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Windows not ready for the desktop YET

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piratePenguin:

--- Quote from: Jenda ---And the windoesn't kernel is...?
--- End quote ---
I have no idea, that's why I didn't mention it. I'd say they update it with Windows Update, but I dunno.

EDIT: I edited that part of my previous post...
"isn't even" is probably better.

RaZoR1394:

--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---My pro savage video card is slow under Linux, my leximark printer/scanner prints slowly and won't scan, my winmodem has a driver but it only works with the 2.4.x kernel. Yes I have downloaded and installed the relevant drivers.  I fail to see the advantage here, a kernel with lots of drivers suitable to run on a wide selection of hardware will be big, slow and bloated. It's very stupid how you need to recompile the kernel to add NTFS support.
--- End quote ---
 You will see the advantage when you compile a kernel that only contains what you need. I didn't say that the compiled kernel should contain all options available in the "make menuconfig". And why should NTFS be enabled as default in the kernel? The filesystem is a Windows one and should be considered a bonus. Also, many desktop distros already have support for ntfs. Servers which is where Linux is used most don't have any use for ntfs. at least not most of them. They probably use ext3, jfs, xfs, reiserfs or reiser4.  My main argument is that you get all your drivers you need with one cd, not 10 or 20. They are also up to date and should work better with the current software. I personally hate to install all drivers after a reformat as I have a lot of controllers, other peripherals and so on. It just isn't effective.  
--- Quote --- In general a decient product comes with good drivers, my Leximark printer scanner came with very good drivers and a great OCR too.
--- End quote ---
 That's true. I have a high end HP printer and it works fine with the CD driver in Windows, but you still need the disc or an internet connection to get a new one with bugfixes. I use DSL but I think it would be rather crappy to have for ex a 56k connection and download a 150mb driver package (audigy for ex) because of the CD being lost. I've read and heard a lot about this problem before, where the customers had to pay 10$ to get a new driver cd.  Think off needing to get a school work done on a Windows machine... You have no drivers installed for the printer and the disc is somehow bad and your internet connection is down. All you have is the Windows disc.  
--- Quote --- However my Cannon LBP-660 printer doesn't have a driver designed for NT5.1 (Windows XP) but I rung up support and they suggested using an old driver (NT4 I I think) and it works a treat.
--- End quote ---
 Yes, but that's because Canon is "alive". Many manufacturers end support for certain units and devices which get the customers left in dark like with my bluetooth dongle and probably like 5 gaming units.  
--- Quote --- It simply isn't fair to compare a Windows XP CD made in 2003 and a live Linux CD made in 2005. I personally don't expect the operating system to come with any drivers except for the generic ones required to boot up and install it. Drivers as far as I'm concerned are the responsibility of the hardware manufacturer this is why I don't blame driver problems on Windows or Linux.
--- End quote ---
 Yes It's fair because I'm referring to a XP SP2 cd, and It's nearly still the same regarding driver support as it was with original XP and SP1. Hardware manufacturers are the ones who have the best specifications of their stuff but I think they should collaborate more with open source developers so that it will be possible to integrate the drivers into the kernel.  
--- Quote --- Our personal experiances will vary, there's really no point in argueing about them. I've only had one problem with Windows XP it used to hang up when going to the screensaver but this was fixed by altering the power saving monitor configureation.
--- End quote ---
 Well, I was mainly thinking about the driver model in the two OS,s .  
--- Quote --- Lot's of prorams are unstable under WINE if they work at all, Protel, Electronics Work bench and Crocadile Clips all don't work and there are no decent Linux alternatives. To run Windows programs under VMWARE don't you need Windows anyway?
--- End quote ---
 Yes but you don't need to dualboot and you're able to enter the system pretty fast. It's not so bad really because you'll only use it when you'll need those "special" apps. I'm currently running XP SP2 in the virtual machine but If I want I could just put a Longhorn beta/alpha on it as I don't have to get scared about the system going down because the alpha/beta state. Soon I'll put OSX 10.4 under Pearpc which is available under linux. Will be pretty cool to experiment with.  
--- Quote from: "PiratePenguin" --- I'm using the 2.4 kernel and have no intention of switching to 2.6 for a while. 2.6.11.11, yuck. No worries with 2.4. Update the kernel less, and everything's working fine for me. Consider the whole compiling-the-kernel thing an extra bonus, something you won't get on Windows. The 2.6.11.11 kernel is, ahem, 2 days old. The 2.4.30 kernel isn't even 2 months old. It works. Use it.
--- End quote ---
 Yes I've heard about that but I don't understand why really. The 2.6 kernel is extremely stable at least for heavy gaming usage and heavy gcc compiling + some video rendering without any hitches. The 2.6 kernel is also much faster.  
--- Quote from: "Jenda" --- And the windoesn't kernel is...?
--- End quote ---
 Whoosh. OLD!! I haven't seen many kernel upgrades on Windows update or in the patches for a long time. It's mostly small fixes which probably are for modules anyway.

Aloone_Jonez:

--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---You will see the advantage when you compile a kernel that only contains what you need. I didn't say that the compiled kernel should contain all options available in the "make menuconfig".
--- End quote ---

Of course being able to compile the kernel yourself is an advantage but my point was all drivers (except the ones need to boot) should be external to the kernel. For example if the kernel should only have ext3 driver (or wharever file system you use) built in so all the other drivers can be loaded. This would save resources because when I'm not reading my ntfs or FAT32 drive the driver doesn't need to be in memory.


--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---And why should NTFS be enabled as default in the kernel? The filesystem is a Windows one and should be considered a bonus.
--- End quote ---

Yes, it is a bonus but that wasn't my point.


--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 --- Also, many desktop distros already have support for ntfs. Servers which is where Linux is used most don't have any use for ntfs. at least not most of them.
--- End quote ---

Redhat doesn't, but it would be better if you could just download and compile another module that can be loaded on demand to read the ntfs drive instead of bloating up the kernel.


--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---They probably use ext3, jfs, xfs, reiserfs or reiser4.
--- End quote ---

This Linux ntfs driver is pretty shitty as it only really supports read only access. I'm not makeing a point here because ntfs is Windows not Linux and read only access is good enough anyway.

Oh sorry I do have a point, the Linux ntfs driver isn't as good as the Windows driver because the people who wrote it did so by a process of reverse engineering - similar to how most Linux drivers are written.


--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 --- My main argument is that you get all your drivers you need with one cd, not 10 or 20. They are also up to date and should work better with the current software.
--- End quote ---

Sorry, while they may be anough to get your system booted   no Linux distribution has contained drivers for my printer/scanner, winmodem, and the graphics card driver is always slow.


--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 --- I personally hate to install all drivers after a reformat
--- End quote ---

I thought Linux was supposed to be so stable a reformat is rarely needed. :D


--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 --- as I have a lot of controllers, other peripherals and so on. It just isn't effective.    That's true. I have a high end HP printer and it works fine with the CD driver in Windows, but you still need the disc
--- End quote ---

The disc that came with the printer?
You should just keep this in a safe place with the printer manual warranty ect.


--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 --- or an internet connection to get a new one with bugfixes. I use DSL but I think it would be rather crappy to have for ex a 56k connection and download a 150mb driver package (audigy for ex)
--- End quote ---

I only have a 56k connection and the printer driver was well under 1MB.


--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---because of the CD being lost.
--- End quote ---

That's your fault for loosing it, you should keep it in a safe place. :D


--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 --- I've read and heard a lot about this problem before, where the customers had to pay 10$ to get a new driver cd.
--- End quote ---

If they kept in in a safe place they wouldn't have this problem and all they need to do is download a small file from the internet anyway.


--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 --- Think off needing to get a school work done on a Windows machine... You have no drivers installed for the printer and the disc is somehow bad and your internet connection is down. All you have is the Windows disc.
--- End quote ---

Or you could be in an even same position on a Linux machine, but even worse the printer driver you require simply doesn't exist. This wouln't bother me either way as I would just take the work to school on a disc.



--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---Yes, but that's because Canon is "alive".
--- End quote ---

Canon could've been dead and it wouln't have made any difference the driver I use on Windows XP (NT5.1) was designed for NT4 which is very old. The only way Canon being alive has benifited is I could ring the support, but I could've found this information on the Intenet anyway.


--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---Many manufacturers end support for certain units and devices which get the customers left in dark like with my bluetooth dongle and probably like 5 gaming units.
--- End quote ---

I can see how this could be a problem, the only possible advantage of hacker-written drivers is that manufacturer support is not needed to obtain the drivers.


--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---Yes It's fair because I'm referring to a XP SP2 cd, and It's nearly still the same regarding driver support as it was with original XP and SP1.
--- End quote ---

Ok fair enough but lets not blame the operating system for driver problems as it's the manufacturer's fault.


--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---Hardware manufacturers are the ones who have the best specifications of their stuff but I think they should collaborate more with open source developers
--- End quote ---

Yes I agree, the problem is manufacturers ofen want to keep their trade secretes - something not compatable with open source software.


--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 --- so that it will be possible to integrate the drivers into the kernel.
--- End quote ---

And make it bloated?
No it'd be better to keep them separate and load them when they're needed.


--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 --- Well, I was mainly thinking about the driver model in the two OS,s .
--- End quote ---

I'd say the Windows driver model is better for the same reason the Mac model is better than Linux because the manufacturers support them something that Linux just can't help.



--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---Yes but you don't need to dualboot and you're able to enter the system pretty fast. It's not so bad really because you'll only use it when you'll need those "special" apps. I'm currently running XP SP2 in the virtual machine
--- End quote ---

Now that is a very good idea, I think I'll need to upgrade though, while 256MB of RAM might be good enough for what I currently use my PC for I'll need more to fit two operating systems in memory but it might just be worth it.


--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---but If I want I could just put a Longhorn beta/alpha on it as I don't have to get scared about the system going down because the alpha/beta state. Soon I'll put OSX 10.4 under Pearpc which is available under linux. Will be pretty cool to experiment with.     Yes I've heard about that but I don't understand why really. The 2.6 kernel is extremely stable at least for heavy gaming usage and heavy gcc compiling + some video rendering without any hitches. The 2.6 kernel is also much faster.
--- End quote ---

All I was saying was that it seems strange a Windows driver binary compiled for a very old kernel works on the most recent kernel and a Linux driver designed for a very slightly older kernel won't work even though it's compiled from source.

Maybe I'll go back to the slightly older 2.4.x kernel the next time I can be bothered to install Linux.


--- Quote from: RaZoR1394 ---Whoosh. OLD!! I haven't seen many kernel upgrades on Windows update or in the patches for a long time. It's mostly small fixes which probably are for modules anyway.
--- End quote ---

Yes it is a bit old, Windows 2000 was NT 5.0 and Windows XP sp2 is NT 5.1.26 - only a minor update which really takes this piss if you ask me. You pay though the nose for just a minor update with Microsoft software.

The kernel isn't the bad part of Windows anyway I think Cutler did a very good job. The bad part of Windows is all the other shit that's wrapped around the kernel.

piratePenguin:

--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---Ok fair enough but lets not blame the operating system for driver problems as it's the manufacturer's fault.
--- End quote ---
So WTH are ye going on about?

Manufacturers aren't giving GNU/Linux the support it deserves, they're giving Windows and Mac OS X too much support.
The Linux kernel could be fcking perfect and the manufacturers still wouldn't support it.
When enough people start using it, the manufacturers will start supporting GNU/Linux properly (assuming they're not under a don't-support-GNU/Linux contract by MS or someone), then you can look forward to having your printer print properly, your scanner scan, and your graphics card work, Aloone.

Aloone_Jonez:

--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---So WTH are ye going on about?

--- End quote ---


I'm saying you shouldn't blame driver problems on the operating system whether it be Windows, Linux or Mac OS. You should blame the hardware manfacturers, I suppose you could with Mac OS but that'd only be the case for Mac hardware.


--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---Manufacturers aren't giving GNU/Linux the support it deserves, they're giving Windows and Mac OS X too much support.
--- End quote ---

Well I wouldn't say that, I'd say they should give Linux the same level of support as Windows & Mac OS.


--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---The Linux kernel could be fcking perfect and the manufacturers still wouldn't support it.
When enough people start using it, the manufacturers will start supporting GNU/Linux properly (assuming they're not under a don't-support-GNU/Linux contract by MS or someone), then you can look forward to having your printer print properly, your scanner scan, and your graphics card work, Aloone.
--- End quote ---
In my opinion Linux has been stuck in a vicious circle for quite some time, here's my reasoning:

Lots of people,  organizations and businesses don't use Linux because it doesn't fully support their hardware or they rely on a piece of proprietary software for which there is no Linux equivalent.

Manufacturers don't make Linux drivers and software vendors don't release Linux versions which isn't helped by the fact that many Linux users are GPL fanboys who hate proprietary software.

These two factors feed of each other and are alone strong enough to stop Linux from becoming the main operating system for quite some time if ever and this will be the same for any other free operating system.

Don't worry though I working getting Linux to do what I want even if just on an old PC.

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