac OS X without the GUI by modifying "/etc/ttys". Do some searching. I would love to play around with one but as I said, I don't have one. )-:
In OSX, you can just login as >console, which will forego all the GUI stuff. No modifying of files.
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quote:
Originally posted by Chooco:
it would rock if they managed to get that MacOS thing be CONSOLE BASED meaning you login as console and you can do stuff in console just like Linux. it would make AWESOME servers and there's tons of compatible stuff in terms of games ;)
all Mac needs is FreeBSD with a GUI that is easy for dummies to use (like me). i don't mean that it wipes your ass for you but it would at least be simple.....simple as Windows but powerful as Linux (and actually include the console this time)
Hey Choco, sorry I havent been around lately or I would have set you guys straight on this (http://smile.gif)
The MacOSX console is located under Applications->Utillities. Drag it to your dock to keep it handy. It works using the standard UNIX shell commands.
MacOSX is hevely based on freeBSD if you start up and hold down Apple+v you get to see the familiar UNIX debugging junk, and as someone has already pointed out you can run without the GUI in pure darwin mode by typing >console in the login.
Also, if you donn't want the GUI even installed on your system, Darwin is freely available for download. There is even a version fo XFree86 that runs both under Darwin and also rootless withing Aqua (the OSX GUI)! This to me is the coolest thing, I can actually be running KDE and MacOSX Aqua at the same time as if they were both the same GUI. Is that cool or what :D
Anyway...
OSX makes a great server, I use an old 233iMac G3 as a server and it runs great, even with the GUI. Granted, the GUI is slow, but it's webserving is not bad at all! Especially for the old hardware it is running.
Have a go at a Mac, their the best thing around as far as commercial OS's IMHO.
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quote:
Originally posted by Trumpet Winsock:
In OSX, you can just login as >console, which will forego all the GUI stuff. No modifying of files.
But it was my understanding that only gets you to "single user mode". In which case networking and other things would not be started. Is that correct? And what if you want it to automatically boot up to a console login when powered up (acting as a GUIless server for instance)?
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yo i don't have a Mac on me so i have to ask. how do you use the console? are the commands just like Linux/BSD commands?
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quote:
Originally posted by Chooco:
yo i don't have a Mac on me so i have to ask. how do you use the console? are the commands just like Linux/BSD commands?
They are very diffrent from Linux commands, that is, as diffrent as standard UNIX commands are from linux.
As far as UNIX commands go, yes. All of my reffrence materials are for BSD UNIX. I'm still very much a newbie at all this, but from what I have seen nearly every single command works as listed in all the manuals I have read.
Why shouldent it? It's the same kernel, for more on Darwin, far more than I could ever tell you, check out these links:
http://darwinfo.org/ (http://darwinfo.org/)
or
http://developer.apple.com/darwin/ (http://developer.apple.com/darwin/)
Void:
Im still looking in to your question, as I said I'm kind of new to this stuff (http://smile.gif)
Is there a simple way to test if you are in single or Multi-user mode? I mean all of the network commands work under Darwin mode, I'm not on the internet so I can't have someone ssh to me right now.
(Home from school for the summer, my comp. is in one room and I'm posting from my parent's computer. Ah... to be a goldbrickin college student ;) )
[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: psyjax ]
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psyjax, the Darwin commands are *very* similar to Linux commands. Linux, BSD, Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, etc etc, all have the same basic commands with some added commands specific to the OS/hardware but the "basic" commands are all pretty much the same. Very minor differences. I have snooped around on my coworkers Mac through "ssh" and was very comfortable..
[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]
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so MacOSX is basically BSD with a nice GUI? kool!
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You got it. Something I thought M$ should have done years ago if they really wanted a good OS and play along with the others, but their motives are far from "standards".
With the new Mac OS X you can run Xwindows along side the proprietary GUI and most of the open source apps are being or have been ported so you have the best of both worlds... One of these days I'll get one....
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so are you saying that MacOSX can run Linux programs?
if so, i think we have found the ultimate operating system
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No, I am saying that OS X can run Open Source applications (which also happens to be what GNU/Linux is made of). You know, like Apache, Xwindows, etc, etc. Not everything has been ported yet, but it surely will be in short order.
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quote:
Originally posted by Chooco:
so are you saying that MacOSX can run Linux programs?
In a manner of speaking. Linux programs have to be recompiled for the PPC processer. The majority of programs can be recompiled with very few changes, if at all.
The Fink Project (http://fink.sourceforge.net/) is a group of people who recompile, and make easily available, tons of linux software (with more added all the time).
All your major stuff is already recompiled... things like Gimp, hell even KDE itself.
quote:
Originally posted by Chooco:
if so, i think we have found the ultimate operating system
Correct. I won't even bring up running windows in VirtualPC (it's somewhat slow, but great for most apps). You can have apps from MacOS, OSX, linux, and windows all running side by side.
quote:
Originally posted by VoidMan:
But it was my understanding that only gets you to "single user mode". In which case networking and other things would not be started. Is that correct?
No. What you're thinking about is holding down Apple-S (at _boot_ time only).
Typing >console at the login screen (which you can get to any time) will give you a text login, where you still have to type in a username and password.
From there you can get online with lynx, start XFree86 with KDE, and so on.
quote:
Originally posted by VoidMan:
And what if you want it to automatically boot up to a console login when powered up (acting as a GUIless server for instance)?
That is possible. I don't remember the exact command though.
quote:
Originally posted by psyjax:
They are very diffrent from Linux commands, that is, as diffrent as standard UNIX commands are from linux.
true, but a begining linux user probably wouldn't notice any difference at all.
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quote:
In a manner of speaking. Linux programs have to be recompiled for the PPC processer. The majority of programs can be recompiled with very few changes, if at all.
misleading. You mean that GNU programs can be recompiled to run on OSX, and so can other open source programs, so long as they are compiled for the new system. As you say, you can get them precompiled, or if you have the source (not usually with win32/DOS programs, a normal occurence with many *nix/all GNU programs) you can recompile yourself.
Linux programs cannot be recompiled for OSX, in the same way that windows apps cannot be recompiled for it. If, however, you have the source code, they can be recompiled but *then* they will no longer be linux/windows apps.
CDEX is a windows program, and it's open source too, i say it's a windows program because it can be downloaded as a win32 executable, but if i knew how, i bet i could get the source and recompile it for BSD/GNU/Linux/OSX whatever.
Sorry to sound like i am laying into you but i think it is important not to be misleading or ambiguous when it comes to this sort of thing. Ambiguousness only leads to a false elitism.
[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: Calum ]
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None the less, changes to source code are few if any. This is very true, and a definit plus side for OSX. Programmers don't have to work to hard to port programs....
Hmmm... there is the word! Port, recompiling is essentialy porting :D . That's not misleading.
But ya, GNU and OpenSource apps are what he is refering to. At least that is the impression I got.
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No one physically forces users to use Windows but the fact that M$ refuses to release file formats to competitors leaves business users (the rich end of the market) to keep using MS so they can open their old MS Office docs without spending months coverting them.
I sell Linux for a living and their are lots of people who would swap to Linux if they could be sure they'd be able to open their old files.
Opening M$ file format specs would be the only way to level the playing field.
Go on judge, make my day!