Operating Systems > Linux and UNIX
gnu=borg - discuss
Jenda:
--- Quote ---I updated my sig to be more offensive.
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Great. But failed - this one's funny. :-D
piratePenguin:
--- Quote from: Jenda ---I must say I will miss your GNU avatar. I hope you plan to return to it yet.
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:D done.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---SPICE isn't very user friendly
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But it works. And once you master it (doesn't take very long), that's you sorted.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---and it's not just simulation
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Oh right.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---It is if the author is relying on the source code for their wealth.
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How is sharing source code equal to sharing wealth? Free software can be sold just the same way as non-free software.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---Since when have you rented a house from the aforementioned?
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Go figure :rolleyes:.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez --- We're talking about software here, not renting accommodation.
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It was an analogy. Sheezus.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---I rest my case
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Great!
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---What you're suggesting is forcing the GPL on everyone
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Where in the fuck are you getting this from?
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---which is more than communism, it's totalitarianism
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:rolleyes:
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---and how do you plan to inforce this?
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I'll have anyone who gets in my way murdered and have them dumped in the river Liffey :rolleyes:.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---Software oten contains other media like music and films so if a company releases a computer game do they have to licence the music and films under the GPL to? Do they just have to release the source code? Can they keep everything else under a triditional proprietary licence?
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I'll have to discuss that with General Stallman and the rest of the council.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---You don't know what you're missing if you refuse to use a piece of software just because it isn't free, for all you know it could be brilliant and better than any free software, oh well that's just your loss.
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All the software I currently use is free software. Should I ditch Firefox for Internet Explorer and GNU/Linux for Windows? The GIMP for Photoshop, Inkscape for Freehand, GAIM for MSN Messenger/ICQ/Yahoo! Messsenger, and irssi for Gamers.IRC?
I've used all the software I just listed, and the software I use currently, I prefer.
Aloone_Jonez:
--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---:D done.
But it works. And once you master it (doesn't take very long), that's you sorted.
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That's often the case but the staff where I work are far too busy to learn it.
--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---How is sharing source code equal to sharing wealth? Free software can be sold just the same way as non-free software.
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Yes, but it doesn't stop others from stealing your software or using it without paying for it, also once you GPL it becomes copywrighted by the free software foundation so technically it's not your software anymore.
--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---Go figure :rolleyes:.
It was an analogy. Sheezus.
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Alright, I'll use the same analogy, under the totalitarian policy you're describing you wouldn't be allowed to own the house in the first place let alone rent it to anyone.
--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---Where in the fuck are you getting this from?
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You keep saying "proprietary is the problem", so I'm assuming you mean the GPL is the solution, which would mean forcing the it on everyone - is this correct?
--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---I'll have to discuss that with General Stallman and the rest of the council.
--- End quote ---
Exactly, it simply isn't practical to force the GPL on everyone without scrapping all other copyright law, which on one extreme could mean even your holiday snaps are no longer your property anymore.
--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---All the software I currently use is free software. Should I ditch Firefox for Internet Explorer and GNU/Linux for Windows? The GIMP for Photoshop, Inkscape for Freehand, GAIM for MSN Messenger/ICQ/Yahoo! Messsenger, and irssi for Gamers.IRC?
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No, use what suits you best and if it's GPL then so be it.
--- Quote from: piratePenguin ---I've used all the software I just listed, and the software I use currently, I prefer.
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That's your choice and (I hope you've tried propietary alternatives as well), for example you might be fine using OpenOffice, instead of MS Office (I am too) but others might not because it lacks a grammar checker and decent formula editor.
The GPL system is great, I really like the idea software can be free in every possible way and it can be a communist paradise where everyone does their bit for the good of the community. I also support the idea that if you create a piece of software you have the freedom to do with it what you will, this includes not releasing the source, and only allowing people to use it if they agree to certain terms and conditions. GPL people often think too much about the rights of the users and neglect the rights of the creator(s) of software who should quite rightly have the final in their creation's fate.
worker201:
Real computer users believe that open-source is a model that works, and it has proven to work better (over and over again) than any proprietary model. By extension, real users know that all source will be opened eventually. There WILL be a day in our future where the paid software designers at Adobe (for example) just can't compete with all the free designers and debuggers out there on the net working to make a raster graphics app that kicks ass and is open and free. At that time, Photoshop and its proprietary license will be over. We don't have to force anyone to open their source. The economics of net-based development will force them to do it. Proprietary software is all about economics - if they can't make back their money, the internal development cycle will end. At that point, they will either move to an open source model, or die.
I seriously suggest you all read "The Cathedral and the Bazzaar" by ESR. He explains it well, and offers the proof. Why spend money on debuggers (who hate debugging) when you can get people who are love debugging for free? ESR explains why Adobe and Microsoft like to spend money, and why Linus doesn't have to. Really, it's a good article.
piratePenguin:
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---That's often the case but the staff where I work are far too busy to learn it.
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They've learned so much about electronics and they can't learn how to use a simple program...
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---Yes, but it doesn't stop others from stealing your software or using it without paying for it
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What do you mean by "stealing"?
In what way does any specific non-free software licence stop people from using it without paying for it?
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---also once you GPL it becomes copywrighted by the free software foundation so technically it's not your software anymore.
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WTF?
The licence itself is copyright by the FSF. Whatever you write is copywrite by you and licenced under whatever version of the GPL (assuming that's what you chose) you chose.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---Alright, I'll use the same analogy, under the totalitarian policy you're describing you wouldn't be allowed to own the house in the first place let alone rent it to anyone.
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What fucking "totalitarian policy" am I describing?
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---You keep saying "proprietary is the problem", so I'm assuming you mean the GPL is the solution, which would mean forcing the it on everyone - is this correct?
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No, I never mentioned forcing anything on any-fucking-body.
I believe that non-free software is a problem, so I will avoid it, bash it and whatever, and support free software instead.
Just like if you believe Microsoft is a problem, you avoid it (well obviously you don't), bash it and whatever, and support the alternatives to Microsoft products. IT DOESN'T FUCKING MEAN HANGING BILLY G AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO USES MICROSOFT PRODUCTS (and I know noone ever suggested that, but I never suggested the shit you're talking about either.)! Most likely, it would mean changing the law so Microsoft or any other big companies can't become so powerful or whatever.
Well in this case, I'm not talking about setting up a communist/totalitarian "policy" or system or whatever the fuck you're talking about. I'm just gonna keep doing my thing (avoiding and bashing non-free software and supporting free software) and hope that more people follow.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---Exactly, it simply isn't practical to force the GPL on everyone without scrapping all other copywright law, which on one extreme could mean that even your holiday snaps are no longer your property anymore.
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What the fuck are you on about?
BTW, I was just playing along when I mentioned "General Stallman" and all that.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---No, use what suits you best and if it's GPL then so be it.
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Don't say GPL when you mean free software, it makes no sense.
And like I said, I'm going to avoid non-free software just like anyone who doesn't like Microsoft might avoid Microsoft products.
The fact that all the free software is better for me than the non-free alternatives is just a bonus. I'd still be using Firefox even if Opera cost nothing to buy, had no banner ads and simply kicked the shit outta Firefox.
And (if/)when Firefox's market share and support diminishes (to Opera), the fact that I support it will make all the more difference.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---That's your choice and (I hope you've tried the propietary alternatives as well)
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I have. And in the future, I might accidentally try them and fall in love with them, but I won't ever use them full-time solong as I can help it.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---for example you might be fine using OpenOffice, instead of MS Office (as I am too) but others might not because it lacks a grammar checker and decent formula editor.
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I haven't ever forced GNU/Linux or OpenOffice.org or Firefox on anyone (I have educated some poeple on them and a few of them now use Firefox (by their own choice)), and I don't intend on it. I know noone personally who uses GNU/Linux full-time. I'm the only registered GNU/Linux user in my county, last I checked. I haven't invaded my neighbours, or anyone in my house (I've four older brothers who all have their own computers. All bar one use Windows XP (the other using Mac OS X on a powerbook)), and installed GNU/Linux on their computers or the like.
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---The GPL system is great
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Do you actually mean GPL or free software?
--- Quote from: Aloone_Jonez ---I really like the idea that software can be free in every possible way and can be a communist paradise where everyone does their bit for the good of the community. I also support the idea that if you create a piece of software you have the freedom to do with it what you will, this includes not releasing the source, and only allowing people to use it if they agree to certain terms and conditions. GPL people often think too much about the rights of the users and neglect the rights of the creator(s) of software who should quite rightly have the final in their creation's fate.
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And when they do decide "their creation's fate", and it's a big mess of restrictions, I believe that everybody should (by their own choice) avoid that software, like I do and will continue to do.
--- Quote from: worker201 ---I seriously suggest you all read "The Cathedral and the Bazzaar" by ESR. He explains it well, and offers the proof. Why spend money on debuggers (who hate debugging) when you can get people who are love debugging for free? ESR explains why Adobe and Microsoft like to spend money, and why Linus doesn't have to. Really, it's a good article.
--- End quote ---
Will do. Even if I wasn't all-that impressed by one article I read by him (I think you can guess which one that was).
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