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So let me get this straight. 15 insepctors

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Calum:
oops!

yes i was referring to Tibet! sorry about that!

as for terror vs terror, i have to say that only void main and tux really make any sense, out of all the people who have been participating in the stock 'US vs Islam' debate.

What many of you seem to dismiss is the fact that it is NOT the US vs Islam. it is the US vs Osama Bin Laden and his cohorts/disciples/whatever. Even his civilian supporters are mostly just caught up in the zeitgeist i suspect. Islam is not any worse than christianity, but humans tend to fear and loath the unknown.

The only way is to lead by example, and not react blindly with flying fists. that is immature to the extreme.

also, it strikes me as incredibly sad if US citizens can honestly say that the world trade centre is an equivelant religious symbol to Mohammed's house in Mecca. One is a religious symbol to millions, and the other was a fucking office block for gods' sake! it was the bloody stock market! how can you say that was a symbol to you?  

I can COMPLETELY understand the enormous emotions, trauma and loss involved in the tragic loss of life that was involved, but i can in no way see that you can seriously say that your symbols were attacked. Do you really feel that way about a big office block? this is what i meant before about saluting to the flag. dangerous.

you know (at least) one of my work colleagues is a muslim. he's from london and has lived here all his life (i know another one from glasgow too) and you know what? he's a great guy. good sense of humour, nomalice in him. why am i mentioning this? because some of you seem very prejudiced against muslims. most of them are ordinary people like you or me. i am surprised that no muslims have read this thread by now and posted a response. You must think about reality before you go applying blind (and flawed) sweeping logic to situations that are almost infinitely intricate.

one thing that a friend of mine said to me once, that i think is relevant here:

 
quote:You should never talk in absolutes!
--- End quote ---

voidmain:
I don't know of anyone in the US that saw the WTC as a religious symbol. It certainly was an American symbol though. And I would prefer to think that it is "world against Osama" and not just "US against Osama".

And let me tell you, I get chocked up and tears well up in my eyes every time I hear our national anthem or the popular song "Proud to be an American", and when at sporting events it pisses me off when I see young people not standing during the anthem. You can call me screwed up and dangerous all you want but that's the sort of pride I have in my country. I don't see anything wrong with that and I think it's great when people from other countries have the same pride in their country.

flap:
What if the people at your games stood up and saluted white power songs (assuming you're caucasian)? Would you get teary-eyed over that? Are you proud of your race as well as your country?

Calum:
hmm, i wouldn't imagine void main is a racist. are you void main? i don't think so.

I also have pride in my country, although unlike US citizens i am also ashamed of my country (I might add that if any US citizens also feel ashamed of their country then it will be for different reasons) for being so piss weak as to still be a part of the 'british empire' when most other empire nations have got their independence by now.

I would stand for the Scottish national anthem (the real one) and i would certainly never stand for, or sing, the 'national anthem' that often gets foisted upon me as a 'british subject'. I take great personal offence at the  english national anthem. See line 27 to find the reason why.

I think that if people disagree with a national anthem then they should not show any sign of respect for it. People should be allowed to have a choice, whether they agree with me or not, whether they agree with the consensus or not.

As a matter of fact, it is commonly believed that Flower of Scotland should be (or is) Scotland's national anthem. This song is racist, almost to the point that the english one is, and i think it is backward and stupid to glorify the act of fighting an army that ultimately defeated us and who still rule over us. I also think that it is pathetic to have a national anthem that defines our nation more in terms of our enemies than ourselves. Where is the pride in our own country? why the hypocrisy?

Again i say. I will not salute if i have no respect. I will not stand if i have no respect. I will not show disrespect either unless it is warranted however. I do not think people should ever be forced to show respect for something they have no respect for. It will only breed contempt, and that contempt will only breed the sort of prejudice and racism that we often see when discussions about 'the war on terror' crop up.

voidmain:

quote:Originally posted by flap:
What if the people at your games stood up and saluted white power songs (assuming you're caucasian)? Would you get teary-eyed over that? Are you proud of your race as well as your country?
--- End quote ---


This really isn't worthy of a response but here goes... I happen to be what you call "white", but I don't really see the color of skin as being a "race" as some/most people do. "White" people can be decendents of many different cultures. Most of the people higher up on my family tree originated in Europe, Germany primarily. And it was only around 100 years ago that they came to America on a boat. They must have had reasons for coming to America. Whatever they were doesn't really matter to me.

I have experienced many different places and I know how good I have it. I also happen to have family members who are *not* white. They are just as patriotic as I am. I also don't see anything wrong with being proud of your race, I am proud to be a German decendant. I don't hate other races or hate other people for the color of their skin. I think it is great that African Americans are proud to be so. Does that make me a racist? I don't think so. I think people who are in the KKK or other racist organizations are friggin idiots, but anyone can see that just listening to them. You can see it on Springer any day of the week. You may see this as shallow or racist but I don't really care what you think.

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: void main ]

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