All Things Microsoft > Microsoft as a Company
Windows not ready for the desktop YET
piratePenguin:
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---I'm saying you shouldn't blame driver problems on the operating system whether it be Windows, Linux or Mac OS. You should blame the hardware manfacturers, I suppose you could with Mac OS but that'd only be the case for Mac hardware.
--- End quote ---
Yes exactly, so there's no point in even discussing it for so damn long.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---Well I wouldn't say that, I'd say they should give Linux the same level of support as Windows & Mac OS.
--- End quote ---
That would suffice :D
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---In my opinion Linux has been stuck in a vicious circle for quite some time, here's my reasoning:
Lots of people, organizations and businesses don't use Linux because it doesn't fully support their hardware or they rely on a piece of proprietary software for which there is no Linux equivalent.
Manufacturers don't make Linux drivers and software vendors don't release Linux versions which isn't helped by the fact that many Linux users are GPL fanboys who hate proprietary software.
These two factors feed of each other and are alone strong enough to stop Linux from becoming the main operating system for quite some time if ever and this will be the same for any other free operating system.
--- End quote ---
I agree. Except it'll be the same for any other operating system, free or otherwise.
The hardware (and software) manufacturers really need to get their act together. Even if they just make their Windows drivers free software - they'd be ported pretty quick.
Once GNU/Linux overtakes Mac OS X, the manufacturers would wanna have a good reason for making Mac OS X drivers and not GNU/Linux drivers.
Aloone_Jonez:
Mac OS being owned by a hardware company helps a lot, also any operating system that's owned by a rich company has the advantage of being able to offer money.
I can only hope that OEM sales of Linux will increase and more companies will use it. There are already are both hardware and software companies supporting Linux and I hope this trend continues to improve.
RaZoR1394:
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---Of course being able to compile the kernel yourself is an advantage but my point was all drivers (except the ones need to boot) should be external to the kernel. For example if the kernel should only have ext3 driver (or wharever file system you use) built in so all the other drivers can be loaded. This would save resources because when I'm not reading my ntfs or FAT32 drive the driver doesn't need to be in memory.
Redhat doesn't, but it would be better if you could just download and compile another module that can be loaded on demand to read the ntfs drive instead of bloating up the kernel.
--- End quote ---
You can put all drivers external but that's just stupid as it messes up your lsmod and makes the computer slower. If you compile everything inside the kernel and only the ones you'll need you won't have sluggish problems. I don't see why you would wan't to recompile the kernel every week or so alternatively unload/load modules frequently because of driver support. It's not like the average person would bring home a new gadget every week.
Windows drivers are always loaded. They don't load on demand. The only problem I see in linux is that It's harder to recompile the kernel or make the modules than to click an .exe file. And you said you weren't able to remove them on demand?
As I said before Windows XP does not support auto loading of drivers. At least not by the looks of it in processmanager plus all compability problems when not uninstalled.
But guess what, practically Linux supports fast module loading but you'll do that manually. In linux you just do
#rmmod *modname*
and when you insert it
#insmod *modname*
--- Quote ---This Linux ntfs driver is pretty shitty as it only really supports read only access. I'm not makeing a point here because ntfs is Windows not Linux and read only access is good enough anyway.
Oh sorry I do have a point, the Linux ntfs driver isn't as good as the Windows driver because the people who wrote it did so by a process of reverse engineering - similar to how most Linux drivers are written.
--- End quote ---
The ntfs driver does support writing with the captive option and I know people who have been able to transfer a lot of files to the disc without problems, but yes it ins't safe. Why bitch with ntfs btw? Why not just create a spare fat32 partition.
--- Quote ---Sorry, while they may be anough to get your system booted no Linux distribution has contained drivers for my printer/scanner, winmodem, and the graphics card driver is always slow.
--- End quote ---
For people who have used Windows before It's pretty sad if their comps components won't work with all drivers provided but you should always check the compability list for Linux drivers before you buy anything. That's what I've done before I've bought my computers. You can't buy extremely rare hardware and say that the driver support sucks because the hardware not being compatible. I wasn't so sure about ATI and Nvidia cause I used Windows pretty often. That's why I choosed an ATI card.
In general most long-time linux users are either aware of the driver problems/incompability which makes them switch brands when buying a new one. Those who are using their older incompatible computers are becoming fewer.
--- Quote ---I thought Linux was supposed to be so stable a reformat is rarely needed. :D
--- End quote ---
I referred to Windows off course. I guess I wasn't clear.
--- Quote --- The disc that came with the printer?
You should just keep this in a safe place with the printer manual warranty ect.
That's your fault for loosing it, you should keep it in a safe place. :D
--- End quote ---
I didn't, some friends did.
--- Quote ---If they kept in in a safe place they wouldn't have this problem and all they need to do is download a small file from the internet anyway.
--- End quote ---
All soundblaster full packages are 100mb plus. Creative is a very common brand as their soundcards rock, specially for gamers. Another problem is that the current driver cd contains old mixer, surround testing apps and so on. Printers are another story.
--- Quote ---I can see how this could be a problem, the only possible advantage of hacker-written drivers is that manufacturer support is not needed to obtain the drivers.
--- End quote ---
No there are other advantages as well. Millions of other people can make modifications of the driver and optimize it as they wan't. There can exist several versions of the driver which may work better on different machines.
--- Quote ---Ok fair enough but lets not blame the operating system for driver problems as it's the manufacturer's fault.
--- End quote ---
Yes It's their fault because Microsoft include old ones when there are much better drivers available months ago for download. They just keep remanufacturing the same discs as the original XP plus the servicepacks which are often bugfixes not driverupdates. All they have to do is to update their disc when manufacturing. If they put the OS on DVD they could add all common driversets as .exe files on the disk. Similar how it is in linux. (as I did with nLite though only for my computer)
--- Quote ---I'd say the Windows driver model is better for the same reason the Mac model is better than Linux because the manufacturers support them something that Linux just can't help.
--- End quote ---
The driver model has nothing to do with manufacturers support. Many manufacturers have released proprietary drivers that are available as modules which are loadable and unloadble, not like in Windows where you need to uninstall the whole driverset and reboot.
--- Quote ---Now that is a very good idea, I think I'll need to upgrade though, while 256MB of RAM might be good enough for what I currently use my PC for I'll need more to fit two operating systems in memory but it might just be worth it.
--- End quote ---
Actually 256mb ram should be reserved just for the VMWare OS. I have 2gb ram and have reserved 512mb. That should be enough. So totally 1gb of ram should be recommended when using VMWare.
--- Quote ---All I was saying was that it seems strange a Windows driver binary compiled for a very old kernel works on the most recent kernel and a Linux driver designed for a very slightly older kernel won't work even though it's compiled from source.
--- End quote ---
It may not work correctly performance and functionality wise but It doesn't bring down the whole system like certain older Windows driver do when you put them on for ex Win XP SP2.
--- Quote --- Maybe I'll go back to the slightly older 2.4.x kernel the next time I can be bothered to install Linux.
--- End quote ---
I was referring the 2.6 kernel thingie to PiratePenguin as you can see.
--- Quote ---Yes it is a bit old, Windows 2000 was NT 5.0 and Windows XP sp2 is NT 5.1.26 - only a minor update which really takes this piss if you ask me. You pay though the nose for just a minor update with Microsoft software.
The kernel isn't the bad part of Windows anyway I think Cutler did a very good job. The bad part of Windows is all the other shit that's wrapped around the kernel.
--- End quote ---
Yes, true. I don't think that the DOS kernel would have suited so good in WinXP, lol. They were kind off forced to write a new one.
So simply my thoughts about drivers:
* Feature wise and compability wise Windows drivers are better.
* Fast unloading/loading does not exist in Windows. If you need to disable them you need to restart the computer or disable them in autostart if that even is possible.
* The distribution of the drivers is better in Linux as they are provided on for ex livediscs. On Windows disc they are few and you see below they are often old which will need to be updated later on.
* When recompiling to a new kernel you get all the driver updates. If you need proprietary you can download them separatly. In most cases people only need 1 or 2 propriatary drivers.
* Many drivers for chipsets like for ex bluetooth work for severel kinds of units not just a certain brand. The same can be noted for Wireless cards. motherboards and so on.
* Provided drivers on the Windows discs even SP2 are old . They should update them regularly and if they just use the extra space on the cd they could stick in some more. DVD's would be perfect.
Aloone_Jonez:
RaZoR1394,
I agee with most of your post but I do have a few issues. :D
--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---You can put all drivers external but that's just stupid as it messes up your lsmod and makes the computer slower.
--- End quote ---
Most other operating systems load the drivers separately and they work just fine.
--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---If you compile everything inside the kernel and only the ones you'll need you won't have sluggish problems. I don't see why you would wan't to recompile the kernel every week or so alternatively unload/load modules frequently because of driver support. It's not like the average person would bring home a new gadget every week.
--- End quote ---
What happens if you recompile the kernel with a bad driver?
--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---Windows drivers are always loaded. They don't load on demand. The only problem I see in linux is that It's harder to recompile the kernel or make the modules than to click an .exe file. And you said you weren't able to remove them on demand?
As I said before Windows XP does not support auto loading of drivers. At least not by the looks of it in processmanager plus all compability problems when not uninstalled.
But guess what, practically Linux supports fast module loading but you'll do that manually. In linux you just do
#rmmod *modname*
and when you insert it
#insmod *modname*
--- End quote ---
Thanks I didn't know about that.
--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---The ntfs driver does support writing with the captive option and I know people who have been able to transfer a lot of files to the disc without problems, but yes it ins't safe.
--- End quote ---
The captive option isn't a Linux ntfs driver, it's a wrapper for the existing Windows NTFS driver which is separate from the NT kernel - a wise design choice if you ask me. :D
--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---Why bitch with ntfs btw?
--- End quote ---
That was an example of how you need to recompile the kernel to add something (NTFS support).
--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 --- Why not just create a spare fat32 partition.
--- End quote ---
Just like I've done.
--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---For people who have used Windows before It's pretty sad if their comps components won't work with all drivers provided but you should always check the compability list for Linux drivers before you buy anything. That's what I've done before I've bought my computers. You can't buy extremely rare hardware and say that the driver support sucks because the hardware not being compatible. I wasn't so sure about ATI and Nvidia cause I used Windows pretty often. That's why I choosed an ATI card.
--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---In general most long-time linux users are either aware of the driver problems/incompability which makes them switch brands when buying a new one.
--- End quote ---
I agree not supporting open source software is a good enough reason to boycot any product.
--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---Those who are using their older incompatible computers are becoming fewer.
--- End quote ---
Which I can believe because hackers are writing drivers all the time and some companies are now supporting Linux.
--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---All soundblaster full packages are 100mb plus. Creative is a very common brand as their soundcards rock, specially for gamers. Another problem is that the current driver cd contains old mixer, surround testing apps and so on.
--- End quote ---
It's silly because I bet you the driver file small, often you get lots of shit you don't really need with drivers.
--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---No there are other advantages as well. Millions of other people can make modifications of the driver and optimize it as they wan't. There can exist several versions of the driver which may work better on different machines.
--- End quote ---
Sorry I forgot that one.
--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---Yes It's their fault because Microsoft include old ones when there are much better drivers available months ago for download. They just keep remanufacturing the same discs as the original XP plus the servicepacks which are often bugfixes not driverupdates. All they have to do is to update their disc when manufacturing. If they put the OS on DVD they could add all common driversets as .exe files on the disk. Similar how it is in linux. (as I did with nLite though only for my computer)
--- End quote ---
While it is nice for the CD to come with loads of drivers, I don't believe it's essential, in my opinion the operating system only needs be shipped with enough drivers to get the system booted. I take your point that Microsoft should update them more often but as long as there's enough on the CD to start the system up I can't see a problem.
--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---The driver model has nothing to do with manufacturers support. Many manufacturers have released proprietary drivers that are available as modules which are loadable and unloadble, not like in Windows where you need to uninstall the whole driverset and reboot.
--- End quote ---
I understand now, the driver model is more to do with the licencing.
--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---Actually 256mb ram should be reserved just for the VMWare OS. I have 2gb ram and have reserved 512mb. That should be enough. So totally 1gb of ram should be recommended when using VMWare.
--- End quote ---
I really do need an upgrade then as I only have 256MB of RAM on my system, mybe I could run Windows 98 and allocate 32MB for it.
--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---It may not work correctly performance and functionality wise but It doesn't bring down the whole system like certain older Windows driver do when you put them on for ex Win XP SP2.
--- End quote ---
It depends on the driver, a printer driver problem won't normally take down the whole system while a graphics driver might.
--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---Yes, true. I don't think that the DOS kernel would have suited so good in WinXP, lol.
--- End quote ---
True. :D
--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 --- They were kind off forced to write a new one.
--- End quote ---
The development of NT started way back in 1988 by Dave Cutler and it wasn't ready for the mainstreem untill 2000.
--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---
So simply my thoughts about drivers:
* Feature wise and compability wise Windows drivers are better.
* Fast unloading/loading does not exist in Windows. If you need to disable them you need to restart the computer or disable them in autostart if that even is possible.
* The distribution of the drivers is better in Linux as they are provided on for ex livediscs. On Windows disc they are few and you see below they are often old which will need to be updated later on.
* When recompiling to a new kernel you get all the driver updates. If you need proprietary you can download them separatly. In most cases people only need 1 or 2 propriatary drivers.
* Many drivers for chipsets like for ex bluetooth work for severel kinds of units not just a certain brand. The same can be noted for Wireless cards. motherboards and so on.
* Provided drivers on the Windows discs even SP2 are old . They should update them regularly and if they just use the extra space on the cd they could stick in some more. DVD's would be perfect.
--- End quote ---
I agree.
--- End quote ---
piratePenguin:
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---Most other operating systems load the drivers separately and they work just fine.
--- End quote ---
It's slightly faster to have the drivers in the kernel. But only the ones you use alot, the ones you only use now and again are better off as modules, although they'd usually be faster if they were in the kernel (but they'd always be in ram too).
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---What happens if you recompile the kernel with a bad driver?
--- End quote ---
Bad drivers don't get into the kernel source. Usually you compile a third party driver as a module, not into the kernel. Only compile the stuff that comes in the kernel source code into the kernel.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---The captive option isn't a Linux ntfs driver, it's a wrapper for the existing Windows NTFS driver which is separate from the NT kernel
--- End quote ---
Yes, and it works.
I really don't see the point in the kernel programmers in spending much more time trying to get NTFS write into the kernel. Even if they get it working now, it won't work for future versions of Windows. And if it works for Windows XP, it might'nt work for Windows 2000 (I heard they're different versions of NTFS).
It's only the Windows + GNU/Linuc dualbooters that have any use for Captive NTFS, usually, and they already have the Windows NTFS driver so... It makes sense,
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---That was an example of how you need to recompile the kernel to add something (NTFS support).
--- End quote ---
NTFS is *far* better off as a module IMO. I don't see much point in compiling NTFS *into* the kernel. It could make it less stable. It *will* make it bigger (and the kernel is always in ram, of course).
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---While it is nice for the CD to come with loads of drivers, I don't believe it's essential, in my opinion the operating system only needs be shipped with enough drivers to get the system booted. I take your point that Microsoft should update them more often but as long as there's enough on the CD to start the system up I can't see a problem.
--- End quote ---
Whenever I install any GNU/Linux distro, I *never* worry about drivers. I don't even think about them. The essential stuff (for almost all setups) is in the kernel, and the other drivers are compiled as modules. No non-free drivers either (usually), because it's just the stuff from the kernel source.
I love it!
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