Author Topic: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?  (Read 10058 times)

piratePenguin

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #105 on: 7 May 2005, 19:39 »
I've had Windows XP on this machine and it was aload of shite. Slackware runs like a dream on it, as has Mandrake (now Mandrivia), SuSE (which I hate), and a few other distros. I haven't used Fedora, but from what I hear, it's deadly.

You shouldn't have to recompile the kernel in Fedora (I would assume) to make it run fast. Your setup could have had numerous services loaded that _you_ mightn't need. They're not hard to stop. Same in Windows, but I (used to) always disable stuff I don't use in it.

I would doubt that Fedora is more bloated than Windows, XP especially.

BTW, did you try using the manufacturer (graphics card, mainly) drivers in Fedora? I know they make a huge difference in Windows (Windows was always barely usable before I installed graphics card drivers etc.), maybe not so much in GNU/Linux (I don't even use nvidias drivers, 'cause they're not free software), but if you don't mind giving up the freedom that you obviously don't value-


EDIT: Fedora isn't exactly a distro for not-so-modern computers. Why are we even having this conversation?
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a poem by my computer, Macintosh Vigilante
Macintosh amends a damned around the requested typewriter. Macintosh urges a scarce design. Macintosh postulates an autobiography. Macintosh tolls the solo variant. Why does a winter audience delay macintosh? The maker tosses macintosh. Beneath female suffers a double scum. How will a rat cube the heavier cricket? Macintosh calls a method. Can macintosh nest opposite the headache? Macintosh ties the wrong fairy. When can macintosh stem the land gang? Female aborts underneath macintosh. Inside macintosh waffles female. Next to macintosh worries a well.

Aloone_Jonez

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #106 on: 7 May 2005, 21:24 »
Quote from: piratePenguin
I've had Windows XP on this machine and it was aload of shite. Slackware runs like a dream on it, as has Mandrake (now Mandrivia), SuSE (which I hate), and a few other distros. I haven't used Fedora, but from what I hear, it's deadly.

You shouldn't have to recompile the kernel in Fedora (I would assume) to make it run fast. Your setup could have had numerous services loaded that _you_ mightn't need. They're not hard to stop. Same in Windows, but I (used to) always disable stuff I don't use in it.


Your personal experiance vs mine - it's not worth argueing about don't you think?


Quote from: piratePenguin
I would doubt that Fedora is more bloated than Windows, XP especially.


Well Fedora's default configuretion requireing more resources than Windows XP would suggest this.

Quote from: piratePenguin
BTW, did you try using the manufacturer (graphics card, mainly) drivers in Fedora? I know they make a huge difference in Windows (Windows was always barely usable before I installed graphics card drivers etc.), maybe not so much in GNU/Linux (I don't even use nvidias drivers, 'cause they're not free software), but if you don't mind giving up the freedom that you obviously don't value-


I did have a graphics card driver problem that caused the graphics to be slow. I'm reffering to boot time and how long it takes to launch big programs like OpenOffice and even how long it takes to copy a damn flopy disk. Windows  XP beat Fedora hands down for all of these tasks, Vector Linux has been the fastest though.


Quote from: piratePenguin
EDIT: Fedora isn't exactly a distro for not-so-modern computers.


1800MHz, 256MB RAM isn't that old.

Quote from: piratePenguin
Why are we even having this conversation?


You tell me.

My point is that I've found if you want to get a fast stable operating system to run on your PC without fucking, a light Linux distrobution is the best way to go  personally I'd stear clear of Fedora, Mandrake, Linspire ect. in my opinion even Windows XP would be a better choice. But I accept your opinion is different lets agree to dissagree.
This is not a Windows help forum, however please do feel free to sign up and agree or disagree with our views on Microsoft.

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piratePenguin

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #107 on: 7 May 2005, 22:06 »
If Fedora is slow, bloated, and unstable, you can't make the assumption that all GNU/Linux distributions are slow, bloated, and unstable. There are hundreds of GNU/Linux distros out there. I haven't used any that are slow, bloated, and unstable. Then again I haven't used Fedora.

So why bother comparing Windows with Fedora? If Windows beats Fedora, does that mean Windows is better than GNU/Linux? It can't.
Just like if I compared my current system to a friends unstable Windows system, it's not fair to say that GNU/Linux is better than Windows.

I haven't ever used a "stable" Windows system. Even in school, we use Windows 2000 and it ocassionally goes into "slugish" mode (you know what I'm talking about!), taking ages to load up applications, clicking on "start" and nothing happens... Then, CRASH! Hold down the power button, and if that doesn't work pull the plug from the back.
That's why I formed the conclusion that Windows is rarely stable! Isn't that perfectly fair? I think it is.

You've used Fedora, one of the many GNU/Linux distros, and you found it unstable. Obviously it's fair for you to say Fedora is unstable, you CANNOT say GNU/Linux is unstable (for I would eat you alive).

You've also used Vector Linux, which you say is very stable (does it beat your Windows system?). Now, your more-educated conclusion can be "some GNU/Linux distros are stable, and some are unstable". And I'd agree with ya (wasn't that part of my part-of-the-conclusion above (when I asked who'd agree with the statement...)?).

I've already said some Windows systems are stable (which I do find hard to believe, but I have to believe it).
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a poem by my computer, Macintosh Vigilante
Macintosh amends a damned around the requested typewriter. Macintosh urges a scarce design. Macintosh postulates an autobiography. Macintosh tolls the solo variant. Why does a winter audience delay macintosh? The maker tosses macintosh. Beneath female suffers a double scum. How will a rat cube the heavier cricket? Macintosh calls a method. Can macintosh nest opposite the headache? Macintosh ties the wrong fairy. When can macintosh stem the land gang? Female aborts underneath macintosh. Inside macintosh waffles female. Next to macintosh worries a well.

Aloone_Jonez

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #108 on: 7 May 2005, 22:59 »
Quote from: piratePenguin
If Fedora is slow, bloated, and unstable, you can't make the assumption that all GNU/Linux distributions are slow, bloated, and unstable. There are hundreds of GNU/Linux distros out there. I haven't used any that are slow, bloated, and unstable. Then again I haven't used Fedora.


I didn't say all Linux distros are slow and bloated, Vector Linux isn't Knoppix isn't and neither is slackware, and I'm sure there're lots of good distros out there.

Quote from: piratePenguin
So why bother comparing Windows with Fedora? If Windows beats Fedora, does that mean Windows is better than GNU/Linux? It can't.
Just like if I compared my current system to a friends unstable Windows system, it's not fair to say that GNU/Linux is better than Windows.

I haven't ever used a "stable" Windows system. Even in school, we use Windows 2000 and it ocassionally goes into "slugish" mode (you know what I'm talking about!), taking ages to load up applications, clicking on "start" and nothing happens... Then, CRASH! Hold down the power button, and if that doesn't work pull the plug from the back.
That's why I formed the conclusion that Windows is rarely stable! Isn't that perfectly fair? I think it is.

Quote from: piratePenguin
You've used Fedora, one of the many GNU/Linux distros, and you found it unstable. Obviously it's fair for you to say Fedora is unstable, you CANNOT say GNU/Linux is unstable (for I would eat you alive).


I've never said that GNU/Linux is unstable, just because I slag off one Linux distrobution it doesn't mean I don't like Linux.

Quote from: piratePenguin
You've also used Vector Linux, which you say is very stable (does it beat your Windows system?). Now, your more-educated conclusion can be "some GNU/Linux distros are stable, and some are unstable". And I'd agree with ya (wasn't that part of my part-of-the-conclusion above (when I asked who'd agree with the statement...)?).


This was my arguement all a long, and I'm sure you could make Fedora run well if I can make Windows XP run well then I'm sure you could get Fedora to work well. I was reffering to the default configureations for both OS's

Quote from: piratePenguin
I've already said some Windows systems are stable (which I do find hard to believe, but I have to believe it).


If Windows was really that bad do you seriously think it would be still popular? If it went down every day and lost people's work costing companies millions of pounds a year people just wouldn't put up with it. Even Windows 95 was very unstable but with just a little work it could be made more stable.
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piratePenguin

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #109 on: 7 May 2005, 23:29 »
Quote from: aloone_jonez
Vector Linux uses up very little recources compared to the modern full bloat distros like Mandrake, Linspire and Fedora etc. Knoppix is also a good example of a light distro.
That comment could've passed by me only that you had to mention Mandrake (which is now called Mandriva btw).

Mandrake 10.0 was the first GNU/Linux distro I installed, and if it was any more bloat than Windows, I might not be here (on the microsuck forums that is). Explain, how in the hell is Mandriva, of all GNU/Linux distros "full bloat"?
Bear in mind that the first GNU/Linux distro I used was MandrakeMove (Mandrakes livecd). And that was on my old piece of shit (128mb ram, 233mhz cpu) PC that ran (and struggled with) Windows 98 (I remember I tried to install Windows XP on that system. Didn't even install (I think it was my CD-ROM drive, too slow). I consider myself damn lucky that it didn't install.).
Guess what? With the MandrakeMove CD in the drive, suddenly my system was MORE usable!
I got my brother to download Mandrake 10.0 (I'm on dialup), which ran too well on my piece of shit PC, and when I eventually got round to building a new one... Phew.
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a poem by my computer, Macintosh Vigilante
Macintosh amends a damned around the requested typewriter. Macintosh urges a scarce design. Macintosh postulates an autobiography. Macintosh tolls the solo variant. Why does a winter audience delay macintosh? The maker tosses macintosh. Beneath female suffers a double scum. How will a rat cube the heavier cricket? Macintosh calls a method. Can macintosh nest opposite the headache? Macintosh ties the wrong fairy. When can macintosh stem the land gang? Female aborts underneath macintosh. Inside macintosh waffles female. Next to macintosh worries a well.

Aloone_Jonez

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #110 on: 8 May 2005, 01:51 »
I haven't run Mandrake or Mandriva myself I was just going on a friend's opinion, sorry you're right on this one I was wrong to mention Mandrake as I haven't tested it myself.

Nothing to do with Mandrake, oh sorry Mandriva I know but this archived thread on linuxquestions.org makes very good reading.
This is not a Windows help forum, however please do feel free to sign up and agree or disagree with our views on Microsoft.

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piratePenguin

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #111 on: 8 May 2005, 02:09 »
Quote from: Aloone_Jonez
Nothing to do with Mandrake, oh sorry Mandriva I know but this archived thread on linuxquestions.org makes very good reading.
LMFAO! Some day I'm gonna buy an old power supply and plug a decent CD-ROM drive into my old computer. And tell someone in the house to install Windows XP on it (I wouldn't wanna give up my freedom now, would I? ;)). Should be fun.

I could also turn it into a usable infinitum Slackware system.
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a poem by my computer, Macintosh Vigilante
Macintosh amends a damned around the requested typewriter. Macintosh urges a scarce design. Macintosh postulates an autobiography. Macintosh tolls the solo variant. Why does a winter audience delay macintosh? The maker tosses macintosh. Beneath female suffers a double scum. How will a rat cube the heavier cricket? Macintosh calls a method. Can macintosh nest opposite the headache? Macintosh ties the wrong fairy. When can macintosh stem the land gang? Female aborts underneath macintosh. Inside macintosh waffles female. Next to macintosh worries a well.

Aloone_Jonez

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #112 on: 8 May 2005, 13:44 »
I plan to resurrect my old computer by trash picking a mother board and installing Vector Linux, or I'll see if I can install knoppix on the hard disk, which I might do anyway as I do have a spare 2.1GB hard drive lying around.
This is not a Windows help forum, however please do feel free to sign up and agree or disagree with our views on Microsoft.

Oh and FUCKMicrosoft! :fu:

ShawnD1

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #113 on: 8 May 2005, 15:43 »
I'm surprised a thread asking this question is this long. The reason is basically summed up with 1 statement: MS tries to woo developers.

MS vs Apple
In the 80's, MS and IBM were very focused on getting outside developers to support them whereas Apple was concerned about inside projects; Apple lost sight about what people cared about. Forget how the computer looks or feels, what can it do? Can it do spreadsheets? Can it do word processing? Can it do database? DOS/IBM computers could do that; Apple computers could not. Apple shrank so much that it's now mostly a niche market. In the 90's, MS has been involved in almost all projects imaginable. As a result, MS supports a lot of things well before Apple does. Examples: PCI, PCIe, AGP, IDE/ATA/UDMA, USB, PC100/PC133 RAM, DDR RAM, and now SLI. That's just the hardware end of things. On the software end, MS keeps very close ties with developers, and each version of Windows is very backwards compatible. Apple does the opposite - they change standards over and over, and all it does is annoy the hell out of software developers. Here's spl's take on Mac programming.

MS vs Linux
First off, Linux has a lot of problems. Linux has a lot of stupidly named things that make it imcompatible with Unix; things like different named var and bin folders as well as differently named binaries. Bash on Unix is "bash", on Linux it's "sh". Gmake on Unix is "gmake", on Linux it's "make". What the hell?
More of a problem is having a billion different types of Linux that aren't 100% compatible with each other. Sometimes you'll find an RPM that is for RedHat, but it doesn't work on your Mandrake install. Why not? Not all versions are the same.
An even worse problem with Linux is that it doesn't really have anybody guiding it to gain support from developers. How can Linux get support from developers? What is Linux? It's not 1 group or 1 company, it's many groups with many companies and each group is going a different way. It's hard to get support when Linux isn't exactly a unified group.
The absolute worst problem with Linux is the mentality of Linux users. Windows users use Windows because they want to get desktop work done, BSD users use BSD because they want to get server work done, Linux users use Linux because they hate Windows and they refuse to use BSD because "omg BSD is too closed source" (open to read, not as open to contribute to).
Although Linux is very popular, the qustion remains: What kind of company would actually want to support Linux when it's an ununified and somewhat incompatible clone of Unix with a user base that hates closed sourced (read:proprietary) software? It's just not worth it.

MS vs BSD
BSD is amazing for servers. It really has no place in the desktop market.

MS vs BeOS, YellowTab, etc
BeOS and YellowTab are great operating systems. The problem is that they lack an enthusiast market, and that leads to a lack of software. Linux and Mac OS may not have close ties with software developers, and the majority of the users are fanatical nutcases (not all users), but they still get support simply because they're popular (actually Linux is the popular one, it's just a strange twist that you can compile Linux stuff on a Mac). If YellowTab had support from software developers, there's no doubt in my mind that its popularity would just explode.

piratePenguin

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #114 on: 8 May 2005, 17:29 »
Quote
Linux users use Linux because they hate Windows
I use GNU/Linux 'cause I think it's better than Windows.
I suppose I'd regreat if I asked you about GNU/Hurd?
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a poem by my computer, Macintosh Vigilante
Macintosh amends a damned around the requested typewriter. Macintosh urges a scarce design. Macintosh postulates an autobiography. Macintosh tolls the solo variant. Why does a winter audience delay macintosh? The maker tosses macintosh. Beneath female suffers a double scum. How will a rat cube the heavier cricket? Macintosh calls a method. Can macintosh nest opposite the headache? Macintosh ties the wrong fairy. When can macintosh stem the land gang? Female aborts underneath macintosh. Inside macintosh waffles female. Next to macintosh worries a well.

WMD

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #115 on: 8 May 2005, 18:33 »
Woah, Shawn here has some issues.

Quote
Can it do spreadsheets? Can it do word processing? Can it do database? DOS/IBM computers could do that; Apple computers could not.

Wtf?  Microsoft Word and Excel started on the Macintosh platform.

Quote
In the 90's, MS has been involved in almost all projects imaginable. As a result, MS supports a lot of things well before Apple does.

If they did, then they had a good reason.  As I shall explain:

Quote
Examples: PCI

x86 moved off ISA at about the same time Apple moved off of NuBus, roughly.

Quote
PCIe,

Currently, PCIe has no benefit.  AGP 8x still has a lot of power left...why would they bother designing a new board if it wouldn't help?  And before you say other than video cards, Apple has had 64-bit PCI and PCI-X for a long time, which works well.

Quote
AGP,

When AGP 2x was out, Apple used a 64-bit, 66MHz PCI slot for video.  This had about the same speed.  When AGP 4x came out and changed that, Apple saw no reason to not change to it, and did.

Quote
IDE/ATA/UDMA,

Apple didn't switch to IDE for a long time because it sucked.  SCSI was much faster and less CPU-dependent than IDE/PIO.  In '97, PIO mode 4 IDE compared somewhat well to the current 10MBps SCSI bus Apple had been using, so they put it in the beige G3.  DMA came out soon after, and they put it in their very next machine.

Quote
USB,

Uh...USB hadn't gotten anywhere before Apple put it in the iMac as the primary expansion port.

Quote
PC100/PC133 RAM,

Apple's first PC100 machine came out in 1998.  This was comparable to the PC.

Quote
DDR RAM,

August 2002.  Again, no big difference.

Quote
and now SLI.

See the part about PCIe.

Quote
On the software end, MS keeps very close ties with developers, and each version of Windows is very backwards compatible.

Stuff still breaks on every release...and all that compatiblity leads to a lot of hacks put in place where they could be fixing the OS.

Quote
Apple does the opposite - they change standards over and over, and all it does is annoy the hell out of software developers.

They changed standards once - OS X.  Software made for System 6 (1987) work on OS 9 (1999).

Quote
Bash on Unix is "bash", on Linux it's "sh".

No, it's "bash".  "sh" is a symlink for scripts written for Unix's sh.

Quote
Gmake on Unix is "gmake", on Linux it's "make". What the hell?

"make" on Linux is Automake, not Gmake.

Quote
More of a problem is having a billion different types of Linux that aren't 100% compatible with each other.

A bit overhyped, I say.  VMware has ONE Linux package, and it works on everything with GTK installed.  Sometimes you have to compile the kernel modules, but that's not hard - the installer automates that.  OpenOffice, same thing.  I could go on.

Quote
Sometimes you'll find an RPM that is for RedHat, but it doesn't work on your Mandrake install. Why not? Not all versions are the same.

Then get the Mandrake RPM.  They have no lack of RPMs.

Quote
An even worse problem with Linux is that it doesn't really have anybody guiding it to gain support from developers. How can Linux get support from developers? What is Linux? It's not 1 group or 1 company, it's many groups with many companies and each group is going a different way. It's hard to get support when Linux isn't exactly a unified group.

All the current developers (even the commercial ones) haven't had too big a problem.

Quote
The absolute worst problem with Linux is the mentality of Linux users.

:rolleyes: I needn't go further with this one.

Quote
Linux users use Linux because they hate Windows and they refuse to use BSD because "omg BSD is too closed source" (open to read, not as open to contribute to)

Yep, see what I roll my eyes at?

Quote
Although Linux is very popular, the qustion remains: What kind of company would actually want to support Linux when it's an ununified and somewhat incompatible clone of Unix with a user base that hates closed sourced (read: proprietary) software? It's just not worth it.

There are some companies already.  And I use closed-source software on Linux without issue...my favorite has been VMware, which I've mentioned before.  The whole "hates closed-source" thing comes from RMS and few others who would like to really use the HURD, not Linux.  I prefer free software, but don't mind using closed-source on Linux if it's benefical.

Quote
BSD is amazing for servers. It really has no place in the desktop market.

Didn't we just get done describing how "ununified" Linux was, and how that would stop it on the desktop?  And then you dismiss a more unified system?  Cripe, get a hold of yourself. ;)

Quote
BeOS and YellowTab are great operating systems. The problem is that they lack an enthusiast market, and that leads to a lack of software. Linux and Mac OS may not have close ties with software developers, and the majority of the users are fanatical nutcases (not all users), but they still get support simply because they're popular (actually Linux is the popular one, it's just a strange twist that you can compile Linux stuff on a Mac). If YellowTab had support from software developers, there's no doubt in my mind that its popularity would just explode.

This I can pretty much agree with.
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toadlife

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #116 on: 9 May 2005, 01:13 »
A few points....

FreeBSD makes for a kick-ass desktop. It just takes a bit more elbow grease to get it working.

Quote
Linux users use Linux because they hate Windows and they refuse to use BSD because "omg BSD is too closed source" (open to read, not as open to contribute to)

You have it backwards and are confuzzled a bit about how BSD development works. The linux users you are talking about do not like BSD because they think the BSD license is too open - not too closed. Esentially, they value freedom as long as it doesn't include freedoms that they don't approve of.

As for people not being able to contribute, AFAIK, anyone can submit a patch for their favorite flavor of BSD. Whether or not it gets implimented is up to the core team of developers.
:)

WMD

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #117 on: 9 May 2005, 02:58 »
Quote
Esentially, they value freedom as long as it doesn't include freedoms that they don't approve of.

The only freedom the GPL takes away is the freedom to remove freedom.  I don't see what the fuss is about. :confused:
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toadlife

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #118 on: 9 May 2005, 05:29 »
Quote from: WMD
The only freedom the GPL takes away is the freedom to remove freedom.  I don't see what the fuss is about. :confused:

That's a huge oversimplification there.

I never said I had a problem with the license. I have a problem with the extremist fringe group of GPL-fanboys who think think that no one should be allowed to keep source code to themselves.
:)

WMD

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Re: Muzzy, why does Windows rule?
« Reply #119 on: 9 May 2005, 06:21 »
Quote
I have a problem with the extremist fringe group of GPL-fanboys who think think that no one should be allowed to keep source code to themselves.

Those guys must not know their own license.  You don't have to release the source code if you don't distribute the software. ;)
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