MS-DOS Date

[worker201]

I think you're using the word love too much, I don't love my computer, I don't love my stereo, I don't even love my car for fuck sake, what's you obsession with love? Just because you use something it doesn't mean you love it.

You know, I used to think the same way.  But then I got an Apple.  And I absolutely love it, even 2 years after opening the box.  I think everyone ought to experience the joys of ownership and companionship that come free in every Apple box.  It occasionally clouds my judgement of what computers are and what they could/should be.  That's not a bad thing.  I think the IT world would be a much better place if more people cared about their computers.

Oh yeah inferior open source replacements. :rolleyes:

Just a reminder, that open source replacements are not always inferior.  In fact, I haven't used an open source program yet that can be compared feature to feature and design goal to design goal with a popular proprietary program.  They are different, and they may not do exactly what you want them to do or expect them to do, but I think 'inferior' is an inappropriate word to describe this.

[WMD]

That's a fair point to, but it's not entierly their fault that they don't support other platforms as they probably don't know any better and even if they did they wouldn't support Linux because of the Linux fanboys hate of proprietary $oftwarez.

I'm a Linux fanboy.  And I love it when I get to try out some proprietary software for my OS.  I see it as a sign of better support for it.  I frequently use the nVidia X driver, Opera, VMware, and RealPlayer (which, btw, is much better on Linux than on Windows).  I think the above software makes my Linux usage more enjoyable, and I'd love it for more companies to join in.  I don't necessarily prefer such software over open-source, but it's always good to have and work with.  The only time I dislike proprietary software is when the owner of it uses that proprietary nature to further its own interests (other than simple business profit and advancement, of course).

[Aloone_Jonez]

The only time I dislike proprietary software is when the owner of it uses that proprietary nature to further its own interests (other than simple business profit and advancement, of course).

I couldn't agree more. :thumbup:

The only time I ever see this "Winblow$ Xpee" crappy-speak is from yourself and skyman. Noone else here, other than the occasional troll, uses it.

We're generally more professional than "Winblow$ Xpee B$ODomize$", so either you'd better get your eyes checked, or have a bit of respect.

My point was I'm sick of hearing how Windows is supposidly unstable and how it's inherrintly insecure when neither of which are true if you know what you're doing.

Most GNU/Linux distributions ship with Java and all sorts of other non-free stuff. And when they don't, the first thing 90% of it's users do when they've installed the distribution is install Java or some other non-free software that they want.

Fare enough, I suppose I shouldn't have lumped all Linux users in the same pile as the hardcode GNU fanboys like yourself, can't you see? You're attitude to proprietary software is actually giving Linux users a bad name.

Er, I'd assume the wine guys would be in alot of legal trouble if they used that code.

I didn't mean to imply they should directly rip the code, they'd only need to examine it and get an idea of what all the hidden APIs do and write their own inplementations and if the Windows code is really that crap then they would rather not use it anyway.

You know, I used to think the same way. But then I got an Apple. And I absolutely love it, even 2 years after opening the box. I think everyone ought to experience the joys of ownership and companionship that come free in every Apple box. It occasionally clouds my judgement of what computers are and what they could/should be. That's not a bad thing. I think the IT world would be a much better place if more people cared about their computers.

How evil you love some proprietary software!

Just a reminder, that open source replacements are not always inferior. In fact, I haven't used an open source program yet that can be compared feature to feature and design goal to design goal with a popular proprietary program. They are different, and they may not do exactly what you want them to do or expect them to do, but I think 'inferior' is an inappropriate word to describe this.

This depends on the software and you what you expect from it. In my opinion if I'm using one piece of software that fulfills all my needs and I switch to another that doesn't then that piece of software is inferior as far as I'm concerned.

[piratePenguin]

Fare enough, I suppose I shouldn't have lumped all Linux users in the same pile as the hardcode GNU fanboys like yourself

Damn right.

can't you see? You're attitude to proprietary software

My attitude being: I won't install non-free software on my computer so long as I can help it. And fortunetly there is plenty enough free software about the place that I can help it.

is actually giving Linux users a bad name.

OK so obviously you see my attitude towards non-free software as a bad thing. Hold it against me, not against anyone else, especially the "Linux" advocates.

Some amount of Muslims have been involved in terorist activity (bad), don't hold that against every Muslim in the world (especially the Christian-Muslims ).

I didn't mean to imply they should directly rip the code, they'd only need to examine it and get an idea of what all the hidden APIs do and write their own inplementations and if the Windows code is really that crap then they would rather not use it anyway.

I dunno if they're allowd to or what.

[worker201]

(especially the Christian-Muslims ).

???????????????????????????????
What are you smoking?

[Aloone_Jonez]

My attitude being: I won't install non-free software on my computer so long as I can help it. And fortunetly there is plenty enough free software about the place that I can help it.
OK so obviously you see my attitude towards non-free software as a bad thing.

Yes I do.

Hold it against me, not against anyone else, especially the "Linux" advocates.

I can't help but feel that when representitaves of proprietary software companies encounter people like your self on Linux forums they form a the oppinion that the Linux userbase doesn't want their software.

Some amount of Muslims have been involved in terorist activity (bad), don't hold that against every Muslim in the world (especially the Christian-Muslims ).
I dunno if they're allowd to or what.

Well if this small number of muslims stopped being terrorists then they would stop giving Islam a bad name, just like if you dropped your self righteous attitude towards proprietary software you would stop giving Linux users a bad name.

P.S. what do mean by "Christian-Muslims"?

[piratePenguin]

???????????????????????????????
What are you smoking?

What, have you got something against Christian-Muslims?

Only messing. The Christian-Muslims are the Linux-GNU/Linux advocates. They don't exist. I was joking.
:p

[piratePenguin]

Yes I do.

Good. Well, let me explain why I have this attitude towards non-free software then.

Fundamentally, the developers of non-free software are selfish (And I don't care what their cause is. Making a living or whatnot. It doesn't change the fact.) and inherently evil (Maybe not so much as Hitler was, but I never suggested that.).

Selfishness/evil might well be the basis of capitalism, and I might well see selfishness/evil everywhere around me, but that is no excuse to excuse it. So I don't excuse it.

I complain! I fight! And when there is an alternative (which there is for software), I support the alternative instead.

Am I a luney? Should I wake up to the real world? Well, I am awake, and I'm living in the same world as you.

I can't help but feel that when representitaves of proprietary software companies encounter people like your self on Linux forums they form a the oppinion that the Linux userbase doesn't want their software.

Well, tough shit for them.
A more educated opinion would be that a (small) subset of GNU/Linux users won't use install or use non-free software on their own computers.

Well if this small number of muslims stopped being terrorists then they would stop giving Islam a bad name

Well those Muslim terrorists don't (AFAIK (which isn't much)) have much of a cause.

Well free software advocates like myself do.

And some people will say that we give GNU/Linux or "Linux" a bad name. Others will say that we give GNU/Linux a good name. It's like anything. Some will like, some will dislike.

just like if you dropped your self righteous attitude towards proprietary software you would stop giving Linux users a bad name.

I'd also stop giving them a good name, and be giving up on the cause.

[hm_murdock]

Penguin,

What he means is that you can be firmly against proprietary software, and not be constantly badmouthing it.

[piratePenguin]

Penguin,

What he means is that you can be firmly against proprietary software, and not be constantly badmouthing it.

Where do I "constantly" badmouth non-free software? I just don't install it on my computer and support it as least as I possibly.

[Aloone_Jonez]

Where do I "constantly" badmouth non-free software? I just don't install it on my computer and support it as least as I possibly.

Oh yes you do badmouth it, do I really have to give an example?

Good. Well, let me explain why I have this attitude towards non-free software then.

Fundamentally, the developers of non-free software are selfish (And I don't care what their cause is. Making a living or whatnot. It doesn't change the fact.) and inherently evil (Maybe not so much as Hitler was, but I never suggested that.).

Well one day you'll have to get a job and earn money and I can't see you sharing all your wealth so then you'll be being selfish.

Selfishness/evil might well be the basis of capitalism, and I might well see selfishness/evil everywhere around me, but that is no excuse to excuse it. So I don't excuse it.

Tough shit matey, when you start earning you'll start contributing to the capitalist ragime running Irland.

I complain! I fight! And when there is an alternative (which there is for software), I support the alternative instead.

Good for you, but I'd rather people like yourself campaign for something more constuctive.

Am I a luney?

Yes.

Should I wake up to the real world?

Yes.
 

Well, I am awake, and I'm living in the same world as you.

You may be awake and living in the real world but you're certainly aren't fully alert as you have no experiance of working in real industry, this is a part of the real world you have yet to see.

Well, tough shit for them.
A more educated opinion would be that a (small) subset of GNU/Linux users won't use install or use non-free software on their own computers.
Well those Muslim terrorists don't (AFAIK (which isn't much)) have much of a cause.

Well free software advocates like myself do.

And some people will say that we give GNU/Linux or "Linux" a bad name. Others will say that we give GNU/Linux a good name. It's like anything. Some will like, some will dislike.
I'd also stop giving them a good name, and be giving up on the cause.

That depends on your point of view but; one group of people (the proprietary software companies) have considerable resources (in the form of capital) to offer you, while the other (GPL fanboy club) are mostly made up of children and students who can only offer their time, I know which I'd rather have on my side.

In my opinion the best way to attack Microsoft is to use alternatives to thier products (as I'm sure you agree) but this is where our similarities end. I don't care whether the alternatives are proprietary or free because just not using MS porducts will hurt them and also encourage innovation by other companies. Oh yes I forgot to mention the fact that I use Windows but that's because it'd be such a huge inconvenience not too and I don't think MS are worth the trouble. I support OpenOffice, Opera and Thunderbird and if everyone did the same MS would be in more than enough trouble even if they kept Windows and lost all their other product I'd be more than satisfied.

Why should people (like you) support proprietary software for Linux?

Simple, because proprietary developers will start to develop and improve Linux versions of ther Windows products and if this happens Linux will become more attractive to people migrating away from Windows. Hopefully these companies will then start to invest money in Linux too, who knows they could even share some of their code too. Look at sun for example, Star Office was proprietary for years until they released OpenOffice, Opera is now free as in beer, who knows one day it might become truely free as well.

[Jack2000]

Dudes you'v got problems

[piratePenguin]

Oh yes you do badmouth it, do I really have to give an example?

Yes.

Well one day you'll have to get a job and earn money and I can't see you sharing all your wealth so then you'll be being selfish.

Quite right.

Tough shit matey, when you start earning you'll start contributing to the capitalist ragime running Irland.

Quite right.


WTF do you expect me to do? If I don't be selfish to the point that I have no choice on the matter, what more can one ask?

I have a choice on pretty much all the software I use. Just like everyone else with their own computer. I can install Windows or GNU/Linux, I'll pick GNU/Linux, the fact that it's free software being a huge contributor there. Firefox, Opera. Firefox. Same.

Good for you, but I'd rather people like yourself campaign for something more constuctive.

I'd rather campaign for something I feel strongly about more than something "more constructive".

You may be awake and living in the real world but you're certainly aren't fully alert as you have no experiance of working in real industry, this is a part of the real world you have yet to see.

I amn't fully alert because I have no experience of working in real industry... Of course!

That depends on your point of view

That's exactly my point.

one group of people (the proprietary software companies) have considerable resources (in the form of capital) to offer you, while the other (GPL fanboy club) are mostly made up of children and students who can only offer their time, I know which I'd rather have on my side.

I think that's more commercial versus hobyists.

Interesting point about the "GPL fanboy club" being "mostly made up of children and students". Can you back it up, please?

Why should people (like you) support proprietary software for Linux?

Since when has that been the question?

Anyhow, I just wish RMS and friends never released the LGPL (thereby inviting non-free software along). I made a long enough post about this before and I ain't doing it agian.

As long as I'm never under too much pressure to install some non-free program on my free setup, I don't mind as much.

[WMD]

One vote for Moron Zone.

[Aloone_Jonez]

Why?
A crappy MS product help thread has generated an intelligent debate, what's so moronic about this?

Yes.

You describe it as an insult to humanity.

WTF do you expect me to do? If I don't be selfish to the point that I have no choice on the matter, what more can one ask?

You know if you look at it that way proprietary software is really no more evil than earning money.

I have a choice on pretty much all the software I use. Just like everyone else with their own computer. I can install Windows or GNU/Linux, I'll pick GNU/Linux, the fact that it's free software being a huge contributor there. Firefox, Opera. Firefox. Same.

I feel we're going round in circles now.

I amn't fully alert because I have no experience of working in real industry... Of course!

That's true alright.

I think that's more commercial versus hobyists.

Yes, that's right commercial software is where the real money is, and yes some of it is open source, and yes we have established how it's not as efficent at generating revinue.

Interesting point about the "GPL fanboy club" being "mostly made up of children and students". Can you back it up, please?

Yes, there are companies like Sun and IBM doing their bit but they are also pro-proprietary software, the only people who are anti-proprietary are mainly people who don't have a commercial interest in software like the groups of people listed in my quote above.

Since when has that been the question?

So it wasn't the question I was just making a point and now you're agruing with it in your quote below which is fare enough.

Anyhow, I just wish RMS and friends never released the LGPL (thereby inviting non-free software along). I made a long enough post about this before and I ain't doing it agian.

Why is the LGPL bad? What's so bad about companies being allowed to develop non-free software for Linux?

Go on do me a favour and provide a valid argument to counter the last paragraph of my previous post. If you want the total amount of proprietary software in the world to decline then your best bet it to enourage it's use on the Linux platform especially when it comes to pushing developers to create Linux versions of their Windows programs. I hope you can figure out why this is  but I've got a feeling I'll have to explain it to you.

As long as I'm never under too much pressure to install some non-free program on my free setup, I don't mind as much.

That's the good thing about Linux, you have a choice.