Stop Microsoft
Operating Systems => macOS => Topic started by: Pantso on 15 April 2003, 17:06
-
I though that it would be more appropriate to start this topic in the Mac forum, since it mostly concerns us Mac owners.
Now, I've been seeing a lot of hatred lately towards Apple as well as OS X. Sometimes I see your points, which are mostly based on your weakness to find something wrong with OS X. So, you decided to bring the "ethics" issue to the surface and start this flame war on why Apple is using the open source community to make Jobs richer.
My point is that I'm really tired of some inane, cocky and elitist comments. Sorry, but I guess that it's time for me to leave, since these forums have really become a cesspool. So long fellow Mac owners. It was good, while it lasted.
EDIT: I changed my mind. I won't leave my fellow Macies and open-minded Linux users alone. ;)
EDIT2: Sorry if i offended anyone and i certainly hope we stop this meaningless debate.
[ April 15, 2003: Message edited by: Panos ]
[ April 15, 2003: Message edited by: Panos ]
[ April 15, 2003: Message edited by: Panos ]
-
Don't go! There are some people who have been overly critical of Apple (I hope you don't count my Safari thread as that) but you can't just give up and leave. As one of the last sane people here, you should help stop the spread of misinformation.
-
I don't want to go Macman. It is just that I feel that us Mac owners are not exactly welcome here anymore. When someone starts a thread in the Mac forum, like your Safari one, all I see is others hijacking the thread and posting rubbish such as how harmful Apple is to the open source community and such bullshit. Way off topic! Who asked for their opinion anyway? Start a fucking new topic! :mad:
That's all I'm saying. I won't go if you fellow Macies stay. I wouldn't leave you alone with the beasts anyway. :D I'll stay as long as we back each other up. Remember, we didn't start this. Unfortunately, others did. ;)
-
i don't have anything against mac users and i don't have any 'hate' towards apple. all anti mac or anti apple comments i make are based in fact and are responses to apple casting the first stone.
if you wish to make snooty comments about how everybody's just jealous of your mac and how everybody else started the fight in the first place then far be it from me to stop you wasting your time.
i am not the one posting inflammatory words in new topics on these forums.
-
Don't be ridiculous. How is (justifiable) suspicion toward Apple an assault on Mac users? And this 'elitist' thing is absurd too. Does berating Microsoft over the quality of their software or their contempt for freedom constitute 'elitism'?
Anyway, let's stop criticising the behaviour of MS + Apple in case we hurt their advocates' poor little feelings.
-
Sorry if you saw my earlier comments as an insult to macs Panos.
But if i see an ad that I take as insulting to my favorite OS I will get upset just as you will.
Referring to peoples comments as "inane cocky and elitist" wont calm people down either. Nor will telling them that their points are based on "weakness."
BTW I dont "hate" Apple - nor I think do many if any others on these forums - but again seeing an ad that insults Linux will upset me.
edit : please stay.
the following however are what i take to be elitist comments as well:
just because apple gave nix a great GUI you get jealous...
which are mostly based on your weakness...
the last "sane" people here...
i've finally found joy in a unix system and i found it when i purchased a macintosh...
and of course the various "stupid intel architecture" threads. The last one is especially bad and you mac users start flaming others for using intel architecture all the freaking time...
[ April 15, 2003: Message edited by: Faust ]
-
apple's attitude insults me and until they stop it i won't see any reason not to insult them if i want.
mac users who throw themselves in the line of fire have nobody to blame but themselves if they feel offended since my possible bone of contention is not with mac users, but possibly with apple (i say possibly because their motives are really unclear to me compared with those of microsoft, for all i know apple might just be very confused).
-
quote:
Originally posted by Panos:
My point is that I'm really tired of your inane, cocky and elitist comments.
Elitism is looking down on others because they're not part of, and have no way of joining, a particular group which is perceived to be better than others. It's not elitism if Apple can easily join the free software fraternity simply by ceasing to produce proprietary software. A better example of elitism could be, oh I don't know, a company producing an operating system and allowing only its employees to see the holy source code, and allowing only those who have the money to pay them for a licence to use it.
Why do you think Microsoft should be criticised but Apple should be able to get away with what they're doing without anyone raising objections? Do you think we object to Microsoft purely because of the quality of their software?
-
What seems to be the case is in the following statements (please inform us which one you take contention with.):
1: Apple uses Free Software to design a better browser and improve their OS by using khtml and a BSD kernel.
2: Apple then tries to compete directly against Free Software, the majority of which is *NIX based as exemplified in the statement "sends other unix boxes to /dev/null" and others.
3: By doing 2 Apple has hurt the Operating Systems it was helped by.
4: Apple should be trying to attack Microsoft instead of casting aspersions on Free OS's
5: Apple has fulfilled a bare minimum of their requirements under the Freedom license.
6: In doing 5 Apple has "weasled out of" giving effective support in their alliance with Free Software - for example by not Freeing Safari itself and by just Freeing the HTML "rendering" component
Which of the 6 is in the opinion of the Mac users incorrect? Please give reasons why, and notice that I have been polite so please no flaming me.
-
hear hear! i agree 100% with that.
-
As do I... well obviously I posted it. As before please post your rebuttals against those 6 points Macman / Panos - if you dont then I'll have to assume that they're good points and I'm pretty sure at least 1 of them must piss you off.
Surely everyone can see that the enemy is MS and that infighting is pointless? Then why does Apple use Free Software to gain an advantage then fulfill the bare minimum "requirements" in return?
If i walk past a car crash all I'm "required" to do is report it - but surely its unethical to not help the victims by just fulfilling my "bare requirements?"
Other than the "bare requirements" what _has_ apple done for the Free Software community?
EDIT : again mac users, please dont think that I "hate" you or your OS, as I dont. Also please dont take my terseness as rudeness - my posts are blunt and to the point because I have an essay due thursday not because i want to be "rude" in any way.
[ April 15, 2003: Message edited by: Faust ]
-
quote:
Originally posted by Faust:
What seems to be the case is in the following statements (please inform us which one you take contention with.):
1: Apple uses Free Software to design a better browser and improve their OS by using khtml and a BSD kernel.
2: Apple then tries to compete directly against Free Software, the majority of which is *NIX based as exemplified in the statement "sends other unix boxes to /dev/null" and others.
3: By doing 2 Apple has hurt the Operating Systems it was helped by.
4: Apple should be trying to attack Microsoft instead of casting aspersions on Free OS's
5: Apple has fulfilled a bare minimum of their requirements under the Freedom license.
6: In doing 5 Apple has "weasled out of" giving effective support in their alliance with Free Software - for example by not Freeing Safari itself and by just Freeing the HTML "rendering" component
Which of the 6 is in the opinion of the Mac users incorrect? Please give reasons why, and notice that I have been polite so please no flaming me.
Before answering, let me just say that I do not in any way support proprietary software. I wish everything was GPL'ed but above all I'm trying to be realistic. Recently, I made a fairly large donation to the FSF and today received a thank you letter. Inside the author of the letter (Bradley M. Kuhn) speaking on behalf of the FSF, states among others the following and I quote:
quote:
"We also continue our work in the trenches as we defend the rights of users and developers of GPL'ed software. While our enforcement efforts once were done informally only a few times a year, the popularity of Free Software has unfortunately led to more GPL violations. In 2002, through the formal GPL Compliance Lab we launched in late 2001, we have pursued approximately fifty violations of the GPL on FSF copyrighted code. In addition, we are arduously drafting version 3 of the GPL (GPLv3). We hope to address the threats to software freedom that we see on the horizon today, just as GPLv2 saw ahead to the threads of this past decade. This new work, however, requires careful and copious legal and technological expertise.
I urge anyone in this forums, to present me a case were Apple has violated the GPL or LGPL licenses. If and when that happens, I'll be the first one to turn against Apple.
Now, to Faust's points:
1. The first part is true and Apple have come up with Safari as you know. The improved and enhanced code as you also know will be part of future KDE and subsequently Konqueror releases. Does that benefit you and me? Well, I think it does. The second part is also true since Darwin is BSD-based and I also agree to the fact that it too, should be GPL'ed and not released under the restrictive license that it is released now.
2. I disagree there. Apple is a corporation, meaning that they're trying to sell. I don't see anything wrong there. The same thing could be done amongst Linux vendors who have in the past and are still competed and competing against each other.
3. I also disagree. Thanks to the hard work invested by Apple's software engineers into Darwin, as well as the close cooperation between the latter and BSD developers has brought positive results as well as improvements on both and will continue to do so.
4. Oh, it is and Safari is already a big step towards that direction. The rumoured arrival of iWorks and the arrival of Keynote, will have a great impact on M$'s profits.
5. Again I urge you to present me a case of violation of the GPL, LGPL and other FSF licenses.
6. The only layer in Safari that isn't free is the coordination layer between Safari and OS X. Can you imagine what would happen if Apple released that or Aqua's code or Quartz's? Do you remember what happened in the case of Xerox's GUI?
That's all I had to say. I don't have anything against people who make valid remarks and points. I do hate however, those who resort to flaming and insults. I will stay, as long as these forums do not turn into Apple-bashing forums instead of M$-bashing ones. ;)
-
The Webmaster of this page must be a prophet or something. Take a look at what's burried inside the main page's HTML code:
:confused: :confused: :eek: :eek:
No offense of course to more logical and open-minded people like Calum for example and many others who know who they are. Needless to say that I agree. ;)
[ April 15, 2003: Message edited by: Panos ]
-
1: Apple uses Free Software to design a better browser and improve their OS by using khtml and a BSD kernel.
True. What's wrong with this? They didn't exactly change BSD very muvh, but rather built a proprietary GUI layer on top of it.
2: Apple then tries to compete directly against Free Software, the majority of which is *NIX based as exemplified in the statement "sends other unix boxes to /dev/null" and others.
Oh, and RedHat dosn't compeat directly with the other linux distros? As a matter of fact I think I remember some andti BSD stuff on their page a while back.
There is nothing wrong with trying to build a better mouse trap. IBM makes UNIX boxes, they aren't necesserly being hurt bu the competition, are they?
There is nothing wrong with competition. That's why Apple is good, and M$ sux.
3: By doing 2 Apple has hurt the Operating Systems it was helped by.
On the contrary, it has popularized them and brought them to the forefront. Before OS X, Linux, and *NIX were a mystery to common users. Apple made it Chic. and most of all called it the "next step"
Dozens of Sourceforge projects sprung up makeing OpenSource software for OSX, on OSX. But with the goal of portability to other *NIX's. The *NIX community gained a whole bunch of chilldren from the Mac users.
4: Apple should be trying to attack Microsoft instead of casting aspersions on Free OS's
Keynotes, and Safari are both steps away from their M$ dependancy. And it's not like i have seen M$ do anything worthwhile on the Mac lately ('ccept the VPC fiasco).
And apple has not case any aspersions. They have praised openSopurce software for it's merits. As a matter of fact a large part of their OS is Free! And there is a whole comunity of people who develop and benifit from it!
Just go to the OpenDarwin websites... there are people who actually like it, and run the stuff exclusively.
5: Apple has fulfilled a bare minimum of their requirements under the Freedom license.
There is no such thing as "bare mininimum" when it comes to legality. They fullfiled the requirement.
If you feel this way, maybe you should take your complaint to the GPL people and demand that they redraft their licence.
6: In doing 5 Apple has "weasled out of" giving effective support in their alliance with Free Software - for example by not Freeing Safari itself and by just Freeing the HTML "rendering" component
This is silly. They work with the KHTML community to make safary. The head of the project, was the head of the Camino project over at Mozilla.org.
The KHTML get all of the stuff apple improves on. Apple gets to keep the NON-HTML stuff it makes.
Big deal, the licence says this, and all the people who adopted it have to live with the results. If you don't agree take it to court or revise it.
Which of the 6 is in the opinion of the Mac users incorrect?
None are incorect perse, but you take a negative stance on what could also be construed as a posative thing.
There is proprietary software for Linux, why can't apple make proprietary software for Darwin? I.e. the Aqua layer etc.
If Apple didn't keep trying to turn a proffit, there would be no great OS at all. And they would probably be struggling like Mandrake.
Also, apple contributed some 30years of R&D to the world, so you can hardly say they never gave anything back to OSS. They gave you the idea of a GUI! And don't bring up "X11 was started in 1983!" because X11 had no clue what it was up to rather than a novel way to display terminal shells untill Apple schooled the world as to hou a GUI should work.
It's only natural that they should do it bigger and better agian. And I honestly thing linux/*NIX users are a bit jeulous, and salivate over the Aqua source, because KDE/Gnome do not work nearly as well, and Mac users only need the terminal when they WANT to use it. Not when the HAVE to.
-
Thankyou for posting a clarification of the issue and of your views.
1: We fully agree with one another. The improvements will be of benefit and Darwin should be "more free" than it is now.
2: Here I disagree, yes they're a corporation and they're trying to sell. But attacking nix systems this way seems to be like shooting the little fish instead of shooting the BIG fish. Yes also I do as well disagree with any Linux vendor that attacks another Linux vendor. But *competition* is fine - healthy competition improves each side. This isnt however showing Apple as good, it is showing the competitiors as bad which I disagree with. it should be "apple is better" not "other nixs are crap" If any Linux distribution calls another distribution crap then they can get fucked. If they however say "we believe we are a good alternative" then I'm fine. The statement is not just "trying to sell" it is "trying to kill the competition" and with the low market share Linux has on the desktop this is not only quite frankly not healthy for Linux but it will help *less* than attacking MS. As the Mandrake CEO said (re a questionable Red Hat move I believe) "why go after the small fish? MS is the person to beat."
There is *nothing* in that ad that seriously shows how Apple is better than MS - it only shows its "advantages" over other nix OS's
3: Again I disagree. By saying such things as "sends other Unix boxes to /dev/null" Apple is making an apeal to nix users - ie linux. Windows users dont know what /dev/null is so the ad is a direct attempt to grab some of the Free nixs market share. Why publish it in Linux Format if you dont want to grab some of Linuxs market away?
4: OK, OS X is obviously going to make a dent in MS (if stupid windoids can lose their prejudices...) but see my response to 2.
5: Im not saying it *hasnt* fulfilled Im saying it has fulfilled a *bare minimum.* eg; if company policy is that I give $2 to the starving in Tanzania once a year, than if I do so I will have fulfilled my bare minimum requirements. But it is _still_ stingy. With apples lawyer army there could be no possibility of "slipping off the tightrope into illegality"
6: I dont see how MS could "steal" Apples new GUI as in the Xerox example if it was under the GPL making such theft illegal but well assume thats irrelevant for now... maybe Apple is understandably cautious after the Xerox "incident." That said your response to point 6 is good and i'll accept it. (http://smile.gif)
Thankyou again for responding... It is nice to have a rational response instead of mindless flames, and I dont feel Apple needs "bashing" perhaps just a reminder that Linux does not need to be attacked for Apple to suceed. It *is* undeniably a smooth, refined, intuitive, and pretty OS i must admit, but I still prefer Linux and I dont want to see my lovely OS being "cast aside" as "irrelevant" or any such.
Again please stay as you do provide these forums with good input, and good input produces good output (in both shells and biology...)
-
quote:
Originally posted by Panos:
The Webmaster of this page must be a prophet or something. Take a look at what's burried inside the main page's HTML code:
:confused: :confused: :eek: :eek:
No offense of course to more logical and open-minded people like Calum for example and many others who know who they are. Needless to say that I agree. ;)
[ April 15, 2003: Message edited by: Panos ][/b]
That suggests the webmaster doesn't understand why the "irrational elements of the Linux community" dislike Microsoft, and it indicates that the reasons he dislikes them and favours Apple are primarily practical; for example because OSX is better software than Windows. That's undoubtedly true, but if Windows were free software I would without hesitation support it over OSX.
For him to denigrate people who demand freedom and label them "rabid" is a shame really.
-
quote:
That suggests the webmaster doesn't understand why the "irrational elements of the Linux community" dislike Microsoft, and it indicates that the reasons he dislikes them and favours Apple are primarily practical; for example because OSX is better software than Windows. That's undoubtedly true, but if Windows were free software I would without hesitation support it over OSX.
For him to denigrate people who demand freedom and label them "rabid" is a shame really.
I would like to see you respond point to point like Faust did on my previous post as well as psyjax's. Let me remind you that I run a whole site (http://promote-opensource.org) about free and open source software and that I also donate to the FSF. Now, go on read my other post as well and respond.
[ April 15, 2003: Message edited by: Panos ]
-
i agree totally with the webmaster's comments all except for the inference that linux users dislike macs.
i think that just shows an example of the tendency of macintosh users (and apple computer) to create a rivalry where there is none. perhaps mac users have always felt a rivalry with microsoft or intel, and now, because they know those companies have lost their dynamism and are not as much fun to be rivals to, they turn on linux.
who knows why? but there is nobody on this world who will convince me that this pathetic mac vs linux thing was not started by apple computer and perpetuated by macintosh users (some, not all).
no offence intended, i had a lot more to say but panos, psyjax and faust largely covered it all already.
-
quote:
Originally posted by Calum: crusader for peace & freedom:
i agree totally with the webmaster's comments all except for the inference that linux users dislike macs.
i think that just shows an example of the tendency of macintosh users (and apple computer) to create a rivalry where there is none. perhaps mac users have always felt a rivalry with microsoft or intel, and now, because they know those companies have lost their dynamism and are not as much fun to be rivals to, they turn on linux.
who knows why? but there is nobody on this world who will convince me that this pathetic mac vs linux thing was not started by apple computer and perpetuated by macintosh users (some, not all).
no offence intended, i had a lot more to say but panos, psyjax and faust largely covered it all already.
I really don't feel any hatred towards Linux users, as I'm one of them myself and have been for six years. I can recognize the benefits of Linux as well as the benefits of OS X. Sorry if I offended anyone. I'll stay in the forums of course as long as we stay focused on battling M$.
-
[contrite]Psyjax valid points, most covered already in my reply to panos[/contrite]
actually whats *not* covered is your response to 5 and following from that 6 which i think are good (sorry Panos but better than yours... :-P ) arguments. some form of "mac emulator" made by apple would be a nice gesture of aide though. ;)
re : kde/gnome suck bit. yes they do. this is why i use blackbox / enlightenment which I personally prefer to the Mac GUI. (not an attack - each to their own yeah?) the only thing i miss is a centralised "system control" part and that can be compensated for with webmin / linuxconf.
if it can be added to a menu then why do i "need" to use a terminal? Linux is not stuck back in the pre-gui days so please dont spread FUD.
to reiterate i am not "jealous" of the Mac GUI. I wish it all the respect it deserves of course, but I still like my own GUI's
at the end of the day its an ideological issue i guess which brings it close to religion which makes arguments on the topic "messy." my apologies to anyone i've offended - i believe Mac OSX is good, but I also believe it would be made "better" and would be more "ideal" if it was fully GPL. Maybe my young age makes me a hopeless idealist and your old age makes you all cynical and well... "realistic."
you obviously belive differently to me but the difference is slight and this is supposed to be an MS bashing forum so truce?
EDIT : actually re the mac GUI - most of it I'm not overly fond of but I do like the fact that it runs in openGL.
[ April 15, 2003: Message edited by: Faust ]
-
quote:
Originally posted by Faust:
[contrite]Psyjax valid points, most covered already in my reply to panos[/contrite]
actually whats *not* covered is your response to 5 and following from that 6 which i think are good (sorry Panos but better than yours... :-P ) arguments. some form of "mac emulator" made by apple would be a nice gesture of aide though. ;)
re : kde/gnome suck bit. yes they do. this is why i use blackbox / enlightenment which I personally prefer to the Mac GUI. (not an attack - each to their own yeah?) the only thing i miss is a centralised "system control" part and that can be compensated for with webmin / linuxconf.
if it can be added to a menu then why do i "need" to use a terminal? Linux is not stuck back in the pre-gui days so please dont spread FUD.
to reiterate i am not "jealous" of the Mac GUI. I wish it all the respect it deserves of course, but I still like my own GUI's
at the end of the day its an ideological issue i guess which brings it close to religion which makes arguments on the topic "messy." my apologies to anyone i've offended - i believe Mac OSX is good, but I also believe it would be made "better" and would be more "ideal" if it was fully GPL. Maybe my young age makes me a hopeless idealist and your old age makes you all cynical and well... "realistic."
you obviously belive differently to me but the difference is slight and this is supposed to be an MS bashing forum so truce?
Truce indeed. :D There are certainly bigger (and scarier) issues the world is facing nowadays, that such debates become almost funny. Sorry about the language thing Faust. I certainly have more things to say but English is not my first language so.. ;)
-
quote:
Originally posted by Panos:
I would like to see you respond point to point like Faust did on my previous post as well as psyjax's. Let me remind you that I run a whole site (http://promote-opensource.org) about free and open source software and that I also donate to the FSF. Now, go on read my other post as well and respond.
[ April 15, 2003: Message edited by: Panos ]
quote:
Before answering, let me just say that I do not in any way support proprietary software. I wish everything was GPL'ed but above all I'm trying to be realistic.
But later on you say:
quote:
Can you imagine what would happen if Apple released that or Aqua's code or Quartz's?
Are you saying here that you specifically *do* support their not making it free software?
I'm not saying that you can't be pleased to see Apple making forays into free software projects (or *useful* open source projects), if that's what they're doing. Though that seems unlikely. Safari is free because they needed to use software from the FS community to build it, not because they want to make a contribution to our community. And as we've seen, although Darwin is open source, it's not really any use to anyone because it's to restrictively licenced and it isn't the whole OS that's open anyway. If, as you seem to think, this is just the first step in 'opening up' or freeing more or all of their software then great, but I doubt it is.
And even if you are happy with Apple's work on open source projects, it doesn't mean you can't criticise them for not going far enough, or at least not be fully satisfied with how far they have gone. Don't forget that MS now has some GPL'd software, so should we be commending them for that?
quote:
2. I disagree there. Apple is a corporation, meaning that they're trying to sell. I don't see anything wrong there. The same thing could be done amongst Linux vendors who have in the past and are still competed and competing against each other.
3. I also disagree. Thanks to the hard work invested by Apple's software engineers into Darwin, as well as the close cooperation between the latter and BSD developers has brought positive results as well as improvements on both and will continue to do so.
4. Oh, it is and Safari is already a big step towards that direction. The rumoured arrival of iWorks and the arrival of Keynote, will have a great impact on M$'s profits.
I don't agree with Faust's points there and I don't have any problem with them competing fairly either.
quote:
5. Again I urge you to present me a case of violation of the GPL, LGPL and other FSF licenses.
He wasn't suggesting that they have actually violated FSF licences (and I wouldn't suggest that either), merely that they've done nothing more than they're bound to by law.
Psyjax:
quote:
It's only natural that they should do it bigger and better agian. And I honestly thing linux/*NIX users are a bit jeulous, and salivate over the Aqua source, because KDE/Gnome do not work nearly as well, and Mac users only need the terminal when they WANT to use it. Not when the HAVE to.
To suggest we're jealous is a bit of a childish argument. I've never touched OSX so have absolutely no idea how good Aqua is, though by all accounts it's excellent, and I have no reason to think otherwise. I also couldn't care less (personally I prefer the terminal and only reach for the mouse when I want to, not when I have to.) What I resent is the arrogance of Apple thinking "Aqua is so good, it doesn't need to be free software. People will happily trade their freedom for a piece of software that works well."
-
quote:
Originally posted by flap:
To suggest we're jealous is a bit of a childish argument. I've never touched OSX so have absolutely no idea how good Aqua is, though by all accounts it's excellent, and I have no reason to think otherwise. I also couldn't care less (personally I prefer the terminal and only reach for the mouse when I want to, not when I have to.) What I resent is the arrogance of Apple thinking "Aqua is so good, it doesn't need to be free software. People will happily trade their freedom for a piece of software that works well."
Your right, I apologize about my first remark.
But I don't think buying proprietary software trades in your freedom. Not when your buying it from a good company.
I mean, seriously folks? Whats wrong with a GOOD product. That's the real complaint.
What if M$ actually made a great OS, that WAS better or at least as good as all the other alternatives? What if they were a nice player, and didnt piss all over competition in a bid to get ahead?
There woulden't be any complaints from me, Id prolly be happily using windows.
I don't mind giving Apple my money because personaly I think they DESERVE it. They made an excellent product, that pleases me greatly and outshines everything else I have used including the free alternatives.
I see no problem with this, and I am not trading in my freedom. Because I don't have to buy it. I also don't have to abide by any draconian EULA like M$.
-
quote:
I don't think buying proprietary software trades in your freedom.
Yes it does. You've just paid for the privilege of being legally forced to refuse to help someone who asks you to give them a copy of that software. And you're forced to run code that you have no way of finding out what it does, or changing it.
quote:
I don't mind giving Apple my money because personaly I think they DESERVE it.
If you're referring to the question of making their software "free", then that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whether or not you pay them for it. Free as in freedom etc...
-
quote:
Originally posted by flap:
If you're referring to the question of making their software "free", then that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whether or not you pay them for it. Free as in freedom etc...
But you see thats all well and good, but source code IS the software.
It's not like a cake company who gives you a list of ingredients, cuz you wanna know whats in the cake, or how to go about makeing one. That's why you pay someone else for the cake.
Code is not just a list of ingredients. It's the actual product. Why shouldent you be allowd to sell it?
If I write a book, can't I make money off it? OR should everyone be able to photocopy it and proliferate it without me seeing a penny?
I mean, altruism is all well and good, but comeon, it only goes so far.
-
Sorry, you seem to have misunderstood what I was saying. The free in free software refers to freedom, not price, so there is no reason at all why Apple shouldn't sell their software and the source that goes with it.
If you write a book or a piece of software, you should be able to sell it for as much or as little as you want, but you shouldn't be able to stop the people who get hold of it copying it themselves.
-
Hey flap, will you ever get a life? Oops, I forgot. You're English.
-
Why are you racially abusing me for supporting free software? You run a site called The Free Software Support Group for christ's sake.
[ April 15, 2003: Message edited by: flap ]
-
quote:
Originally posted by flap:
Oh you lunatic. Why are you racially abusing me for supporting free software? You run a site called The Free Software Support Group for christ's sake.
This was not a racial abuse! Sheesh! Will you relax for a second? I was just joking there! Where is your bloody sense of humour? All I was trying to say is that it's time to quit this thing and put an end. Looks though that you people don't have any intention to do so. I wanted to post this just to clarify that my post above was not by any chance abusive!
Peace,
Panos. ;)
EDIT: Let's be serious now. You really are an intelligent person flap. Thanks also for noticing the site. If you read through the first lines on the main page, you'd notice that we're looking for articles from people like you. So, instead of "wasting your breath" in these forums, why not write an article for example on how you think that Apple harms the Free Software community? If you would be willing to write one I'd really be honoured. If not, well life goes on. Post here or PM me in either case. Thanks. ;)
[ April 15, 2003: Message edited by: Panos ]
-
Here we are, with our hands at each other
-
quote:
And I honestly thing linux/*NIX users are a bit jeulous, and salivate over the Aqua source, because KDE/Gnome do not work nearly as well, and Mac users only need the terminal when they WANT to use it. Not when the HAVE to.
I can assure you that I am not the least bit "jeulous". Furthermore, with Mandrake 9.0, the only time I need to use an x-term is when I want to. Between the Konqueror file manager, and the Mandrake Control Center, there is not thing one that I can do from the command line that I can't do from the desktop. There are plenty of other distros where this is also true: Red Hat, Lycoris, ELX.
This, too, is just more Redmond FUD. Please don't help His Gatesness propagate it.
_____________________________________
Live Free or Die: Linux
(http://www.otakupc.com/etsig/dolphin.gif)
"There: now you'll never have to look at those dirty Windows anymore"
--Daffy Duck :D
-
i do not know why i bother...
actually nevermind.
-
quote:
Originally posted by cahult:
Here we are, with our hands at each other
-
this topic really is pathetic. still, it brings up many good points. without discussion, how would we ever reach any conclusions or decisions?
-
But we don't reach any conclusions or decisions!
-
true, maybe we should stop discussing things then.
-
quote:
Originally posted by Calum: crusader for peace & freedom:
true, maybe we should stop discussing things then.
yes. let us be more like X11.
-
Yes, I regret to have started this topic since it's really pathetic. :( I believe however, that we've seen valid points from some of the members here and this discussion was up to a certain point quite fruitful. I won't bother with such discussions any more, at least in the MES forums, which is a total waste of time, sorry. ;)
-
oh okay. no more fruitful discussion on these forums then! ;)
-
quote:
Originally posted by Calum: crusader for peace & freedom:
oh okay. no more fruitful discussion on these forums then! ;)
What I meant was that I'd be better off writing useful articles by collecting such points for the promote-opensource.org page, rather than arguing in these forums. I hope you know what I mean, because I can't find a better way to express what I think (language limitations). :rolleyes: :D
-
yeah, i'm just being obstreperous!
but may i say to you that if you participate in these discussions, maybe the replies will contain more good information for said articles.
what kind of articles are we talking about btw? i can probably do a general one or two if you want.
-
quote:
Originally posted by Calum: crusader for peace & freedom:
yeah, i'm just being obstreperous!
but may i say to you that if you participate in these discussions, maybe the replies will contain more good information for said articles.
what kind of articles are we talking about btw? i can probably do a general one or two if you want.
Damn you Calum. You made me open up my dictionary after a long time to look up the word obstreperous. :D
As for the articles, I was thinking of something that would sum up all of these points made in this thread, as to if and how does Apple as a corporate entity benefit the open source - free software community. :rolleyes:
I also don't mind if the article is negative to Apple. I just don't think I can write it just yet, at least not in English. (http://smile.gif)
-
obsteperous is ENGLISH??? i thought he was talking in greek to make it easier for you... :eek:
i may be able to rip up a lukewarm aritcle on the holdiays if i remember... no promises though i just got assigned a phil essay to do as holiday work...
-
well panos, how about if i write the article summing up the contents of this page? then i'll submit it to you as usual and also to ecsyle, if you don't mind, i don't want to steal it away from you. also i doubt it will be very anti-apple when all things are considered.
well done on looking up obstreperous, i didn't think i had spelt it correctly!
interestingly, panos, you often mention that you are not too good at english but your english appears to be at least as good as, and often is noticable better than, many people whose first language it is on these boards!
-
quote:
Originally posted by Calum: crusader for peace & freedom:
well panos, how about if i write the article summing up the contents of this page? then i'll submit it to you as usual and also to ecsyle, if you don't mind, i don't want to steal it away from you. also i doubt it will be very anti-apple when all things are considered.
well done on looking up obstreperous, i didn't think i had spelt it correctly!
interestingly, panos, you often mention that you are not too good at english but your english appears to be at least as good as, and often is noticable better than, many people whose first language it is on these boards!
Thanks for the compliment Calum. (http://redface.gif) I guess I lack some self-esteem, that's why I'm so modest. As for the article, I'd be honoured if you wrote it and of course submit it anywhere you like. You could also submit it at Newsforge or Slashdot. It would be really interesting. (http://smile.gif)
-
Goodness CAN come of this badness!!
-
quote:
Originally posted by Macman: HAS 1000 POSTS:
Goodness CAN come of this badness!!
I believe so myself. (http://smile.gif)